Penalty Fare-Purchased after departure

[Sawa71]

Hey guys, I got fined 100pounds plus a full single fare applicable of 4pounds today and I'm appealing, any advice would be really appreciated.

My journey was from Wolverton at 18:30 to Milton Keynes Central at 18:34 by West Midlands. I had to take the 18:30 train—the only option that would allow me to make my onward connection to the 19:00 X5 bus to Oxford. I wasn't sure if I could make it to train station on time so I was thinking of getting a ticket there at station either with ticket machine or online with my phone. It's an anytime day single ticket so I thought I could get any ticket no matter which one train I'm hopping onto. Wolverton has no ticket barriers (or they not working, they're always opening) and no staff available at that time (they off-work in the morning at 11am), I was in a rush, the train was already close to departure. The ticket vending machine wasn't working at all(it's totally off). So I try to purchase the ticket through my phone on the app Trip with my railcard. Due to low service and the app was slow the purchase had not gone through. I tried again on board, but there was no mobile signal during the journey. I tried to connect to WiFi but it didn’t work after I connected. There was no working staff I can find selling tickets on board as well. The purchase only restarted after about 1 and quarter minutes into a 3 minutes trip but the one for 18:30 is already unavailable to buy.

As soon as I arrived at Milton Keynes Central and regained signal at 18:35, I immediately purchased the correct Anytime Day Single ticket with my railcard at 18:36. I showed the inspector this valid ticket and my valid railcard right away when I got to the barrier.

Despite this, she still issued a penalty as she detected that my ticket was purchased after departure.

I was also troubled by aspects of the interaction. The inspector asked me questions that felt unnecessary and intrusive, such as why I was in Wolverton and where my friend lived. Before I tried to explain what happened she said something like ' You only purchased this after you seeing us here ', ' Where does your friend live? You might've bought the ticket because Wolverton is the very last station to Milton Keynes ' I understand that's their job but the tone was disrespectful and it made me uncomfortable. As an Asian traveler just visiting friend and sightseeing in the UK with language barrier, the nature of the questioning made me feel that there may have been an element of bias involved. She didn't even tell me she's gonna give me a penalty fare before I asked her why'd she try to ask for my name. I was trying to explain what happened in a more detailed and logical way but my bus was about to come so I gave up.

Additionally, the inspector silently underlined the appeal website on my penalty notice without me even asking so I'm guessing it worth appealing? This entire process has taken significant time and caused considerable stress, despite the fact that she has already checked that I had a valid Anytime Day Single and a valid railcard. I don't think it's appropriate to charge me 100pounds out of a 2.65pounds-4 minutes journey(yet they asked me to pay 4pounds for the ticket again) and make me bear the consequences of that system failure. Also there's no way I can buy a ticket in 1 minute if I only purchased after I saw her at barrier as she said, as it got a decent distance from my platform to the barrier and the service is low around there.

 

[John R]

I’ll let others comment on the chances of having an appeal accepted, but I doubt if there is any element of bias involved - the interaction sounds no different to what you might expect if you are identified as having purchased a ticket after boarding a train, which is only allowed in certain specific circumstances.

The only other comment I would make is that I am surprised that there was no mobile signal - the 3 minute journey from Wolverton to MK is a well populated area, which I would expect to have coverage.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Hey guys, I got fined 100pounds plus a full single fare applicable of 4pounds today and I'm appealing, any advice would be really appreciated.

My journey was from Wolverton at 18:30 to Milton Keynes Central at 18:34 by West Midlands. I had to take the 18:30 train—the only option that would allow me to make my onward connection to the 19:00 X5 bus to Oxford. I wasn't sure if I could make it to train station on time so I was thinking of getting a ticket there at station either with ticket machine or online with my phone. It's an anytime day single ticket so I thought I could get any ticket no matter which one train I'm hopping onto. Wolverton has no ticket barriers (or they not working, they're always opening) and no staff available at that time (they off-work in the morning at 11am), I was in a rush, the train was already close to departure. The ticket vending machine wasn't working at all(it's totally off). So I try to purchase the ticket through my phone on the app Trip with my railcard. Due to low service and the app was slow the purchase had not gone through. I tried again on board, but there was no mobile signal during the journey. I tried to connect to WiFi but it didn’t work after I connected. There was no working staff I can find selling tickets on board as well. The purchase only restarted after about 1 and quarter minutes into a 3 minutes trip but the one for 18:30 is already unavailable to buy.

As soon as I arrived at Milton Keynes Central and regained signal at 18:35, I immediately purchased the correct Anytime Day Single ticket with my railcard at 18:36. I showed the inspector this valid ticket and my valid railcard right away when I got to the barrier.

