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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
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You are determined to make out that he is some kind of impartial commentator who always acted with integrity and honesty.
No, rather that it is dishonest to say "he lied to the Queen". That is clearly at the very least an extremely bad faith reading and is the equivalent of blaming the Speaker for Parliament passing bad laws, or the monarch for giving assent.

This sort of thing matters because when one tells lies to snipe during discourse it makes things toxic and make sure that nobody ever takes you seriously. What I'm saying, if you take the time to read my now tediously repetitive posts, is that no, it's unfair to accuse Mogg *of that specific thing*.

And of course, you trying to suggest I'm making out he is an impartial commentator is bad faith, and silly, because I explicitly took the time to say that Mogg acknowledged his rather huge bias in the video. Of course he's biased. He's a Tory. But he has also engaged in better faith than some of the people here, and frankly I know what I prefer!
 
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RailUK Forums

Richard Scott

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Of course he's biased. He's a Tory. But he has also engaged in better faith than some of the people here, and frankly I know what I prefer!
Think would be better to say he's biased because he's a human, not sure it's just Tories who are biased, but that's how it reads!!!
 

317 forever

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I have never been really interested in politics but the news that police and crime commissioners are to go, along with 18 thousand administrators in the NHS is the best bit of news for ages
isn’t it a bit “Trumplike” in some ways
I disagreed with their creation all along.

The role has now been subsumed into that of the Greater Manchester Mayor. A similar development is to occur elsewhere where practicable.

I spoilt my ballot paper in 2012, saying I disagreed with the role and there should have been a referendum. This is the only time in my life I have spoilt a ballot paper.
 

KevinBrum12

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The PCC's have been a waste of space since they were created, The old Police Authorities weren't much "cop", but May could have made them electable.

Given how incompetent Reform are and that the proposals for more directly Mayors are not that popular we are moving towards a model of 9 regional police forces, like South West Constabulary and East Anglia Police.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

As for the answer to Moggs question "What happens if Keir Starmer goes?" the answer has to be "Who knows?"

If there was a Manchester plot, the wheels have fallen off it. Burnham is not as popular in the country as he thinks and to become PM he has got to overcome two large hurdles, one of them winning a Parliamentary Constituency and then convincing your Labour colleagues in the House of Commons you would be a better PM. Given how unpopular Labour is across the country right now, the first hurdle is probably as large as Becher's Brook at Aintree.

Starmer could get to a point where he just thinks "I've had enough; let them get on with it." This is exactly what happened when David Cameron called Pickfords into number 10 ib 2016. The big hope, nay "dream" of Farage and Mogg is that there is an early General Election as they know the run up to 2027 is their best chance of a Reform Government. The reality is Labour will want to hold onto office as long as possible so I think if Starmer resigned, Streeting steps up but continues to govern on Starmer's 2024 manifesto til the next General Election which is as late as possible.
.
 
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Razorblades

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I recall my disbelief when sharing a table with the then P&CC for Birmingham, David Jamieson, plus two of his (presumably) staff or team, on a New Street to Euston service one morning in 2015, as he spoke volubly and highly indiscreetly about certain cases that were going through the local courts system at that time. That they were travelling second class was laudable, the indiscreet nature of his conduct was not. Anyway, that was under a previous Labour administration, so is strictly speaking OT.
 

zero

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Starmer could get to a point where he just thinks "I've had enough; let them get on with it." This is exactly what happened when David Cameron called Pickfords into number 10 ib 2016. The big hope, nay "dream" of Farage and Mogg is that there is an early General Election as they know the run up to 2027 is their best chance of a Reform Government. The reality is Labour will want to hold onto office as long as possible so I think if Starmer resigned, Streeting steps up but continues to govern on Starmer's 2024 manifesto til the next General Election which is as late as possible.
Maybe I am missing something since the only place I currently follow UK politics is this forum. But given Labour's parliamentary majority and the next election only being due in 2029, why does Starmer appear to care so much about how he is doing in opinion polls? Should he not be focusing more on keeping his MPs happy (yes, becoming intensely unpopular with the public won't help with that) and not worry about the next election until late 2027 or so? Reform may be doing well with the general public now, but they can't call the GE.
 

