Greater Manchester Fares Simplification

[Bletchleyite]

Also listed for Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport is a 1st class Anytime Short Return at £19.10, valid for return within one month and listed as set by Greater Manchester PTE even though GMPTE (now Transport for Greater Manchester) has been a Standard Class only PTE since the 1980s.

The TfGM multimodal tickets themselves are Standard only, but as there are trains that carry first class on that route I can't see why you wouldn't have point to point fares for that. There are for Bolton too. Along the same lines WMT as the inter available fare setter set First Class fares from Milton Keynes Central to Euston despite those only being worth purchasing if using Avanti services.

The presence of TfW fares on Airport-Piccadilly is a bit odd though. I wonder if someone forgot to talk to someone, or if there isn't jurisdiction to ask TfW to remove them as they are a devolved matter?

Edit: I note that for Stockport-Manchester the Avanti ones remain too, so perhaps the situation is really just that the two TOCs under DfT Operator have agreed to bin them off but there's not a way to force the ones not under DfTO to do it too. Thus perhaps the Avanti ones will go when Avanti becomes part of DfTO.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Also listed for Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport is a 1st class Anytime Short Return at £19.10, valid for return within one month..

A massive saving of 10p on buying 2 x 1st class £9.60 Anytime Day Singles. By the way, which operator(s) provide First Class accommodation between Manchester and Manchester Airport?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A massive saving of 10p on buying 2 x 1st class £9.60 Anytime Day Singles. By the way, which operator(s) provide First Class accommodation between Manchester and Manchester Airport?

I think just TransPennine Express.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I think just TransPennine Express.

Thanks for clarifying. Suppose having a non-TOC restricted first class ticket between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, also allows you to travel to the Airport in standard class, with Northern /TfW, if you've just missed a TPE and needs must.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for clarifying. Suppose having a non-TOC restricted first class ticket between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport, also allows you to travel to the Airport in standard class, with Northern /TfW, if you've just missed a TPE and needs must.

And if nothing else DfT Operator TOCs have stated they are moving away from TOC specific flexible tickets, so introducing one here would be against that. Yes, it'll mostly be used on TPE services, but that doesn't overly matter.

 

[AY1975]

The presence of TfW fares on Airport-Piccadilly is a bit odd though. I wonder if someone forgot to talk to someone, or if there isn't jurisdiction to ask TfW to remove them as they are a devolved matter?

Possibly, or else TfW (and/or Welsh transport ministers) was approached and asked to remove them but they refused.

Edit: I note that for Stockport-Manchester the Avanti ones remain too, so perhaps the situation is really just that the two TOCs under DfT Operator have agreed to bin them off but there's not a way to force the ones not under DfTO to do it too. Thus perhaps the Avanti ones will go when Avanti becomes part of DfTO.

As far as I can see, looking at brfares.com after 7th December the only remaining Stockport-Manchester Avanti-only fare will be the 1st class Anytime Day Return at £13.80 (and 1st class seven day Seasons and Standard Class Flexi Seasons). There are Avanti-only Standard Class Anytime Day Returns and Off-Peak Day Returns up until 6th Dec but not after 7th Dec.

 

[BurtonM]

This whole thing is spin - it's not an improvement, it's actually the groundworks for contactless rail travel/tap-and-go between stations in Greater Manchester, and it allows the trials/pilot scheme for this to take place while retaining a long term "benefit" for passengers even if it doesn't go ahead.

One of the trials is Stalybridge-Manchester Victoria on the once-hourly Northern services.

These used to have cheap 'AP Northern Only' advances, formerly as low as £1.90 but now seem to be about £2.60, where an off peak Stalybridge - Manchester Ctlz return would be £5.90.
If a £2.80 single fare comes in, it's a 20p rise on a Northern advance single, but also can be used on the 3 TPE services into Manchester per hour, and is also available from the ticket office and TVM - the 'AP Northern Only' tickets were only available online.
In that case, it's a decent tradeoff, as the extra 20p yields significant flexibility, but in many cases it will just be a flat increase on the old 'AP Northern Only' fare that offers no real benefit other than perceived convenience.

 

[dodecahedron67]

TfW only fares from the Airport will be removed as well.

Same as Avanti/XC/TfW only from Stockport.

It is all TOC specific fares within GM that are going

And yes, it is ground-laying for contactless from Dec 2026

 

[jfollows]

In the absence of proper fares reform, which we all know is “too hard”, this is the inevitable tinkering to pave the way for contactless ticketing.
The silly Avanti-only undercutting fares from Wilmslow to Manchester remain, but that’s because Wilmslow isn’t in Greater Manchester so nothing changes.

Many, many years ago Manchester Airport was appropriated by Greater Manchester or its predecessor, despite being pretty much in Cheshire, so the fares “reform” can at least apply to trains there.