Despite this, she still issued a penalty as she detected that my ticket was purchased after departure.

I was also troubled by aspects of the interaction. The inspector asked me questions that felt unnecessary and intrusive, such as why I was in Wolverton and where my friend lived. Before I tried to explain what happened she said something like ' You only purchased this after you seeing us here ', ' Where does your friend live? You might've bought the ticket because Wolverton is the very last station to Milton Keynes ' I understand that's their job but the tone was disrespectful and it made me uncomfortable. As an Asian traveler just visiting friend and sightseeing in the UK with language barrier, the nature of the questioning made me feel that there may have been an element of bias involved. She didn't even tell me she's gonna give me a penalty fare before I asked her why'd she try to ask for my name. I was trying to explain what happened in a more detailed and logical way but my bus was about to come so I gave up.

Additionally, the inspector silently underlined the appeal website on my penalty notice without me even asking so I'm guessing it worth appealing? This entire process has taken significant time and caused considerable stress, despite the fact that she has already checked that I had a valid Anytime Day Single and a valid railcard. I don't think it's appropriate to charge me 100pounds out of a 2.65pounds-4 minutes journey(yet they asked me to pay 4pounds for the ticket again) and make me bear the consequences of that system failure. Also there's no way I can buy a ticket in 1 minute if I only purchased after I saw her at barrier as she said, as it got a decent distance from my platform to the barrier and the service is low around there.

On face value if the ticket machine was broken and the booking office closed so not even the option of obtaining a promise to pay so no possibility to purchase a ticket by the facilities provided at the station then it's a pity you tried to buy over your phone as you could of just presented at Milton Keynes ticketless and if a Penalty Fare had been issued I believe you would of had valid grounds to of had it cancelled.

 

[Titfield]

The ticket inspector may have held a reasonable belief that you had travelled without a valid ticket and that you only purchased a ticket either to get through the barrier at the arrival station or upon seeing a ticket inspector hence the interaction. The inspector was correct in that you had boarded the train without a valid ticket which is an offence. This is only permitted in certain circumstances including when there was no means to purchase a ticket prior to boarding.

The ticket inspector in seeing the ticket also formed a view that you may have been shortfaring ie you had travelled from somewhere other than Wolverton ie a greater distance from Milton Keynes. The questions asked were reasonable given the circumstances.

Unfortunately the circumstances of your journey - boarding without a ticket, purchased online at or close to arrival, ticket from a station close to the destination station are all hall marks of fare evasion hence the interaction.

Forum regulars know that ticket inspectors often "encourage"* recipients of penalty fares to appeal as it softens the interaction and reduces the risk of confrontations developing. Personally I think this behaviour, whilst understandable, runs the risk of misrepresenting the situation to the passenger and giving them false hope.

*It can be debated what form of words is simply providing the passenger with information (how to appeal) as the question how to appeal is almost certain to be asked by the passenger or whether those words appear as encouragement and giving the passenger false hope.

Parliament decided the levels of penalty fares to be applied having considered what level would best balance the needs of not unduly penalising "genuine mistakes" versus the persistent and regular fare evaders who calculate the financial benefit of their actions.

If your case is as you say it is, and I pass no judgement on that, then this is an unfortunate episode but highlights the perils of cutting things fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

The company will as a matter of course now audit your past purchases whether the Penalty Fare stands or not. They do this with nearly everyone now. So if you didn't really board at Wolverton (a station with ticket facilities and good mobile signal - it was my local for a few years) they'll find out.

Purchasing a ticket after departure doesn't render it invalid (not until the new Conditions of Travel come in specifically "outlawing" it), so the Penalty Fare could be successfully appealed, but you may be faced with separate scrutiny anyway. The company will reasonably believe you purchased when you realised the barrier was in operation at Milton Keynes, because the time would suggest so. Hopefully you didnt tell the staff at Milton Keynes about the barriers being open or broken at Wolverton, because I have news for you about Wolverton station!

 

[Tetchytyke]

For now, buying a ticket after departure is not a matter that can be subject to a Penalty Fare. Buying it after departure doesn’t make the ticket invalid.

Separately, if all the ticket machines at Wolverton were inoperative then this would be a ground for appeal as you had no opportunity to purchase at the station before boarding.

There are upcoming changes to the Conditions of Travel which will make a ticket bought after departure invalid, but they’re not in effect yet.

You can appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued for a matter which is not subject to Penalty Fare (at present), and that there was no opportunity to buy at Wolverton.

