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New Northern service between Leeds & Sheffield: how could it be improved further?

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Pretzel578

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I would’ve like to see the New Northern fast service via Wakefield Westgate to stop at Rotherham Central.

I just feel that for a town it's size it isn't really connected with a fast/express service (I know it has the hourly Leeds stopper), but a quicker option from Rotherham to Leeds would be nice.
 
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Peter749

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I would’ve like to see the New Northern fast service via Wakefield Westgate to stop at Rotherham Central
Unless I'm reading the timetable wrong the Fast service to Leeds goes via Barnsley and Wakefield Kirkgate

There are 3 tph via Barnsley, two fast at xx.18 & xx.48 and one slow at xx.02 via Barnsley, Kirkgate and Castleford

And the xx.15 Sheffield to Leeds via Rotherham and Westgate calling at most stations
 

craigybagel

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Unless I'm reading the timetable wrong the Fast service to Leeds goes via Barnsley and Wakefield Kirkgate

There are 3 tph via Barnsley, two fast at xx.18 & xx.48 and one slow at xx.02 via Barnsley, Kirkgate and Castleford

And the xx.15 Sheffield to Leeds via Rotherham and Westgate calling at most stations
It would appear it's not starting until December 29th
See here for details of Northern departures from Leeds to Sheffield on that day. XX:45 is the new fast service.
 

Killingworth

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It would appear it's not starting until December 29th
See here for details of Northern departures from Leeds to Sheffield on that day. XX:45 is the new fast service.
5 Northern services an hour, plus XC, will provide scope for some confusion amongst occasional users unfamilar with the routing details.
 

YorksLad12

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Unless I'm reading the timetable wrong the Fast service to Leeds goes via Barnsley and Wakefield Kirkgate
Yes, you are reading it wrong.

The via Barnsley services were always known as semi-fasts - they take roughly one hour and run every half-hour, continuing to Nottingham or Lincoln.

The true 'fast' service is the new one via Westgate, not Kirkgate, taking the faster route via Swinton.

Both routes also have stopping services, so that's five Northern, one XC, taking between 40 minutes and 90 minutes depending on which one you catch!
 

Iskra

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Yes, you are reading it wrong.

The via Barnsley services were always known as semi-fasts - they take roughly one hour and run every half-hour, continuing to Nottingham or Lincoln.

The true 'fast' service is the new one via Westgate, not Kirkgate, taking the faster route via Swinton.

Both routes also have stopping services, so that's five Northern, one XC, taking between 40 minutes and 90 minutes depending on which one you catch!
Is there an argument for switching the new Westgate Fast service to Nottingham, and one of the existing sem-fasts to terminate at Sheffield instead?
 

YorksLad12

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Is there an argument for switching the new Westgate Fast service to Nottingham, and one of the existing sem-fasts to terminate at Sheffield instead?
That's how it was announced, almost 10 years ago. Bradford-Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham via Westgate, so that Leeds-Nottingham is 20 minutes faster. Writing it on paper and making the paths line up were two different things...
 

dk1

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Is there an argument for switching the new Westgate Fast service to Nottingham, and one of the existing sem-fasts to terminate at Sheffield instead?
Would depend on whether it then messes up the almost half-hourly interval with Norwich services at Nottingham/Sheffield.
 

Iskra

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Would depend on whether it then messes up the almost half-hourly interval with Norwich services at Nottingham/Sheffield.
That’s an odd argument against a 20-minute journey time saving!
 

dk1

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That’s an odd argument against a 20-minute journey time saving!
Im not so sure. You’ve got to balance both and I would imagine the even interval frequency between Sheffield & Nottingham is of more importance.
 

Peter749

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Is there an argument for switching the new Westgate Fast service to Nottingham, and one of the existing sem-fasts to terminate at Sheffield instead?
Not checked Southbound but the Nottingham is xx.13 to xx.18 at Sheffield so would not work with the xx.52 to Leeds.

The Norwich arrives at xx.38 then the London at xx.42 so the Nottingham would arrive about xx.45 - so two trains from Nottingham 7 mins apart then nothing for 53 mins.
Is that a good service?

Passengers from Nottingham could catch the Norwich arrive Sheffield xx.38 and change to the xx.52 - journey time 1h54m
 

dk1

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That’s an odd argument against a 20-minute journey time saving!
Looking at the journey saving it appears to be just 10-12 minutes in many hours at the expense of Barnsley but more importantly Dronfield, Chesterfield and other stations south of Sheffield that would lose their direct services to the magnet that is Meadowhall.
 

Halish Railway

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The new service is set up to run in the opposite half-hour to the Cross Country service between the two cities, but to do this requires a very short turnaround time at Leeds, hence why for the sake of punctuality it should start at Sheffield, where it will have a much longer turnaround.

