Avanti shenanigans at Preston again today

[D1511]

According to what I can see, 9S44 0633 Euston - Edinburgh arrived at Preston at 1006 (16 late) and was cancelled, due to late running train crew (YJ)(who were obviously still stuck somewhere between Carlisle & Preston due to the earlier problems) 9M50 was 91 late into Preston.

Then, presumably with the decanted Edinburgh passengers looking on in bafflement on the platform, the stock ran ECS to Edinburgh as 5S44, leaving 'only' 45 late at 10.39.

What would be the operational justification for doing this? Presumably the crew had arrived southbound and accompanied the train back north, so why chuck off the passengers?

 

[Lewisham2221]

According to what I can see, 9S44 0633 Euston - Edinburgh arrived at Preston at 1006 (16 late) and was cancelled, due to late running train crew (YJ)(who were obviously still stuck somewhere between Carlisle & Preston due to the earlier problems) (Highland sleeper was 320 late into inverness!)
Then, presumably with the decanted Edinburgh passengers looking on in bafflement on the platform, the stock then ran ECS to Edinburgh as 5S44, leaving 'only' 45 late.

What would be the operational justification for doing this? Presumably the crew arrived southbound and accompanied the train back north, so why chuck off the passengers?

Spare/available driver but no TM, perhaps? Presumably the majority of people stood on the platform who saw the train depart would've had no idea that the train was actually running empty all the way Edinburgh though.

 

[D1511]

Spare/available driver but no TM, perhaps? Presumably the majority of people stood on the platform who saw the train depart would've had no idea that the train was actually running empty all the way Edinburgh though.

That's probably true right enough, but if anyone on the platform had known......

I suppose they might have found a driver from somewhere, but as 9M50 arrived at 10.46 presumably with the northbound crew on board, why not just wait another 7 minutes??

 

[Lewisham2221]

That's probably true right enough, but if anyone on the platform had known......

I suppose they might have found a driver from somewhere, but as 9M50 arrived at 10.46 presumably with the northbound crew on board, why not just wait another 7 minutes??

Can't say for certain, but possible that the crew needed a break - which could've easily added 30+ minutes on to things.

Or could be that resources swapped things around and got the crew to work a different that would've also been affected by the same disruption - 1M08 was also 88 minutes late and 9M51 was cancelled entirely - so the crew on either of those services were due to work another service back North, that train would've likely been cancelled instead.

 

[185143]

Must admit I've nothing but praise for the railway yesterday.

Travelled Warrington-Aberdeen with a 50mph restriction for most of the journey between Oxenholme and Haymarket. The TM kept us as best updated as he really could, we ended up reaching HYM 72 late. Which given we ran through flood water, plenty of grim weather and plenty of lineside flooding around Carlisle seemed like a decent outcome really.

Missed the Azuma to Aberdeen unsurprisingly but it was a quick and easy connection HST which had a much better calling pattern than the Azuma. Was only about 50 late into Aberdeen.

Suppose it's luck of the draw. It gets messy when crews get displaced.

 

[voyagerdude220]

As others have suspected above, the problem was that the scheduled Train Manager was heavily delayed arriving at Preston and would have needed their break before they were able to work their next train.

 

[Kev77]

As others have suspected above, the problem was that the scheduled Train Manager was heavily delayed arriving at Preston and would have needed their break before they were able to work their next train.

TM dont get a break like the drivers PNB. We take our next train as soon as we arrive on many occasions when delayed. Hop of one on to another and as it would be the TMs back workings I can assure you they would have worked it immediately on their arrival. This would have been a control/resources decision.

 

[Horizon22]

TM dont get a break like the drivers PNB.

I mean that’s categorically untrue? If you are a TM, I’m not sure how you can even say that.

It might not be exactly the same as driver T&Cs, but as safety-critical staff are still due PNBs of a certain length at certain times in a diagram.

 

[87015]

I mean that’s categorically untrue? If you are a TM, I’m not sure how you can even say that.

It might not be exactly the same as driver T&Cs, but as safety-critical staff are still due PNBs of a certain length at certain times in a diagram.

No, they don’t get PNBs or mandatory breaks between trains since Virgin days.