JamieL

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I suspect Starmer is worried about local election wipeout. If there are big losses, MPs become nervous and he will be replaced. Thatcsaid, I think the writing is on the wall for this Labour Government regardless.
 

AlterEgo

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Starmer does have the appearance of a dead man walking. Though this would scribe undue sentience to him. Whoever the next Labour leader is will be a disaster anyway. They have really managed to screw up the whole gig so far. Terrible communicators the lot of them.
 

brad465

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Starmer does have the appearance of a dead man walking. Though this would scribe undue sentience to him. Whoever the next Labour leader is will be a disaster anyway. They have really managed to screw up the whole gig so far. Terrible communicators the lot of them.
I didn't think it was possible to have communications so bad that hiring Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor to Director of Communications would actually improve them.
 

styles

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What annoys me most at the moment is the chaos.

Starmer/Labour were elected on a ticket of bringing some sort of stability to politics, after the Tories cycling through party leaders like I clean my oven, the Truss/Kwarteng budget, the dodgy PPE contracts. Starmer is boring, but people were almost quite relieved about that.

Instead we've had poor political strategy like drip-feeding benefits cuts for elderly people, unnecessary will-they-won't-they on tax rises, and an apparent inability for senior figures to pay the right taxes and licence fees on their second homes.

It's hardly 'strong and stable', to coin an infamous phrase.

If you're going to make major policy announcements, particularly on finance and the economy, bundle them up into a package so you can talk about how some negatives will be offset by positives, and stick to them. Otherwise it just looks out of control and you lose the credit you need to deal with personal mistakes like paying the wrong tax on a home you buy, or entrusting an estate agent (that notably trustworthy and respected industry) with your legal obligations as a landlord.
 

OhNoAPacer

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I suspect Starmer is worried about local election wipeout. If there are big losses, MPs become nervous and he will be replaced. Thatcsaid, I think the writing is on the wall for this Labour Government regardless.
When a party loses local councillors it loses the local support network that they give to parliamentary candidates.
Local elections also have a tendency, probably more than that in truth, to be used as a kind of referendum on what the electorate think of the current government.
 

brad465

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When a party loses local councillors it loses the local support network that they give to parliamentary candidates.
Local elections also have a tendency, probably more than that in truth, to be used as a kind of referendum on what the electorate think of the current government.
There's a long history of the governing party doing poorly in local elections, only to then win the following general election. Labour were doing well in locals from 2011-2014, but obviously didn't win the 2015 GE. There have been exceptions though, mainly during the the Brexit and Covid periods.

Starmer will be an easy scapegoat for a Wales' Senedd wipeout, but it's worth mentioning that Welsh Labour hasn't exactly helped themselves either: firstly Vaughan Gething's dodgy donation scandal and the Covid inquiry coverup, but also they've governed Wales for 27 years, the electorate were always going to tire of one party eventually.
 

OhNoAPacer

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There's a long history of the governing party doing poorly in local elections, only to then win the following general election. Labour were doing well in locals from 2011-2014, but obviously didn't win the 2015 GE. There have been exceptions though, mainly during the the Brexit and Covid periods.