However, be aware that buying on board if you could have bought before boarding is a separate criminal offence, so in future make sure you buy before you get on. Given the timings, the company (and the inspector) are likely reasonable in their belief that you only bought the ticket to get out of the barriers.

Also be aware that the train company will likely audit your transaction history and so they will know if you were short-faring.

I would suggest that you do appeal but be aware that WMT will likely trawl your transaction history irrespective of whether you appeal or pay the Penalty Fare.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Where are we with the new NRCoT? The fact they will explicitly make tickets purchased after departure invalid is pretty good evidence that currently they are valid but I don’t think a link to the new wording on a rail forum will cut it. Is there any official source for these changes yet?

 

[AlterEgo]

Where are we with the new NRCoT? The fact they will explicitly make tickets purchased after departure invalid is pretty good evidence that currently they are valid but I don’t think a link to the new wording on a rail forum will cut it. Is there any official source for these changes yet?

Not yet, they are not published other than internally yet. You could FOI a TOC for them though.

 

[John R]

Not yet, they are not published other than internally yet. You could FOI a TOC for them though.

Weren’t they due to come in to effect in a few days?

 

[swt_passenger]

Where are we with the new NRCoT? The fact they will explicitly make tickets purchased after departure invalid is pretty good evidence that currently they are valid but I don’t think a link to the new wording on a rail forum will cut it. Is there any official source for these changes yet?

I always believed the PF regulations already define a ‘valid ticket’ as:

“a)any reference to a “valid travel ticket” is a reference to a travel ticket in a person’s possession which is valid for—

(i)the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make…”. (My bold).

So how can a ticket that didn’t yet exist have been valid at the start of the journey? Has anyone successfully appealed on the basis their ‘just bought’ ticket had retrospective validity?

Helpfully though this will no longer be debatable with the new NRC of T.

 

[AlterEgo]

I always believed the PF regulations already define a ‘valid ticket’ as:

“a)any reference to a “valid travel ticket” is a reference to a travel ticket in a person’s possession which is valid for—

(i)the day and time of the journey that person is making, has made or intends to make…”. (My bold).

So how can a ticket that didn’t yet exist have been valid at the start of the journey? Has anyone successfully appealed on the basis their ‘just bought’ ticket had retrospective validity?

Helpfully though this will no longer be debatable with the new NRC of T.

That is not how to read that section of the Regulations. Essentially, what it is doing there is covering all bases -

- being stopped on the train making the journey
- being stopped after completing the journey
- being stopped prior to the train departing, or in a compulsory ticket area

This has been done to death but the reason the NRCoT are making this new distinction is to explicitly clarify the matter because the current NRCoT and the law do not support the issuance of a PF in these circumstances. The logic you use doesn't make sense - if the OP was sold a ticket for Wolverton to MK at the MK barrier instead of being penalty fared, are you suggesting it *would still not be valid* for the journey? And then what, you could, I suppose, penalty fare them on top of this according to your logic? "Haha yeah lol just sold you that ticket but psych! It isn't valid."

Of course a ticket sold during or after a journey is a valid ticket.

 

[swt_passenger]

That is not how to read that section of the Regulations. Essentially, what it is doing there is covering all bases -

- being stopped on the train making the journey
- being stopped after completing the journey
- being stopped prior to the train departing, or in a compulsory ticket area

This has been done to death but the reason the NRCoT are making this new distinction is to explicitly clarify the matter because the current NRCoT and the law do not support the issuance of a PF in these circumstances. The logic you use doesn't make sense - if the OP was sold a ticket for Wolverton to MK at the MK barrier instead of being penalty fared, are you suggesting it *would still not be valid* for the journey? And then what, you could, I suppose, penalty fare them on top of this according to your logic? "Haha yeah lol just sold you that ticket but psych! It isn't valid."

Of course a ticket sold during or after a journey is a valid ticket.

I still think you have to differentiate between the railway choosing to sell you a ticket to regularise the travel after discovering the passenger has no ticket, eg if the staff on the train or at the barrier are not PF trained, and the passenger deciding to buy it preemptively on their own. Academic really as it’s days away from being explicitly stated. Have we ever had an opinion from revenue staff who have issued PF’s in this scenario?

 

[AlterEgo]

I still think you have to differentiate between the railway choosing to sell you a ticket to regularise the travel after discovering the passenger has no ticket, eg if the staff on the train or at the barrier are not PF trained, and the passenger deciding to buy it preemptively on their own.

No, we don't have to differentiate, because the law and the Conditions don't. (yet)

That is precisely why a new Condition is coming in.

