ORR new report on average age of trains by Operator

[Snow1964]

ORR has issued a new report on average age of fleets at 16.7 years
The graph suggests average age profile is flat, maybe marginally going up again.
Data is nearly 7 months old

Youngest fleet is Lumo at 3.8 years
Oldest is Chiltern, averaging 32 years

Fleets higher than average with no new stock on order :
Scotrail 25.3 years
Northern 24.9 years
Cross Country 23.7 years
South Eastern 22.7 years
C2C 20.7 years
Avanti West Coast 17.5 years

Fleets higher than average age, but new trains ordered / being introduced :
Chiltern 32.0 years
South Western 24.2 years
East Midlands 23.8 years
Grand Central 23.2 years

Passenger rolling stock age explained | Office of Rail and Road

What factors influence changes in the average age of rolling stock?

www.orr.gov.uk

 

[norbitonflyer]

ORR has issued a new report on average age of fleets at 16.7 years
The graph suggests average age profile is flat, maybe marginally going up again.
Data is nearly 7 months old

Youngest fleet is Lumo at 3.8 years
Oldest is Chiltern, averaging 32 years

Fleets higher than average with no new stock on order :
Scotrail 25.3 years
Northern 24.9 years
Cross Country 23.7 years
South Eastern 22.7 years
C2C 20.7 years
Avanti West Coast 17.5 years

Fleets higher than average age, but new trains ordered / being introduced :
Chiltern 32.0 years
South Western 24.2 years
East Midlands 23.8 years
Grand Central 23.2 years

Passenger rolling stock age explained | Office of Rail and Road

What factors influence changes in the average age of rolling stock?

www.orr.gov.uk

It has indeed gone up - it was 16.6 last year.

ranked in order of movement over last year - noting that if there were no trains enetering service or withdrawn the average age would have increased by 1.0 years:

Merseyrail ............... -9.8 (almost complete replacement of 1980s 50x stock with new class 777s)
Transport for Wales... -5.3 (continued replacement of 15x and 175 DMUs by new class 197, 231, 756)
Avanti West Coast..... - 2.0 (new class 805, 807, replacing 221s)
West Midlands Trains . -1.8 (new class 730s replacing older stock)
South Western.......... -0.2 (Class 701s slowly replacing 455s, also a small reduction in the number of class 458s, which are just older than the SWR average)
South Eastern........... +0.3 (Class 707s reducing the average age)
Great Western............+0.4 (Withdrawal of HSTs)
Greater Anglia............+0.9 ((completion of deleiveries of classes 720, 745, 755)
EMidR, XC, GrandC, C2C, TransPenn, ThameslinkSouthern, Overground, LNER, Eliz, HeX,Caledonian, Hull, Lumo +1.0 (no change in stock)
Chiltern.....................+1.1
Norhern....................+1.3

Can anyone shed any light on why Chiltern's and Northern's average ages have actually increased by more than one year over the past year? This would imply they have either acquired something older than their average fleet age (1993 and 2000 respectively), or lost something newer than that average.

 

[The exile]

Can anyone shed any light on why Chiltern's and Northern's average ages have actually increased by more than one year over the past year? This would imply they have either acquired something older than their average fleet age (1993 and 2000 respectively), or lost something newer than that average.

Would the extra 769s leased by Northern to cover works attention to the others be enough to up the average by 0.1?

 

[XCTurbostar]

The number of NT 323s and 769s has increased well. Chiltern's will likely go down significantly once the 196s and Mk5s enter service.

 

[pdeaves]

Does average age matter? To whom? I would suggest that 'suitability' would be better, though I accept that is harder to assign a convenient number for statistical analysis.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does average age matter? To whom? I would suggest that 'suitability' would be better, though I accept that is harder to assign a convenient number for statistical analysis.

It seems to me every time these stats are published, as long as the overall average is around about the 16-18 mark, then that’s about right, because we all know that typical rolling stock has an expected life of 35/40 years. Usually explained that DMUs don’t last as long as EMUs. Yes an individual fleet might be significantly higher than average, but as things come and go round suddenly that area has the newest fleet.

The ideal is a steady replacement plan avoiding peaks and troughs at the builders.

 

[adc82140]

Usually explained that DMUs don’t last as long as EMUs.

Once the 455s and Castle HSTs have departed, would I be right in thinking that in England & Wales the oldest stock will be DMUs in the form of class 150s?

 

[Snow1964]

Does average age matter? To whom? I would suggest that 'suitability' would be better, though I accept that is harder to assign a convenient number for statistical analysis.