Starmer will be an easy scapegoat for a Wales' Senedd wipeout, but it's worth mentioning that Welsh Labour hasn't exactly helped themselves either: firstly Vaughan Gething's dodgy donation scandal, but also they've governed Wales for 27 years, the electorate were always going to tire of one party eventually.
Very true, but that applied to a political landscape that I don't think exists anymore.
We seem to have moved to a place where elections are becoming, largely, single issue events. At the moment a lot of the political space is taken up by stopping the boats, all other issues then become about how that would improve things, the 'if only we weren't robbing pensioners to put up illegal immigrants in luxury hotels' kind of thing.
Any government is going to look bad trying to do things when it all gets looked at through the prism of migration.
That is not to say that Starmer, and the government in general, haven't been guilty of a few ready foot fire events.
 

brad465

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Very true, but that applied to a political landscape that I don't think exists anymore.
We seem to have moved to a place where elections are becoming, largely, single issue events. At the moment a lot of the political space is taken up by stopping the boats, all other issues then become about how that would improve things, the 'if only we weren't robbing pensioners to put up illegal immigrants in luxury hotels' kind of thing.
Any government is going to look bad trying to do things when it all gets looked at through the prism of migration.
That is not to say that Starmer, and the government in general, haven't been guilty of a few ready foot fire events.
Yes this was something Boris Johnson did in 2019: everything was about "getting Brexit done", whether because being in the EU stopped x being possible, or because y was only possible once Brexit was not consuming political time anymore.

Social media character limits and short-attention spans may also have something to say about this - blaming everything on one issue is simple and eye-catching; nobody will bother reading a comprehensive analysis of all the causes of all of society's problems and how intertwined they all are.
 

martin butler

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If people vote reform in large numbers in local elections, then we all deserve the chaos that will bring, because it will be chaos, the reality will overpower the propaganda and by the next election, I do believe that Reform will have been exposed for what they are, and Labour should gain from it,
As I see it, next time, it's going to be very close, most likely greens, or LibDems, as the main danger, the right will have lost its appeal, because people will have seen first-hand, through their own councils, what's on offer. and if after that people still want to vote reform, then, they clearly do not value democracy.
 

Broucek

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What annoys me most at the moment is the chaos.

Starmer/Labour were elected on a ticket of bringing some sort of stability to politics, after the Tories cycling through party leaders like I clean my oven, the Truss/Kwarteng budget, the dodgy PPE contracts. Starmer is boring, but people were almost quite relieved about that.

Instead we've had poor political strategy like drip-feeding benefits cuts for elderly people, unnecessary will-they-won't-they on tax rises, and an apparent inability for senior figures to pay the right taxes and licence fees on their second homes.

It's hardly 'strong and stable', to coin an infamous phrase.

If you're going to make major policy announcements, particularly on finance and the economy, bundle them up into a package so you can talk about how some negatives will be offset by positives, and stick to them. Otherwise it just looks out of control and you lose the credit you need to deal with personal mistakes like paying the wrong tax on a home you buy, or entrusting an estate agent (that notably trustworthy and respected industry) with your legal obligations as a landlord.
This. (Although it sounds like you clean your oven too often ;))

The Budget kite-flying has been awful. Process should be: a) look at some ideas and cost them; b) speak to experts in government and outside about any unintended consequences or risks for these ideas; c) weigh up and decide; and d) keep silent until the Budget. The kite flying has caused real world consequences for business planning and for individuals: some private sector people with biggish pensions have taken their tax free lump sum immediately which is (probably) uncessary and unwise.

BTW, it drives me mad that pension tax relief is seen as a legitimate part of annual budget planning. Pension reform should be once every 10 years at most and should ideally have cross-party support. It also drives me mad that ministers and civil servants with government guaranteed, defined benefit, index linked pensions have so little empathy with private sector pensions where investment, longevity and inflation risks are borne by the individual. (As an aside, while a private sector pension pot of £500m sounds absolutely huge, it equates to a pension of c. £20k per annum - a decent income but hardly super-rich.)
 

Tetchytyke

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If there was a Manchester plot, the wheels have fallen off it. Burnham is not as popular in the country as he thinks and to become PM he has got to overcome two large hurdles, one of them winning a Parliamentary Constituency and then convincing your Labour colleagues in the House of Commons you would be a better PM.
I don't think there was a plot, rather than Burnham merely being the best-placed person (relatively high profile but not in Westminster) to run the flag up the pole and see what reaction it gets. The reaction in the party seems to have been pretty positive, which is why you're now getting more credible candidates putting it out there.