 

[Sawa71]

Thank you everyone for your reply! I just realized there could be a difference if I bought the anytime ticket but boarded at the earlier train, I'll bear that in mind next time . Hope everyone here have a good day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2025 ==

The company will as a matter of course now audit your past purchases whether the Penalty Fare stands or not. They do this with nearly everyone now. So if you didn't really board at Wolverton (a station with ticket facilities and good mobile signal - it was my local for a few years) they'll find out.

Purchasing a ticket after departure doesn't render it invalid (not until the new Conditions of Travel come in specifically "outlawing" it), so the Penalty Fare could be successfully appealed, but you may be faced with separate scrutiny anyway. The company will reasonably believe you purchased when you realised the barrier was in operation at Milton Keynes, because the time would suggest so. Hopefully you didnt tell the staff at Milton Keynes about the barriers being open or broken at Wolverton, because I have news for you about Wolverton station!

I've told her they're opening all the time. It might be different these days as me and my friend took the train between wolverton and Milton Keynes quite often during the last two weeks, it's never on operation to be honest. In this case would it help with the appeal if I upload photos of opened barrier and not-working ticket machine?

 

[AlterEgo]

I've told her they're opening all the time. It might be different these days as me and my friend took the train between wolverton and Milton Keynes quite often during the last two weeks

Do you have evidence of your previous ticket purchases? Are they in your ticket history on your app?

In this case would it help with the appeal if I upload photos of opened barrier and not-working ticket machine?

You have photos of the open ticket barrier at Wolverton? Post them in the thread.

 

[vectra33]

"As an Asian traveler just visiting friend and sightseeing in the UK"

Not many people sightseeing in the UK buy a 12 month railcard?
You seem to have a good knowledge of the barriers being open regularly, given that you are "just sightseeing"

Are you telling us the whole story?

 

[AlterEgo]

You seem to have a good knowledge of the barriers being open regularly

You'd think so, but there is something quite important about Wolverton station and its barriers which I know but the OP doesn't.

 

[Sawa71]

"As an Asian traveler just visiting friend and sightseeing in the UK"

Not many people sightseeing in the UK buy a 12 month railcard?
You seem to have a good knowledge of the barriers being open regularly, given that you are "just sightseeing"

Are you telling us the whole story?

It’s understandable that you’d ask this question, but as I said I made a decent amount of the same journeys during last few weeks, yes I know well it’s opened nearly all the time. I got annual railcard as they were doing discounts last year and I commute from Oxford to London quite often as well. I can’t see the point of your question though, I assume this is where people getting advice based on genuine statements?

 

[Egg Centric]

@Sawa71 what is a "ticket barrier" to you?

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s understandable that you’d ask this question, but as I said I made a decent amount of the same journeys during last few weeks, yes I know well it’s opened nearly all the time. I got annual railcard as they were doing discounts last year and I commute from Oxford to London quite often as well. I can’t see the point of your question though, I assume this is where people getting advice based on genuine statements?

Show us the picture of the open ticket barriers at Wolverton you say you took. Because there are no ticket barriers at Wolverton.

 

[Egg Centric]

Show us the picture of the open ticket barriers at Wolverton you say you took. Because there are no ticket barriers at Wolverton.

There is (or was) a gate though, hence my curiosity...

 

[z444z]

The ongoing discussion is interesting and does suggest there might be part of the story missing, but ignoring that for now:

If your appetite for risk is very low and you have the money to pay the PF, that may be the best option. But if you appeal on the grounds that it was issued for a reason not permitted by the regulations, as long as the TOC doesn’t withdraw the PF before the first appeal is decided/times out (which seems to almost never happen - someone please correct me if I’m wrong!) then prosecution is barred in relation to this incident.

The TOC could then decide to do a deep dive into your purchasing history and send you threatening letters, but without having stopped you previously it’s very unlikely they would have the evidence to prove to a high enough standard that you committed offences in the past.

They could look to recover money through civil proceedings where undeniable proof is not required and instead cases are decided on what is most likely to have happened, but would only be able to recover their actual loss, not the much higher Anytime fares they usually ask for in settlements, and anyway without the threat of a criminal record they have far less leverage anyway.

So you can pay the PF and almost certainly make this all go away, or you can appeal it, keep your money and it’s still quite likely nothing further will happen.

Either way, you’re now on their radar and if you keep doing this they will catch you - you need to buy the correct tickets from now on!

My knowledge on this comes from reading the hundreds of pages of excellent advice given on this forum, I am not an expert myself and am happy to be corrected.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I assume this is where people getting advice based on genuine statements?

It's up to a poster as to whether they tell the truth or not, but if a poster lies then the advice they receive from us will not be suitable.

If you have a photo of the non-functioning ticket machine then it will be evidence to support your appeal.