The next step in improving services between Sheffield and Leeds will be the extension of platform 17 at Leeds to lengthen the services that go via Barnsley. After that the next step would be to increase the linespeeds north of Barnsley, in particular removing the crawl over Horbury Junction and through the southbound platform at Normanton. 4 trains per hour between Leeds and Sheffield taking less than 50 minutes would be a good and very achievable outcome.
 

cle

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Extending to Nottingham might be good, even if it's on top of the current service, and acts as a fast for that section too. With an optional Chesterfield call if pathable on that section - it's almost like a TPE express.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Looking at the journey saving it appears to be just 10-12 minutes in many hours at the expense of Barnsley but more importantly Dronfield, Chesterfield and other stations south of Sheffield that would lose their direct services to the magnet that is Meadowhall.
Still think it's odd that the new service won't call at Meadowhall given the traffic it generates. I can understand skipping Rotherham Central as that's on a loop (with single track sections) off the mainline, but it'll have to run through the platforms at Meadowhall anyway. How much of a time penalty would a call there be? 2-3 minutes?
 

Iskra

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Still think it's odd that the new service won't call at Meadowhall given the traffic it generates. I can understand skipping Rotherham Central as that's on a loop (with single track sections) off the mainline, but it'll have to run through the platforms at Meadowhall anyway. How much of a time penalty would a call there be? 2-3 minutes?
Totally agree, but it doesn’t seem to be possible
 

dk1

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Still think it's odd that the new service won't call at Meadowhall given the traffic it generates. I can understand skipping Rotherham Central as that's on a loop (with single track sections) off the mainline, but it'll have to run through the platforms at Meadowhall anyway. How much of a time penalty would a call there be? 2-3 minutes?
Yes I agree. Didn’t think I’d ever see a local service not stop there.
 

yorksrob

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If there is a new fast service via Westgate, one of the Barnsley semi-fasts needs to call at Normanton throughout the day to give it a half - hourly service to Leeds.

Other than that, how about a buffet trolly?
 

Iskra

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Even they stop there. I suppose though TPE do not operate any services between those two cities.
No, but they sign the route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If there is a new fast service via Westgate, one of the Barnsley semi-fasts needs to call at Normanton throughout the day to give it a half - hourly service to Leeds.

Other than that, how about a buffet trolly?
And extend to Nottingham and Glasgow at each end of course :D
 

dk1

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No, but they sign the route.
No doubt they do but it would make no sense to complicate things by adding a third operator to the route. They would also no doubt not have the available rolling stock and traincrew agreements with unions would need negotiating too.
 

Iskra

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No doubt they do but it would make no sense to complicate things by adding a third operator to the route. They would also no doubt not have the available rolling stock and traincrew agreements with unions would need negotiating too.
I think it would make sense as TP are in a fairly luxurious position with rolling stock, and if Northern are planning 158’s (an assumption) then 185’s with a superior door layout might be able to squeeze in a Meadowhall stop instead.
 

yorksrob

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No, but they sign the route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


And extend to Nottingham and Glasgow at each end of course :D

Surely that would require a full buffet car !

I think it would make sense as TP are in a fairly luxurious position with rolling stock, and if Northern are planning 158’s (an assumption) then 185’s with a superior door layout might be able to squeeze in a Meadowhall stop instead.

Out of interest, where are Northern expecting to get the rolling stock, since they don't seem awash with it at the moment !
 

Iskra

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Surely that would require a full buffet car !



Out of interest, where are Northern expecting to get the rolling stock, since they don't seem awash with it at the moment !
Hopefully someone knowledgeable can answer that for us. My guesses would be reducing a 4-carriage 150 formation from the Knottingley service, or the Sheffield via Moorthorpe routes to 2 carriages, to displace 158’s to operate the new service. Someone did mention a 170 stabling at Leeds for most of the day, so that could displace a 150 off the Harrogate line too. The S&C probably doesn’t need 4-car 158’s in winter either.
 

Bayum

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Even they stop there. I suppose though TPE do not operate any services between those two cities.
And TPE provide a direct connection to Meadowhall from destinations without similar services
 

yorksrob

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Hopefully someone knowledgeable can answer that for us. My guesses would be reducing a 4-carriage 150 formation from the Knottingley service, or the Sheffield via Moorthorpe routes to 2 carriages, to displace 158’s to operate the new service. Someone did mention a 170 stabling at Leeds for most of the day, so that could displace a 150 off the Harrogate line too. The S&C probably doesn’t need 4-car 158’s in winter either.

Sounds a bit too much like robbing Peter to pay Paul for my liking !

To be fair to the S&C, some of its services already drop to 2 carriage during the winter.
 

tbtc

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extend to Nottingham and Glasgow at each end of course :D

HOUSE!

