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Staff Travel Stripped after Mistake.

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Snow1964

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I think the summary of opinion here is that the OP has lost all spouse privileges and is very unlikely to get them back.

However, it appears that their partner has been unjustly treated, well beyond the guidelines laid down by the industry, and should be appealing, with the help of their union.
I question if it is harsh. If the partner gave a spouse pass and it was misused (as in travelling to work, not leisure) then surely it is their responsibility to have ensured it was only used when valid.

They failed to ensure was used correctly within the rules (even if it was partner that used it wrongly), but it remains the employees responsibility. So if the employee is lax, losing the privilege seems fair, not harsh.
 
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CyrusWuff

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I suspect that part of the issue is that both parties were previously Active staff, so the OP will have their own record at Rail Staff Travel.
 

AlterEgo

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I question if it is harsh. If the partner gave a spouse pass and it was misused (as in travelling to work, not leisure) then surely it is their responsibility to have ensured it was only used when valid.

They failed to ensure was used correctly within the rules (even if it was partner that used it wrongly), but it remains the employees responsibility. So if the employee is lax, losing the privilege seems fair, not harsh.
The point is, what has happened is specifically outside the rules and punishments which are prescribed for those misdeeds, as has been discussed and evidenced upthread.

In this situation, the employee is not responsible for the misdeed of their spouse (in this case the OP is the spouse). Which is quite right. Why should something my wife did result in a disciplinary outcome for me?
 

185

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Where Leisure travel is specified on a spouse TOC pass, it means that - however some TOCs seem to have relaxed this, given the amount of spouses I see clearly travelling for work. Often these are spouses of rather senior people - just imagine TIRing them.. think my locker would be thrown out of the depot window ?!! :D

Anyway... if the TOC is not responsive, as suggested above, the RSTL appeals process is the first step in asking them to reconsider their blanket removal of both of you which, in my opinion does seem a little harsh. RSTL have mostly exercised pretty good common sense judgement over the last few years - however if, in your opinion the RSTL's decision does not seem fair (assuming this a DfTO TOC) you may wish to write to the DFTO Waterloo offices, politely asking them to review RSTL's decision.
 

Haywain

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I feel there is more to this than we are being told. It would seem highly unusual for travel facilities to be withdrawn without the employee being given an opportunity to state their case.
 

Krokodil

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I would dispute that there is actually a place of employment. If the job is a fully remote working job then it is just that. Therefore the idea of using travel facilities to get to and from work cannot possibly happen.
The rules posted above also include business travel

I question if it is harsh. If the partner gave a spouse pass and it was misused (as in travelling to work, not leisure) then surely it is their responsibility to have ensured it was only used when valid.

They failed to ensure was used correctly within the rules (even if it was partner that used it wrongly), but it remains the employees responsibility. So if the employee is lax, losing the privilege seems fair, not harsh.
The rule is that only the staff member can jeopardise travel for the whole family, dependants only jeopardise their own.
 

saismee

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It's not entirely clear what other pass this was, but it seems they produced one pass (a duty travel pass?) which they would know not to be valid and knew they should not have had anyway, then produced another, legitimately held spouse pass, but which they also knew they could not use.
I interpret the sentence as the RPI preemptively informing OP that they can't use their staff facilities, assuming that the card was their old duty travel one before seeing it. We still need clarification from OP.
 

greyman42

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Here are the Travel Irregularity Guidelines from RDG​

Examples of misuse where a warning is given​

The offender will be given a warning in regard to their future use of travel facilities and advised that these will be permanently withdrawn if the offence is repeated.
  • Alteration of one date on a Staff Travel Card provided it is not in the final available box on the card.
  • Active employees using a Staff Travel Card to purchase privilege tickets for residential travel to work or a place of education (this practice is permitted for travel between a temporary place of residence and a place of employment or education for a period not exceeding 14 days).
  • Retired employees and spouses/partners and dependent children of active or retired employees using a Staff Travel Card to purchase privilege tickets for residential travel to a place of education (this practice is permitted for travel between a temporary place of residence and a place of education for a period not exceeding 14 days).
  • Travelling on a published restricted service, or contravening any other aspect of the staff travel restrictions.