 

[LCC106]

I think our TMs get their PNB effectively on the train. Although they might get some down time at the final destination it isn’t officially a PNB.

 

[voyagerdude220]

TM dont get a break like the drivers PNB. We take our next train as soon as we arrive on many occasions when delayed. Hop of one on to another and as it would be the TMs back workings I can assure you they would have worked it immediately on their arrival. This would have been a control/resources decision.

That's crazy. But on Tyrell the cancellation reason at the time specifically stated TM heavily delayed on their Preston bound train.

 

[Horizon22]

No, they don’t get PNBs or mandatory breaks between trains since Virgin days.

There will be some form of mandatory break, it’s a legal requirement

 

[KNN]

There will be some form of mandatory break, it’s a legal requirement

It's a bit of a hot topic from what I've heard, at Virgin they traded it for money, now they want it back.

 

[38Cto15E]

I wouldn't be surprised if TM's started their ticket examination at the North end of the Pendolino working forward to the South end where the kitchen is handily placed. I'm sure they find time for a biscuit and brew in the kitchen.

 

[Falcon1200]

As others have suspected above, the problem was that the scheduled Train Manager was heavily delayed arriving at Preston and would have needed their break before they were able to work their next train.

When Avanti trains have a Crew change at Preston, do the Drivers and Train Managers have identical diagrams, so that if an inward train is late their next working will also be delayed? If they do have separate diagrams, ie with or without a PNB scheduled, managing the service during disruption becomes even more complex!

 

[Toby268]

When Avanti trains have a Crew change at Preston, do the Drivers and Train Managers have identical diagrams, so that if an inward train is late their next working will also be delayed? If they do have separate diagrams, ie with or without a PNB scheduled, managing the service during disruption becomes even more complex!

No they do not have identical diagrams. The diagrams nowadays are so tight, more so on the southern end of the route but also, the Scottish drivers have some turn arounds at Preston where a delay of only 8/9 minutes will affect the return working due to the need for a PNB. It’s why the service recovery is so frequently poor. Time and time again management have been told, but at the end of the day it comes down to cost and productivity, is the line used.

Going back to the original issue, I imagine what has happened here is the signallers have complained to Avanti that the set was taking up a platform and needs to be moved asap as would be causing congestion. Always a problem at Preston during these incidents due to platform capacity. And they have made a decision to get the set on the move, probably a panicked decision, without checking that the TM was only a few minutes away. As above, Avanti TMs do not have PNBs in diagrams so it really wouldn’t have been long. These types of rushed decisions are made frequently during major disruption and unfortunately the passengers bear the brunt. I also imagine the crew wouldn’t have been very happy either, given they would now be home late.

 

[dodecahedron67]

I believe LNER TMs are the same, where their breaks can be taken "on the train" rather than in a messroom

 

[Oxfordblues]

Always a problem at Preston during these incidents due to platform capacity.

I wonder what happened to the proposal to reinstate the disused Parcels Platforms (formerly 1 and 2) which would provide much-needed capacity, especially at the all-too-frequent times of disruption. The current layout leaves very little opportunity to detain a train awaiting traincrew.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I wonder what happened to the proposal to reinstate the disused Parcels Platforms (formerly 1 and 2) which would provide much-needed capacity, especially at the all-too-frequent times of disruption. The current layout leaves very little opportunity to detain a train awaiting traincrew.

Kicked into the long grass for the “Trilink” project, as was greater accessibility for “Platform 7”

 

[GordonT]

No they do not have identical diagrams. The diagrams nowadays are so tight, more so on the southern end of the route but also, the Scottish drivers have some turn arounds at Preston where a delay of only 8/9 minutes will affect the return working due to the need for a PNB.

What is the minimum acceptable time for a Scottish driver's PNB at Preston before returning North?

 

[Falcon1200]

No they do not have identical diagrams. The diagrams nowadays are so tight, more so on the southern end of the route but also, the Scottish drivers have some turn arounds at Preston where a delay of only 8/9 minutes will affect the return working due to the need for a PNB.