If your appetite for risk is very low and you have the money to pay the PF, that may be the best option. But if you appeal on the grounds that it was issued for a reason not permitted by the regulations, as long as the TOC doesn’t withdraw the PF before the first appeal is decided/times out (which seems to almost never happen - someone please correct me if I’m wrong!) then prosecution is barred in relation to this incident.

It's very muddy now because of the unhelpful intervention of the Chief Magistrate. The only way to absolutely prevent prosecution for this matter is to pay the Penalty Fare.

They can't prosecute whilst an appeal is ongoing but the Chief Magistrate has given them a route to prosecuting if the appeal fails. It is unclear whether they can prosecute immediately once the first stage appeal has failed or whether they have to wait for the appeal time limit to pass or what. This lack of clarity is what happens when the Chief Magistrate makes his own laws up on the hoof.

The TOC could then decide to do a deep dive into your purchasing history and send you threatening letters, but without having stopped you previously it’s very unlikely they would have the evidence to prove to a high enough standard that you committed offences in the past.

WMR, who issued the Penalty Fare, have form for 'double dipping' even where a Penalty Fare has been issued and paid.

WMR will very likely conduct a trawl of the OP's transaction history irrespective of whether they pay the Penalty Fare or not.

 

[Sawa71]

There is (or was) a gate though, hence my curiosity...

That’s exactly what I meant….I came from that gate next to the car parking. I’ve asked my friend to take photos of everything and send them to me, there’s a building next to it but it’s closed and my friend said it’s only opening during early morning. And having no ticket barrier there is not a hidden knowledge I can actually find it on google..while I literally said in first post that there’s no ticket barriers. Would this help with the appeal?

 

[Sawa71]

The ongoing discussion is interesting and does suggest there might be part of the story missing, but ignoring that for now:

If your appetite for risk is very low and you have the money to pay the PF, that may be the best option. But if you appeal on the grounds that it was issued for a reason not permitted by the regulations, as long as the TOC doesn’t withdraw the PF before the first appeal is decided/times out (which seems to almost never happen - someone please correct me if I’m wrong!) then prosecution is barred in relation to this incident.

The TOC could then decide to do a deep dive into your purchasing history and send you threatening letters, but without having stopped you previously it’s very unlikely they would have the evidence to prove to a high enough standard that you committed offences in the past.

They could look to recover money through civil proceedings where undeniable proof is not required and instead cases are decided on what is most likely to have happened, but would only be able to recover their actual loss, not the much higher Anytime fares they usually ask for in settlements, and anyway without the threat of a criminal record they have far less leverage anyway.

So you can pay the PF and almost certainly make this all go away, or you can appeal it, keep your money and it’s still quite likely nothing further will happen.

Either way, you’re now on their radar and if you keep doing this they will catch you - you need to buy the correct tickets from now on!

My knowledge on this comes from reading the hundreds of pages of excellent advice given on this forum, I am not an expert myself and am happy to be corrected.

Thank you very much for your detailed reply! I’ll bear that in mind next time.

 

[sheff1]

Not many people sightseeing in the UK buy a 12 month railcard?

A railcard could easily pay for itself in one return journey from London to Bath or York never mind somebody visiting for a few weeks and making a number of journeys.

There have been many instances of foreign visitors seeking trip planning advice on this forum being advised to buy a railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is (or was) a gate though, hence my curiosity...

OP already vacillated on this by saying there are no barriers (plural) but also that they (plural) are also broken or always open in the same sentence, it's unworthy of belief:

Wolverton has no ticket barriers (or they not working, they're always opening)

Just multiple explanations as to why they apparently managed to board the train at Wolverton when anyone who has been there knows there are no barriers. OP's never been there, let alone taken lots of trips from there. Better hope there aren't loads of Wolverton to MK tickets in the online account, because the company will audit this and they weren't born yesterday.

Anyway if the OP posts the pic they say they took of the open barrier I'm sure it will shed some light!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2025 ==

A railcard could easily pay for itself in one return journey from London to Bath or York never mind somebody visiting for a few weeks and making a number of journeys.

OP subsequently explained they are regularly commuting Oxford to London. Nothing makes any sense, nothing passes the smell test, and the train company will know this too.

 

[Sawa71]

Here are some purchased tickets from past journeys if it helps

mods note - since removed

 

[tram21]

Here are some purchased tickets from past journeys if it helps

This doesn't help at all really. Also don't post tickets as they could easily be used to be refunded/ claimed delay repay on.

 

[Starmill]

Here are some purchased tickets from past journeys if it helps

You were asked for a picture of the ticket gates. Not the tickets.