Examples of misuse where the penalty is withdrawal of travel facilities for a minimum period of 12 months​

In addition to withdrawal of travel facilities the offender will be given a warning as to their future use of travel facilities and advised that their travel facilities will be permanently withdrawn if the offence is repeated.
  • Alteration of the date in the final available box on a Staff Travel Card.
  • Alteration of more than one date on a Staff Travel Card.
  • Travelling in First Class Accommodation (or equivalent) when not eligible.

Examples of misuse for which the penalty is permanent withdrawal of travel facilities​

  • A repeat of any irregularity detailed in the previous sections.
  • Transfer of or attempted transfer of a card or pass to another person.
  • Transfer of or attempted transfer of a Privilege Rate Ticket, purchased with a Staff Travel Card or TOC Privilege Card to another person.
  • An attempt to use a forgery of a card, pass or ticket (includes a photocopy of the original).
  • Alteration/Defacement of card, pass or ticket details including use of cling film, plastic inserts or other such devices.
  • Using a card, pass or ticket beyond availability.
  • Travelling without a valid ticket. This includes subsequent use of a Staff Travel Card for free travel without dating a box on the card having been warned on previous occasions by a revenue protection officer (see Procedure for Dealing with Travel Irregularities section A1).
  • Using a card, pass or ticket for residential travel (to work or a place of education) or business journeys, where it is only valid for leisure travel purposes. This does not apply when used for unpaid voluntary work.
  • Retired employees and Spouses/partners or dependent children of active or retired employees using a Staff Travel Card to purchase a privilege ticket for journeys to work.
  • Making a false application for spouse/partner or dependent child travel facilities to be issued to an ineligible person.
  • Permitting a spouse/partner or dependent child who is no longer eligible to receive travel facilities to retain the cards, passes or tickets on issue to them.
  • Failure to notify the issuing office that a spouse/partner or dependent child is no longer eligible to receive travel facilities and where possible return their cards, passes or tickets for cancellation.
  • Fraudulent applications for refunds or delay repay payments.
If warnings are given, does the card/pass holder receive a warning in writing?
 

185

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The rules posted above also include business travel
If all else fails, on an almost flat-earther technicality, could it be argued that the passenger had not actually reached their place of employment yet, thus at the time of the ticket irregularity was technically still unemployed, and therefore could not have been traveling for business purposes?

That said, regardless of the spouse pass held, an invalid duty pass was initially shown in error, and in my opinion it's likely that this incident stems primarily from producing that.
 

Haywain

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If all else fails, on an almost flat-earther technicality, could it be argued that the passenger had not actually reached their place of employment yet, thus at the time of the ticket irregularity was technically still unemployed, and therefore could not have been traveling for business purposes?
The spouse's pass issued is for leisure use only and no amount of spin will make the journey one that was being made for leisure purposes.
 

43096

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If all else fails, on an almost flat-earther technicality, could it be argued that the passenger had not actually reached their place of employment yet, thus at the time of the ticket irregularity was technically still unemployed, and therefore could not have been traveling for business purposes?
That's a pretty pointless piece of arguing a technicality. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. It is absolutely clear that regardless of employment situation, this is not leisure travel.
 

ChilliSauce

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That's a pretty pointless piece of arguing a technicality. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. It is absolutely clear that regardless of employment situation, this is not leisure travel.
I believe in the rules for safeguarded staff if the dependant commits the travel irregularity then the facilities are removed from that dependant .. if however the travel irregularity is commited by the employee or the former employee in the case of retired staff then the facilities are removed from themselves and the dependants.

Of course the rules for non safeguarded might just be different in that it only needs 1 travel irregulatity by any card holder to result in the facilities being withdrawn from the employee and all the dependants. Of course non safeguarded, unlike safeguardes, do not take the facilities into retirement.
 

trek

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I would dispute that there is actually a place of employment. If the job is a fully remote working job then it is just that. Therefore the idea of using travel facilities to get to and from work cannot possibly happen.
Travelling to a workplace is still business duty travel. I would argue if this is indeed a fully remote job, contracted at home, OP's company should have been paying for the journey in the first place in order for them to go and collect the laptop.

Indeed my TOC employer regularly has to buy my tickets for travel to other locations because from my home it is impractical to use my own company/its reciprocal travel arrangements to reach some of our other locations. Ridiculous in its own way, and imo a waste of taxpayer money, but the correct procedure, even if my ticket is often ignored on board due to being known or my pass being seen.