 

[Krokodil]

This whole thing is spin - it's not an improvement

On the Airport route it will be a massive improvement, with far fewer travellers (be they foreign tourists or locals who only take the train for their annual trip to the airport) stung for a second ticket because they boarded the slightly late-running xx:55 TfW service with a ticket for the xx:00 Northern, or they were supposed to be on the xx:51 TPE one which has lost its path and will be coming next. Dwell times on platform 13 will be reduced because there will be no need for announcements about xyz not being valid followed by a scrum when the passenger checks what kind of ticket they have. "Does this go to the airport?" can simply be answered with a simple "yes" rather than "what kind of ticket do you have?"

 

[Starmill]

Apparently Transport for Wales were concerned about the appearance of an abuse of a dominant market position under the Competition Act. If TPE and TfW both raised prices simultaneously, it would be easy to see how that would have the appearance of anti-competitive collusion, which can attract huge penalties. Before anyone starts saying "but the railway doesn't work with competition" or "there shouldn't be competition in the market" then why did this situation exist in the first place if that's true? In % terms the price difference is significant, unlike for most Avanti West Coast only tickets.

They could have easily resolved this by agreeing to all charge the lower of the previous fares, of course. But we all know that DFTO operators have been instructed to raise revenue by any means necessary, so that idea was never on the table.

 

[AY1975]

TfW only fares from the Airport will be removed as well.

Same as Avanti/XC/TfW only from Stockport.

They are still listed on brfares.com for after 7th December, though, as I mentioned in #60 above. Hopefully that will be updated in due course, though.

The silly Avanti-only undercutting fares from Wilmslow to Manchester remain, but that’s because Wilmslow isn’t in Greater Manchester so nothing changes.

Ditto Manchester to Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe (with Manchester to Wilmslow and Crewe also having TfW-only fares and Manchester to Stoke Northern-only fares).

In some cases the difference in price between TOC-specific and all-operator fares for the same journeys is minimal, so I would suspect that the number of people who actually buy the operator-specific fares will be negligible where this is the case (or some people might inadvertently buy them and try to use them on the wrong operator's train).

 

[jfollows]

In some cases the difference in price between TOC-specific and all-operator fares for the same journeys is minimal, so I would suspect that the number of people who actually buy the operator-specific fares will be negligible where this is the case (or some people might inadvertently buy them and try to use them on the wrong operator's train).

People buy them because they show up at the top of the “cheapest” list on ticket machines and online without realising that for 10p more (or little more than that) they can buy the same ticket without operator restrictions.
Virgin introduced real discounts on Wilmslow-Manchester which Avanti adopted, but then nudged the fare up to almost the unrestricted fare for this reason.
It’s playing games with the system and it stinks because it’s designed to trick people. I expect that only a minority of people know about it.

When they were first introduced they represented a real discount and didn’t have the obnoxious afternoon peak return restrictions. I’d buy them because I didn’t mind sitting in first class for 20 minutes prior to departure at Piccadilly on my return leg. Now they’re just a con trick.

 

[mangad]

The silly Avanti-only undercutting fares from Wilmslow to Manchester remain, but that’s because Wilmslow isn’t in Greater Manchester so nothing changes.

They're not silly. To Avanti anyway. Those fares ensure the operator gets all the fare revenue and doesn't have to split it with any other company. They're great for the individual railway company, and the only reason these fares exist!

 

[fandroid]

They're not silly. To Avanti anyway. Those fares ensure the operator gets all the fare revenue and doesn't have to split it with any other company. They're great for the individual railway company, and the only reason these fares exist!

Sometimes the routing has the same effect. SWT grabbed just about all of the fare income from Basingstoke to London Terminals with "via Woking" fares. They were only a weeny bit cheaper than "Any Permitted" fares, which allowed GWR a share (for the via Reading route)

 

[TUC]

On the Airport route it will be a massive improvement, with far fewer travellers (be they foreign tourists or locals who only take the train for their annual trip to the airport) stung for a second ticket because they boarded the slightly late-running xx:55 TfW service with a ticket for the xx:00 Northern, or they were supposed to be on the xx:51 TPE one which has lost its path and will be coming next. Dwell times on platform 13 will be reduced because there will be no need for announcements about xyz not being valid followed by a scrum when the passenger checks what kind of ticket they have. "Does this go to the airport?" can simply be answered with a simple "yes" rather than "what kind of ticket do you have?"

Some of us, not just rail enthusiasts, are capable of knowing when we have a ticket for a specific operator/journey and can identify the correct train. I'm not sure why we should pay more to aid those who don't read what is in front on them on their ticket or on the screen.

 

[317 forever]

They're not silly. To Avanti anyway. Those fares ensure the operator gets all the fare revenue and doesn't have to split it with any other company. They're great for the individual railway company, and the only reason these fares exist!

They can even benefit us too.

In 2017 I was travelling from York to Newcastle, but was not sure of the timing and did not want to risk missing my chosen train or having a long wait for it.