ORR to some extent questions that too, but further down on the link they note

80% fairly satisfied or very satisfied with the train they travelled on
78% fairly satisfied or very satisfied with comfort of their seats

So is having every fifth passenger not satisfied good enough ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==

Once the 455s and Castle HSTs have departed, would I be right in thinking that in England & Wales the oldest stock will be DMUs in the form of class 150s?

also the Chiltern mk3s some of which are over 45 years old

strictly the 230s and 484 ex District line trains are older

Scotrail will still have HSTs and 318s (are they older than 150s)

 

[fgwrich]

Does average age matter? To whom? I would suggest that 'suitability' would be better, though I accept that is harder to assign a convenient number for statistical analysis.

I do agree to an extent, the Desiro fleet on SWR might be 20 years old but are still excellent units. And given that the 484s have just been heavily refurbished they are suitable for the routes they work upon.

 

[pdeaves]

80% fairly satisfied or very satisfied with the train they travelled on
78% fairly satisfied or very satisfied with comfort of their seats

So is having every fifth passenger not satisfied good enough ?

Not at all, but comfort is not the same as age. Again I would question the necessity of this particular statistic. That every fifth passenger could be satisfied with a different seat (or whatever), not necessarily with a newer train. After all, there has been much discussion over the years about IET seats and comfort levels. That was in a new train.

Train age is a distraction from the real things that need looking at.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Train age is a distraction from the real things that need looking at.

It is an indicator that there might be a shortage or glut of work for the train builders coming up - and if a glut, the need to finance that work.

This can be seen on the Londion Underground, where all but two of the seven fleets (Victoria Line and Subsurface being the exceptions) are over 25 years old

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==

Once the 455s and Castle HSTs have departed, would I be right in thinking that in England & Wales the oldest stock will be DMUs in the form of class 150s?

No. The Mark 3 sleepers on the Night Riviera are a few years older, (as are Chiltern's Mark 3s, but they are due to be replaced by Mark 5s)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==

Scotrail will still have HSTs and 318s (are they older than 150s)

The HSTs are. The 318s, like the 150/1s, date from 1985/6, but if the Lot numbers are a reliable indicator the 318s are older than all but the prototype 150

Class 150/0 30984-30986
Class 318 30998-31000
Class 150/1 31011-31012
Class 150/2 31017-31018

 

[rattyben]

ORR has issued a new report on average age of fleets at 16.7 years
The graph suggests average age profile is flat, maybe marginally going up again.
Data is nearly 7 months old

Youngest fleet is Lumo at 3.8 years
Oldest is Chiltern, averaging 32 years

Fleets higher than average with no new stock on order :
Scotrail 25.3 years
Northern 24.9 years
Cross Country 23.7 years
South Eastern 22.7 years
C2C 20.7 years
Avanti West Coast 17.5 years

Fleets higher than average age, but new trains ordered / being introduced :
Chiltern 32.0 years
South Western 24.2 years
East Midlands 23.8 years
Grand Central 23.2 years

Passenger rolling stock age explained | Office of Rail and Road

What factors influence changes in the average age of rolling stock?

www.orr.gov.uk

I think these are misleading when looking at operators like Northern that cover large areas when parts of their network are averaging 40 years easily.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think these are misleading when looking at operators like Northern that cover large areas when parts of their network are averaging 40 years easily.

The oldest units on Northern (the 150/1s) are 40 years old. Certainly not the average in any area

 

[AM9]

Does average age matter? To whom? I would suggest that 'suitability' would be better, though I accept that is harder to assign a convenient number for statistical analysis.

Also a 'suitability' grading would be highly subjective, - certainly judging by some comments here on RUK.

 

[The exile]

80% fairly satisfied or very satisfied with the train they travelled on
78% fairly satisfied or very satisfied with comfort of their seats

So is having every fifth passenger not satisfied good enough ?

In terms of the satisfaction with seats - you can’t be satisfied with your seat if you’re standing. That will account for quite a few % points and isn’t a major problem on short urban journeys.

 

[JamesT]

Once the 455s and Castle HSTs have departed, would I be right in thinking that in England & Wales the oldest stock will be DMUs in the form of class 150s?

The Class 484s on the Isle of Wight?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The Class 484s on the Isle of Wight?

No, it’s the mk3a loco hauled carriages used on GWR.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2025 ==

Once the 455s and Castle HSTs have departed, would I be right in thinking that in England & Wales the oldest stock will be DMUs in the form of class 150s?

No, there remains the loco-hauled GWR mk3a stock.

 

[ChrisC]

I think these are misleading when looking at operators like Northern that cover large areas when parts of their network are averaging 40 years easily.

I think it’s also misleading for a TOC like EMR which operate both intercity and regional routes. The average age of EMR stock will decrease significantly during the next year as the 810’s are introduced on their London route. However, even the 222’s which are being withdrawn from that route, are not as old as any of their regional stock. With the 170s being refurbished, and even the 158s getting some refurbishment, EMR will probably not be getting anything any newer for their regional services within the next 10 years.