Had OP been merely heading to the coffee shop to work and this wasn't required by the job duties (so not, for example, going to a coffee shop to meet a client as that would very much be business duty travel) this may be different. But they clearly stated they were going to their workplace, to collect a laptop, and revealed this to the RPI (an unfortunate case of oversharing, dare I say - as whilst not allowed either way, had they not mentioned that, nothing may have come of this). We could try to get hung up on technicality point 7 of the conditons of issue - in that the journey's "main reason" might have been to go to the coffee shop. But I think collecting a laptop is a very important part of a job and it would be hard to argue that wasn't the "main reason" to make the journey as they would have had to have done that at some point to do the job.

Leisure travel is defined as journeys made for fun or activities where there is no income accrued. If the main reason for travelling on a day is to travel to/from work, then the travel cannot be considered as leisure travel. For clarity, if the main purpose of your travel is to go from home to work and back again, but before or after work you spend time socialising or shopping, the travel between your work location and home location is not considered as leisure travel.
 

AlterEgo

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I believe in the rules for safeguarded staff if the dependant commits the travel irregularity then the facilities are removed from that dependant .. if however the travel irregularity is commited by the employee or the former employee in the case of retired staff then the facilities are removed from themselves and the dependants.

Of course the rules for non safeguarded might just be different in that it only needs 1 travel irregulatity by any card holder to result in the facilities being withdrawn from the employee and all the dependants. Of course non safeguarded, unlike safeguardes, do not take the facilities into retirement.
The rules have already been posted in the thread, properly sourced, and discussed. The staff member does not suffer consequences if a spouse commits the offence the OP did.
 

Starmill

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If all else fails, on an almost flat-earther technicality, could it be argued that the passenger had not actually reached their place of employment yet, thus at the time of the ticket irregularity was technically still unemployed, and therefore could not have been traveling for business purposes?
No, because only a journey exclusively for leisure purposes is permitted, and that still isn't one.
 

OllieWave

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Just an update to this situation, it has been ruled that my spouses pass is to be returned, however I am now restricted for life from spouse travel facilities for my single journey. We presented evidence that during my time as a BTP special I led revenue protection operations in liaison with our RPIs, and that I investigated assaults on revenue and staff and that I'd been tapping my pass for the last near decade to go to and from work, but these were not heard and we were informed there is no appeals process.

This is more for my own mental faculties, but remember, you are just a number, and the minute you're out, the company won't hesitate to treat you like crap, no longer how long you've been there.
 

Starmill

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Thank goodness your spouse got their passes back. It was wrong that they were ever in that situation.
 

AlterEgo

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Fortunate you are an ex constable to be quite honest rather than a current one, you ought to have known much better. However it is entirely proper your spouse got their pass back. This was blatantly against RDG's own rules and well done for fighting that.
 

Haywain

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This is more for my own mental faculties, but remember, you are just a number, and the minute you're out, the company won't hesitate to treat you like crap, no longer how long you've been there.
If you have been involved in revenue protection operations then it should be no surprise how seriously the train operators take misuse of travel facilities.
 

OllieWave

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If you have been involved in revenue protection operations then it should be no surprise how seriously the train operators take misuse of travel facilities.
You may say that, but this was my first day at work, and I was let through the gates by the Gateline staff. I sincerely forgot that the pass in my pocket wasn't the one I'd had for the last 7 years. It is what it is.
 

ChilliSauce

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You may say that, but this was my first day at work, and I was let through the gates by the Gateline staff. I sincerely forgot that the pass in my pocket wasn't the one I'd had for the last 7 years. It is what it is.
I believe the right conclusion has been reached ... Reduced Price and Free Rail Travel is a great facility and a privilege including the FIP ... But I think there is an interesting and unanswered question here. Facilities lost for life as a dependant ....but what if the OP now rejoined the rail industry as an employee (obviously without safeguarded facilities) could they have the non safeguarded facilities back in their own right ?
 

CyrusWuff

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I believe the right conclusion has been reached ... Reduced Price and Free Rail Travel is a great facility and a privilege including the FIP ... But I think there is an interesting and unanswered question here. Facilities lost for life as a dependant ....but what if the OP now rejoined the rail industry as an employee (obviously without safeguarded facilities) could they have the non safeguarded facilities back in their own right ?
You can only have one set of national facilities, so I suspect the OP would only get a pass for their own company (or owning group) if they rejoined the industry. I suspect a request to make the OP the primary cardholder in such circumstances would also be refused.
 

furlong

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A cautionary tale for anyone leaving the industry that the railway means what it says. Sounds to me as though the right outcome prevailed.