The TOC specific tickets meant I could see what trains were due, what the TOC specific fares were, then choose accordingly.

From memory, it was around £16 on TPE, £17 on XC and £36 on VTEC, as the latter had no TOC specific fare.

As the XC train was due albeit a few minutes after the VTEC one, but the TPE one some time behind, I settled for the XC train. The icing on the cake was that it was a 125 and not particularly full either.

But, while TOC specific fares can as I say benefit us, these favour train experts but can confuse the general public.

 

[Djgr]

Everyone says that they want fares to be simplified and then when they are everyone moans.

Go figure.

 

[Watershed]

Everyone says that they want fares to be simplified and then when they are everyone moans.

Go figure.

The people calling for fares simplification are generally a different cohort to those complaining about the changes.

It's also entirely logical to support fares simplification in principle, but not the form of simplification that has been chosen (which just so happens to remove the cheaper fares...).

 

[Wallsendmag]

The people calling for fares simplification are generally a different cohort to those complaining about the changes.

It's also entirely logical to support fares simplification in principle, but not the form of simplification that has been chosen (which just so happens to remove the cheaper fares...).

It's time to throw away he current fares and start again , nothing works,TVMs are too complex to use web sites struggle to display all the fares even Travel Centre TIS struggle on some flows due tp the number of fares available.

 

[Watershed]

It's time to throw away he current fares and start again , nothing works,TVMs are too complex to use web sites struggle to display all the fares even Travel Centre TIS struggle on some flows due tp the number of fares available.

I don't disagree, but any new fares structure must be reasonably priced, not just "simple". Overpriced LNER-style "Simpler Fares" are not what people have in mind when they call for simpler fares!

Anyway, feel free to create a new thread if you want to discuss this element further

 

[Tester]

Some of us, not just rail enthusiasts, are capable of knowing when we have a ticket for a specific operator/journey and can identify the correct train. I'm not sure why we should pay more to aid those who don't read what is in front on them on their ticket or on the screen.

And I have the opposite opinion!

Fortunately we are both allowed

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's time to throw away he current fares and start again , nothing works,TVMs are too complex to use web sites struggle to display all the fares even Travel Centre TIS struggle on some flows due tp the number of fares available.

Bin the 5721 different levels of Advance and go back to SuperApex, Apex, Daypex, Advance and SuperAdvance with price solely dependent on whether you book two weeks, one week or one day in advance? Gets my vote.

 

[Haywain]

Bin the 5721 different levels of Advance and go back to SuperApex, Apex, Daypex, Advance and SuperAdvance with price solely dependent on whether you book two weeks, one week or one day in advance?

There is nothing wrong with having multiple levels of Advance fare, as long as they all have the same terms & conditions, which was certainly not the case for the various different fares that you want to return to. I will accept that it might be better if Advance fares were only geographically restricted to allow greater flexibility in changing arrangements though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Bin the 5721 different levels of Advance and go back to SuperApex, Apex, Daypex, Advance and SuperAdvance with price solely dependent on whether you book two weeks, one week or one day in advance? Gets my vote.

Funnily enough I said just that on one of our Simpler Fare project calls recently.

 

[jfollows]

Further investigation: the off-peak day return with railcard Wilmslow-Manchester goes up by 28% in price. Meaning that a Duo ticket without a railcard is now cheaper for two people. Until 7 December 2xoff-peak return tickets with 2 Together railcard are cheaper than the Duo.

So “simplification” seems to mean massive fare increase here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wilmslow is not in Greater Manchester though?

 

[Watershed]

Further investigation: the off-peak day return with railcard Wilmslow-Manchester goes up by 28% in price. Meaning that a Duo ticket without a railcard is now cheaper for two people. Until 7 December 2xoff-peak return tickets with 2 Together railcard are cheaper than the Duo.

So “simplification” seems to mean massive fare increase here.

No simplification at all there - just ridiculous 28-29% increases in most walk-up fares for that journey - including the Anytime Day Return. Looks like they've just forgotten to increase the Duo fare, as it's generally 50% more than the equivalent CDR.

It looks like this extends to Styal as well. They'll probably try to justify it by reference to the fact they've introduced single leg pricing to those flows at the same time, but it's utterly unjustifiable.

 

[Starmill]

Everyone says that they want fares to be simplified and then when they are everyone moans.

Go figure.

People on the forum rarely ask for 'simplification'. What they do ask for on the regular (indeed pretty much every day) is cheaper tickets. Go figure!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2025 ==

Wilmslow is not in Greater Manchester though?

The price changes aren't limited to Greater Manchester. Lots of fares over the border are being amended to reduce splitting opportunities / rinse people who live in wealthier areas (delete according to your preference).

 

[jfollows]

Wilmslow is not in Greater Manchester though?

No, but when anything “bad” happens, such as afternoon peak restrictions, suddenly they apply to Wilmslow as well anyway.