 

[rattyben]

The oldest units on Northern (the 150/1s) are 40 years old. Certainly not the average in any area

The oldest 156s are almost certainly approaching 40 with 158 not far behind. They’ll definitely exceed that age by the time they are replaced, areas like NE only operate these units therefore some areas will be far higher than the stated report.

So I think this reporting should be done on a regional basis not by TOC which is completely arbitrary now.

If the objective of this report is to highlight rolling stock needs to support better transport and economic growth etc… then doing it by TOC makes no sense whatsoever.

The only way reporting it at a TOC level would make sense is if there was a equal distribution of different age rolling stock across a TOCs network which for lots of reasons is never going to be true.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2025 ==

I think it’s also misleading for a TOC like EMR which operate both intercity and regional routes. The average age of EMR stock will decrease significantly during the next year as the 810’s are introduced on their London route. However, even the 222’s which are being withdrawn from that route, not as old as any of their regional stock. With the 170s being refurbished, and even the 158s getting some refurbishment, EMR will probably not be getting anything any newer for their regional services within the next 10 years.

The oldest 156s are almost certainly approaching 40 with 158 not far behind. They’ll definitely exceed that age by the time they are replaced, areas like NE only operate these units therefore some areas will be far higher than the stated report.

So I think this reporting should be done on a regional basis not by TOC which is completely arbitrary now.

If the objective of this report is to highlight rolling stock needs to support better transport and economic growth etc… then doing it by TOC makes no sense whatsoever.

The only way reporting it at a TOC level would make sense is if there was an equal distribution of different age rolling stock across a TOCs network which for lots of reasons is never going to be true.

Exactly

I think it’s also misleading for a TOC like EMR which operate both intercity and regional routes. The average age of EMR stock will decrease significantly during the next year as the 810’s are introduced on their London route. However, even the 222’s which are being withdrawn from that route, not as old as any of their regional stock. With the 170s being refurbished, and even the 158s getting some refurbishment, EMR will probably not be getting anything any newer for their regional services within the next 10 years.

Exactly and I dare say that’s true of GWR as well, this should really be measured (excluding intercity routes) at regional/economic levels otherwise it’s a report that really isn’t useful to anyone if its purpose is to improve economic outcomes and better public transport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2025 ==

Does average age matter? To whom? I would suggest that 'suitability' would be better, though I accept that is harder to assign a convenient number for statistical analysis.

I’d suspect it’s more a tool (albeit a not very useful one) for the Transport Secretary to wave around as a political performance metric.

The only thing I’d add is public perception, areas which are served by very ageing rolling stock (Sprinters) will likely view their network as tired, ageing and off putting for the cost. Class 150 through to 156 look very tired no matter how many new seat covers or coats of paint are applied.

You’re not wrong though about suitability, likely being measured but I doubt it would ever be published.

 

[The exile]

The only thing I’d add is public perception, areas which are served by very ageing rolling stock (Sprinters) will likely view their network as tired, ageing and off putting for the cost. Class 150 through to 156 look very tired no matter how many new seat covers or coats of paint are applied.

Though it’s not merely a factor of age - the oldest 158 is only a year or so newer than the 156s, yet a well-trimmed 158 doesn’t show its age in the same way.

 

[bramling]

Though it’s not merely a factor of age - the oldest 158 is only a year or so newer than the 156s, yet a well-trimmed 158 doesn’t show its age in the same way.

Would be interesting to see some stats for satisfaction levels on those routes who have seen nothing but Sprinters for a very long time.

I’m thinking of routes like West Highland, Stranraer, Glasgow & South Western, Buxton, Cumbrian Coast. Of those, the first three AIUI have been 100% 156 pretty much since they were first introduced.

 

[rattyben]

Though it’s not merely a factor of age - the oldest 158 is only a year or so newer than the 156s, yet a well-trimmed 158 doesn’t show its age in the same way.

Agreed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2025 ==

Would be interesting to see some stats for satisfaction levels on those routes who have seen nothing but Sprinters for a very long time.

I’m thinking of routes like West Highland, Stranraer, Glasgow & South Western, Buxton, Cumbrian Coast. Of those, the first three AIUI have been 100% 156 pretty much since they were first introduced.

The biggest issue for me is it’s constantly 2 carriages with Northern and people get left behind on the platform.

 

[The exile]

Agreed.

Having had to suffer the first few years of 155s, I’ve always had a soft spot for 156s. However, they can hardly be described as the beau ideal of modern train travel!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2025 ==

The biggest issue for me is it’s constantly 2 carriages with Northern and people get left behind on the platform.

Though that of course is entirely independent of the type of train (other than the fact that if only 2 cars of a 4-car unit turn up you’ve got really big problems!)