The employee should not be held responsible for the actions of their spouse without specific evidence of their own wrongdoing so should be left unaffected. But even from the incomplete account presented in this thread it was easy to ascribe to the OP acts amounting to dishonesty at multiple points in time - not a mere one-off memory lapse - and clearly RST was not persuaded by thin excuses.

The consequences could have been far worse for the OP: Had they allowed themselves to be "waved through" ticketless on more than one occasion, they might well have been facing not merely loss of travel facilities but also a criminal record (quite possibly fraud).
 
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AlfDickens

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As an adjunct, this is from the recently updated RDG Staff Travel website:

Residential Travel (i.e. commuting)​

This is classified as travelling from your permanent place of residence to your permanent place of regular employment (i.e. your office, depot or station) i.e. commuting.

An employee can have only one place of regular employment.

Duty Travel​

Duty Travel is travelling as required by your employment or employer during the working day. This includes attending training events and meetings. For clarity only employees are eligible for duty travel.

The use of Status Passes, Staff Travel Card Boxes and Priv tickets for Duty Travel is not permitted for either employees, partners or child dependents.
 
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WesternLancer

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Just an update to this situation, it has been ruled that my spouses pass is to be returned, however I am now restricted for life from spouse travel facilities for my single journey. We presented evidence that during my time as a BTP special I led revenue protection operations in liaison with our RPIs, and that I investigated assaults on revenue and staff and that I'd been tapping my pass for the last near decade to go to and from work, but these were not heard and we were informed there is no appeals process.

This is more for my own mental faculties, but remember, you are just a number, and the minute you're out, the company won't hesitate to treat you like crap, no longer how long you've been there.
Whilst I do note what others have said, I just wanted to say I was sorry to read this in terms of how the outcome has been for you personally.

I'd like to have thought there would be some sort of intermediate sanction that would be a very strong disincentive, but not all or nothing - eg suspension from the scheme for a period of time, repayment of fares etc.

I realise it 'is what it is' but these are my personal thoughts on the matter.

You have my sympathy.
 

enyoueffsea

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The consequences could have been far worse for the OP: Had they allowed themselves to be "waved through" ticketless on more than one occasion, they might well have been facing not merely loss of travel facilities but also a criminal record (quite possibly fraud).

Also fortunate they were no longer a BTP Special Constable otherwise they’d have been dismissed from that role.
 

CyrusWuff

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I'd like to have thought there would be some sort of intermediate sanction that would be a very strong disincentive, but not all or nothing - eg suspension from the scheme for a period of time, repayment of fares etc.
There are three possible sanctions under the RST Travel Irregularities rules:
  • A warning
  • Withdrawal of travel facilities for a minimum of 12 months
  • Permanent withdrawal of travel facilities
Unfortunately for the OP, Rail Staff Travel treat using a pass that's only valid for Leisure travel for Business or Commuting just as seriously as attempting to use a forgery of a card, pass or ticket.
 

AlterEgo

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There are three possible sanctions under the RST Travel Irregularities rules:
  • A warning
  • Withdrawal of travel facilities for a minimum of 12 months
  • Permanent withdrawal of travel facilities
Unfortunately for the OP, Rail Staff Travel treat using a pass that's only valid for Leisure travel for Business or Commuting just as seriously as attempting to use a forgery of a card, pass or ticket.
Obviously in this case the aggravating factor is the presentation of what appears to be a duty pass which should not have been retained after employment first, then after that was refused, the spouse pass which was also not valid. "I used to be a police officer" being used as mitigation is quite instructive about how some police officers view their office, which confers only additional social responsibilities and no additional social privileges.
 

OllieWave

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Obviously in this case the aggravating factor is the presentation of what appears to be a duty pass which should not have been retained after employment first, then after that was refused, the spouse pass which was also not valid. "I used to be a police officer" being used as mitigation is quite instructive about how some police officers view their office, which confers only additional social responsibilities and no additional social privileges.
While I appreciate your sarcastic tone, I did not produce a duty pass, I produced a spouse pass. I did not seek special protections for being a special constable formerly, however I did believe that having led revenue ops that recovered thousands for the company and driven the train for 7 years that a single mistake of me walking through a gate after a gateline staff let me through the gate may have earned me some leeway.
 
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