More seriously, I've got the suggestion of... maybe just letting this as-yet-untested service bedding in for a year or so before we can tell what further improvements are needed?

I appreciate this won't go down well on here but maybe a year or so of operation will show us:

1. Are the trains appropriate/ too big/ two small?

2. Has this new service removed much pressure from the XC train (which is currently the only service that covers the twenty nine crow-miles between Sheffield and Leeds in under an hour)?

3. Has this new service removed much pressure from the "semi fast" Barnsley services?

4. Are paths/ staff/ units reliable enough?

The first question may affect any proposed Meadowhall stops. I'm in two mins here. The shopping centre is clearly a huge draw/ interchange etc, as well as acting like a Parkway for half of Rotherham

However, I'd like to believe that there may be demand for at least some of these new Sheffield -Leeds fasts to be doubled up, which the platforms at Meadowhall (specified in the penny pinching era of 1980s British Rail) might not cope with (e.g. a doubled up 170)

So, even if paths were available for a stop there, I can see the logic in skipping Meadowhall until it's known whether to prioritise longer trains between the cities or whether there would be room on a three coach unit to accommodate short distance passengers too

Remember, given the penalties for delays etc, it's a lot easier to NOT serve a market than to serve it 90% of the time (but have to deal with compensation for the 10% of times you can't run it) - I'm not defending the status quo but such penalties may explain the reluctance when it comes to making improvements that can't be sufficiently guaranteed

Same goes for ripping up the current Lincoln- Sheffield- Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham diagrams. Logically, you'd be better to have Nottingham getting a faster service to Leeds but losing the Meadowhall link from Chesterfield/ Dronfield wouldn't be popular - let's just see how things develop over the next year or so

For the second point, this has long been one of the biggest pressure points on the entire XC network. It must be frustrating for longer distance passengers to have to deal with the local scrums (especially now ECML stations have lost the vast majority of "via Doncaster" trains to Birmingham etc, meaning a twenty minute penalty on the busier Leeds route)

The third point would need to be known before adding in local stops at places like Normanton.

I've long argued that the Platform Seventeen issue at Leeds could be improved if you effectively merged the existing trains to provide a kind of half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley- Kirkgate - Platform Seventeen - Castleford - Pontefract - Knottingley diagram (not advertised as a through service, but running them that way could mean a single train occupying Platform Seventeen for a ten minute layover then a five minute gap before the next train did so) meaning that each train could be three/ four carriages, instead of the nonsense of two single DMUs cramming in together where the Castleford train can't leave until the semi fast does

That would mean that the two semi fast could each pick up ONE of the stops currently served by the stopper (Darton OR Knottingley), with the stopper withdrawn north of Barnsley (since the Huddersfield service covers the link from Kirkgate to Castleford, and the Castleford to Leeds service would continue to be half hourly as above)

However, for now. we don't know whether sufficient Sheffield passengers will free up capacity on the existing services to facilitate anything like Knottingley calls, especially as that time penalty would potentially mess up the already-fragile situation at Platform Seventeen, so I'd forget about such changes for a year or two

And fourthly... Who knows? I'd like to think that Northern will find the units and staff for this service (even if that's just with the savings they've made by scrapping the Gainsborough stopper that Arriva managed to resource...), but let's walk before we run. Maybe it'll run okay midweek but struggle to find staff willing to do weekend overtime in the run up to Christmas (which is when a Meadowhall service would be most useful)

(And, by the time the answers to the above are known, maybe we'll know whether there'll be any kind of "TPE" in the brave new world of GBR... I'm doubtful)
 

stevieinselby

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I would’ve like to see the New Northern fast service via Wakefield Westgate to stop at Rotherham Central.

I just feel that for a town it's size it isn't really connected with a fast/express service (I know it has the hourly Leeds stopper), but a quicker option from Rotherham to Leeds would be nice.
The problem is that Rotherham Central is on a single-track loop with flat junctions at either end, which means that it is a challenge to provide it with a good service – the current pattern of two unevenly-spaced trains per hour in each direction is probably about as good as it will get without compromising reliability across the wider network. This is why there have been proposals for a new Rotherham station on the mainline, either reopening Masborough or a new station at Parkgate, which would allow the town to get a much better level of service.
That’s an odd argument against a 20-minute journey time saving!
Not at all. There are 3 times as many passengers travelling between Nottingham and Sheffield as between Nottingham and Leeds. Therefore if you have a choice between optimising the service for the 190k annual passengers between Nottingham and Sheffield, or optimising the service for the 68k annual passengers between Nottingham and Leeds, it seems a pretty easy and obvious choice to do the first one, which means dovetailing the Northern service with the EMR to give a half-hourly service from Nottingham to Sheffield, even if that is then at the expense of a slightly longer journey for those passengers staying on the train through to Leeds.
 
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