Thanks. Differing Driver and Train Manager/Guard diagrams are a major issue for service recovery (and Control) as disruption rapidly spreads. Not to mention examples I once had where Driver, Guard and set had 3 different next workings, albeit with suburban rather than main line express trains.

 

[LowLevel]

I mean that’s categorically untrue? If you are a TM, I’m not sure how you can even say that.

It might not be exactly the same as driver T&Cs, but as safety-critical staff are still due PNBs of a certain length at certain times in a diagram.

It's not unusual with Intercity TOCs. MML/EMT/EMR train managers didn't used to have booked off train PNBs, they had an agreement that they could use the on board kitchens and sit in the first class carriages for a break.

It only changed with the introduction of class 360 work comparatively recently.

 

[D1511]

Many thanks for the responses everyone, and I know a lot more about train crew rosters and breaks (or lack thereof) now.

However, what I've read in the thread does rather circle me back to the decision that was made by Avanti control was stupid and the wrong call, and it's cost them tens of thousands of pounds in delay repay.

Does anyone scrutinise these decisions after the event? I noticed the word 'panicked' to describe their reaction up thread, so surely some review of decision making, as part of learning, must take place?

 

[Cowley]

Before this shoots off on a tangent, I’ve started a separate thread below as I think it’s probably an interesting discussion on its own.

Do NR arrange big practice exercises involving multiple TOCs that simulate a major incident in real time?

Many thanks for the responses everyone, and I know a lot more about train crew rosters and breaks now. However, what I've read in the thread does rather circle me back to the decision that was made by Avanti control was stupid and the wrong call, and it's cost them tens of thousands of pounds in...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks everyone.

 

[Kev77]

Sorry for causing a separate debate. Yet again on this forum I am being told that I am wrong when stating absolute facts. I am an Avanti TM yet continually some enthusiast appears to know my job better than I do. I little bit of knowledge is dangerous as some of the discussions and theories on here are amazing. I try to inform and answer questions but get a little frustrated by members who think they are the Oracle. No wonder that this forum has a bad name between railway staff!!!

 

[D1511]

Sorry for causing a separate debate. Yet again on this forum I am being told that I am wrong when stating absolute facts. I am an Avanti TM yet continually some enthusiast appears to know my job better than I do. I little bit of knowledge is dangerous as some of the discussions and theories on here are amazing. I try to inform and answer questions but get a little frustrated by members who think they are the Oracle. No wonder that this forum has a bad name between railway staff!!!

Noted, and as a non expert, I tend to pay more attention to posts like yours that use 'we', 'our TOC' etc because I know you're speaking from your experience, not from theoretical enthusiast knowledge, which I admit there's a fair amount of on here.
As the OP, I asked a genuine question about an Avanti operational decision I found puzzling, and there have been some very informative replies, of which yours was one.
As a regular Avanti traveller (I'll be on 2 AWC services tomorrow....maybe you'll be my TM!) I was just curious about the decision and why it was made. And if by waiting 7 minutes for the TM to hop off and then on, using your own words, it seems even harder to understand.

 

[ShadowKnight]

It seems again the railway operating for the sake of the system, rigidity and efficiency above all rather than the passenger and a reputable service

 

[Carlisle]

Kicked into the long grass for the “Trilink” project, as was greater accessibility for “Platform 7”

Presumably ‘greater accessibility’ for platform 7 means returning to a usable condition for passenger trains rather than just night cleaning as seems to have been the case for decades.

 

[LowLevel]

Sorry for causing a separate debate. Yet again on this forum I am being told that I am wrong when stating absolute facts. I am an Avanti TM yet continually some enthusiast appears to know my job better than I do. I little bit of knowledge is dangerous as some of the discussions and theories on here are amazing. I try to inform and answer questions but get a little frustrated by members who think they are the Oracle. No wonder that this forum has a bad name between railway staff!!!

Perhaps @Horizon22 will drop you an apology for responding so robustly when they were ill informed on the matter and we can move on, it happens.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Presumably ‘greater accessibility’ for platform 7 means returning to a usable condition for passenger trains rather than just night cleaning as seems to have been the case for decades.

Indeed. Technically it's considered a goods line in signalling terms so passenger trains typically can't use it