On the subject of Wes Streeting, he is the second worst person that I have ever had the misfortune of working with, back in his NUS days. He is, in my humble opinion, as slimy as he is stupid. The sort of greasy individual who will walk off mid-sentence once he realises you're not someone who he can piggyback off, but without sufficient intelligence and tact to even try and disguise that's what he's doing. I'm well aware that my job at the time was definitely towards the dogsbody end of the scale, but his look of utter contempt when he was talking to me and realised this was something else.

Starmer has all the charisma of a housebrick but you can't accuse him of a lack of intelligence. A lack of nous, definitely, as we see with the fact that Morgan McSweeney wasn't sacked a year ago. But he's not stupid.

Streeting also has the charisma of a housebrick but, in my opinion, he also has the intellect of one. It's a matter of genuine regret for me that 500 people in Ilford didn't vote the other way. You'd get more sense out of a tub of Play-Dough.
 

gg1

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If people vote reform in large numbers in local elections, then we all deserve the chaos that will bring, because it will be chaos, the reality will overpower the propaganda and by the next election, I do believe that Reform will have been exposed for what they are, and Labour should gain from it,
As I see it, next time, it's going to be very close, most likely greens, or LibDems, as the main danger, the right will have lost its appeal, because people will have seen first-hand, through their own councils, what's on offer. and if after that people still want to vote reform, then, they clearly do not value democracy.
I hope Reform do well in next round of local elections for that exact reason, demonstrate their incompetence but with there being statutory limitations (the vast majority of any council's budget is tied up in providing services they are legally obliged to do) on how much damage they can actually cause.
 

Tetchytyke

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We seem to have moved to a place where elections are becoming, largely, single issue events. At the moment a lot of the political space is taken up by stopping the boats, all other issues then become about how that would improve things
This is entirely deliberate from the people in the media who are co-ordinating the Reform surge.

Last year, 36,000 people arrived in small boats. It's looking like it will be a similar amount this year. For context, that's less than the number of people who go and watch Leeds United every week. They're not even a statistical rounding error in the context of a country which has a population of almost 70 million people.

But instead the coverage is all about "record numbers of arrivals in small boats" with all media, even the BBC, not bothering to put that into context.

A quick google tells me that the record number of arrivals in a calendar month was set in August 2022, with 8,631 people arriving that month. August 2025 saw 3,567 people arrive, so Labour have got a handle on it. 8,631 sounds like a lot of people. But again, for context, well over 1 million people a month travel through the port of Dover alone.

But instead of advertising this, Labour are just running around trying to ramp up the rhetoric. Shabana Mahmood, a second-generation immigrant trying to pull up the drawbridge behind her, was described by Nigel Farage as "sounding like a Reform supporter". Labour's strategy people no doubt think this is a compliment. In reality, by copying Farage's rhetoric all they are doing is strengthening Farage. As I've said several times, people who support Farage's message don't want a pub karaoke version of Farage, they want the OG version of Farage.

Labour won't attract Reform voters by acting like Reform. All they will do is ostracise those who don't vote Reform. I don't normally vote Labour, I normally vote LibDem. I voted Labour in 2024 to get the Tories out. I'm not sure I'll vote Labour in 2029.
 

Bletchleyite

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Labour won't attract Reform voters by acting like Reform. All they will do is ostracise those who don't vote Reform. I don't normally vote Labour, I normally vote LibDem. I voted Labour in 2024 to get the Tories out. I'm not sure I'll vote Labour in 2029.

It's unlikely I will either. Probably Green I suspect, though I do wish they'd bring in support for nuclear power. But it's not because of this - as you say it's a noise level problem regardless of which way you look at it (and could be solved just by taking on more caseworkers to process them more quickly). The problem I have is that I want a party that's willing to end austerity and tax and spend to fix our public services, and the Greens appear to be the only party offering that. Labour appear to me at present to be a mildly incompetent Tory party with higher taxation. Stepping back from increasing Income Tax, a policy I strongly support, was the last straw (not even the markets like that climbdown).
 

SargeNpton

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Last year, 36,000 people arrived in small boats. It's looking like it will be a similar amount this year. For context, that's less than the number of people who go and watch Leeds United every week. They're not even a statistical rounding error in the context of a country which has a population of almost 70 million people.
However, you do not have to find accommodation for the people who go to watch Leeds United.
 

zero

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A quick google tells me that the record number of arrivals in a calendar month was set in August 2022, with 8,631 people arriving that month. August 2025 saw 3,567 people arrive, so Labour have got a handle on it. 8,631 sounds like a lot of people. But again, for context, well over 1 million people a month travel through the port of Dover alone.
I'm not sure why the number of people arriving by small boats should be compared to the number of people travelling through the Port of Dover. The people arriving on small boats presumably intend to only make a single one-way trip and wish to gain residency in the UK, they are not coming for a brief holiday and then going back to France. So a more apt comparison would be with the number of people arriving to commence living in the UK on a visa - since the issue is the lack of background checks on these people as well as the provisioning of housing and services for them should they succeed in obtaining UK residency.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm not sure why the number of people arriving by small boats should be compared to the number of people travelling through the Port of Dover. The people arriving on small boats presumably intend to only make a single one-way trip and wish to gain residency in the UK
It's to give context as to just how small a number 36,000 really is. The media would have you believe that it is this huge overwhelming issue, hoards of people coming across every single day, overwhelming our borders. Yet more people legally come through one single port in a day than come on small boats in a year.

The focus on the issue is far beyond any proportion to the actual numbers involved.

However, you do not have to find accommodation for the people who go to watch Leeds United.
Depending on who you ask and how you count, there are somewhere between 600,000 and 800,000 hotel rooms in the UK. That's before we consider other types of accommodation.

I'm sure we can find somewhere to put 15,000 families.
as you say it's a noise level problem regardless of which way you look at it (and could be solved just by taking on more caseworkers to process them more quickly).
Absolutely. The temporary accommodation isn't good for anyone but because the Home Office are taking years to process claims everyone gets stuck. The simplest solution is to employ more decision makers, both at the Home Office and in the appeals process.

But we're in a position where the Home Office has been hollowed out and the judicial system has been hollowed out, and so the whole system has been gummed up.

Cynical old me thinks that this was deliberate too. The Johnson administration reduced the number of Home Office caseworkers and also handed lucrative contracts to CTM (formerly known as Corporate Travel Management) and Clearsprings, as well as the ubiquitous Serco and Mitie. CTM's CEO was handed an OBE by Johnson in 2021, and Clearsprings' owner donated money to the Conservative Party. The non-dom owner of Britannia Hotels, Alex Langsam, is also a prolific donor to the Conservative Party. Most of these people also donate to Labour because you always play both sides.

There are a lot of influential people making a lot of money from the current situation. Some people are absolutely filling their boots and- spoiler alert- it isn't the poor sods coming across the Channel in a pedalo.
 

styles

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This. (Although it sounds like you clean your oven too often ;))

The Budget kite-flying has been awful. Process should be: a) look at some ideas and cost them; b) speak to experts in government and outside about any unintended consequences or risks for these ideas; c) weigh up and decide; and d) keep silent until the Budget. The kite flying has caused real world consequences for business planning and for individuals: some private sector people with biggish pensions have taken their tax free lump sum immediately which is (probably) uncessary and unwise.
This is the thing. I have opinions on whether we should raise income taxes or not; but unless they do something truly radical I'm not really that bothered. What I am bothered by is my UK investments tanking because the markets are spooked by this bizarre tactic of pledging not to raise taxes, then effectively briefing the public that they will raise taxes, then realising it's unpopular (revelation - raising taxes is unpopular) and saying actually we won't raise taxes, and then instead raising taxes by stealth (lowering the thresholds for paying taxes, rather than raising the rates of tax).

If you think it's right to raise taxes, then raise taxes. Don't do this ridiculous opinion polling by media approach to decide your budget. Either you think your economic policy is raising taxes or you don't. And then, like you say, keep schtum until the budget day.

A few years ago I moved my investments to specifically exclude the UK because I already have a vested interest here (salary in GBP, rent/mortgage, etc) and I just don't trust our political system to deliver growth any more. Who is going to invest in a government like this, or in companies controlled by a government like this? It's just so volatile that there's no confidence in our markets.
BTW, it drives me mad that pension tax relief is seen as a legitimate part of annual budget planning. Pension reform should be once every 10 years at most and should ideally have cross-party support. It also drives me mad that ministers and civil servants with government guaranteed, defined benefit, index linked pensions have so little empathy with private sector pensions where investment, longevity and inflation risks are borne by the individual. (As an aside, while a private sector pension pot of £500m sounds absolutely huge, it equates to a pension of c. £20k per annum - a decent income but hardly super-rich.)
Yes the stuff around pensions is ridiculous. On the one hand we're telling people we want to reduce benefits, but on the other we're making it more difficult to invest in a pension. Auto-enrollment was great, however the default pension provider, NEST, has this insane approach to investment whereby if you're young your pension may be invested something silly like only 10% equities, because they don't want young people to be spooked by their pensions going down. This is instead of educating workers about how assets like equities will go up and down. The best time of your entire life to invest your retirement savings into equities is when you're fresh-faced graduating, but the government's preferred pension provider does the exact opposite! That's before we get on to the tinkering with annual allowances, lifetime allowances, etc. And Reeves reportedly looking at capping salary sacrifice at £2k/year. That's £167/month, meaning lots of low-middle earners will end up paying NI on pension contributions, which is a ridiculous tax rise as this is the main target group for increasing private pension contributions to reduce the reliance on pension credit and benefits in retirement.

I just think this government isn't serving the working class well, or the middle class, and in the absence of those, it's going to aggravate this wealth disparity we have which is at record highs. Labour has lost its way.
 

Senex

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It's not just all the stuff around pensions that shews what an ambiguous attitude our political lords and masters have towards savings in general. Save towards a good pension, or just save, and when you come to need care the government will not only have it all off you in care-home fees until you're nearly broke whilst at the same time expecting you through higher-than-necessary fees to subsidise those who have never bothered to save but will pay out for the latter group to be looked after just as if they had saved. Wasn't the Beveridge principle supposed to be to provide good services for those who had contributed plus a basic level of support for those who for whatever reason hadn't?
 

ainsworth74

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Save towards a good pension, or just save, and when you come to need care the government will not only have it all off you in care-home fees until you're nearly broke whilst at the same time expecting you through higher-than-necessary fees to subsidise those who have never bothered to save but will pay out for the latter group to be looked after just as if they had saved.
Of course Teresa May tried to cut the gordian knot that is care home fees and care for the elderly but was branded as instituting a dementia tax and sort of lost the election. No-one is going to dare touch that third rail now (Labour have kicked it into the long grass themselves with another report into what we should do).

We really are sunk as a country if we can't even sort something like how we care for the elderly without it becoming a vicious political circus.
 

AlterEgo

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It's not just all the stuff around pensions that shews what an ambiguous attitude our political lords and masters have towards savings in general. Save towards a good pension, or just save, and when you come to need care the government will not only have it all off you in care-home fees until you're nearly broke whilst at the same time expecting you through higher-than-necessary fees to subsidise those who have never bothered to save but will pay out for the latter group to be looked after just as if they had saved. Wasn't the Beveridge principle supposed to be to provide good services for those who had contributed plus a basic level of support for those who for whatever reason hadn't?
What sort of level of nursing or end of life care do you think people who have not saved should have?
 

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