London North Eastern Railway (LNER) First Class service

[Greenback]

As soon as it went free, EC could think that people get what they're given, and if that's nothing then so be it - it's free, so no refund.

Of course, they're advertising a service and this means they could come unstuck. That is unless they change their advertising to say 'Don't expect anything and if you do get something, consider it a bonus'. Not quite as slick a campaign!

Not many are likely to upgrade to first class either as a result of that message! Unfortunately, what people appear to be getting at the moment doesn;t seem to much better!

Travelling round Europe a couple of years ago I found the standard of catering to be not particularly impressive. Some trains had vending machines which sounds like something that could be pursued.

Vending machines wouldn't last three minutes on some of the UK routes!

 

[philjo]

Travelling round Europe a couple of years ago I found the standard of catering to be not particularly impressive. Some trains had vending machines which sounds like something that could be pursued.

We had a very good meal in 2004 on the Paris to Venice sleeper. Service was by an Italian catering crew - we had Pasta & chicken I think & a good dessert. It was a fixed menu so no choice (other than a no meat option) & the menu was written in Italian but it was good value.

I think the International trains have better catering than the domestic services.

 

[me123]

As soon as it went free, EC could think that people get what they're given, and if that's nothing then so be it - it's free, so no refund.

Of course, they're advertising a service and this means they could come unstuck. That is unless they change their advertising to say 'Don't expect anything and if you do get something, consider it a bonus'. Not quite as slick a campaign!

Certainly I would have been complaining if I didn't get my breakfast. When I was booking my tickets to Newcastle, I was offered an upgrade to First Class for £x, which in their words offered me complimentary food and drink, with a full meal being offered on journeys over 70 minutes long. That's what they're advertising and that's what you should be getting. Nowhere does it say that it's subject to availability - all it says is that some items on the menu may be substituted at their discretion.

 

[Greenback]

Certainly I would have been complaining if I didn't get my breakfast. When I was booking my tickets to Newcastle, I was offered an upgrade to First Class for £x, which in their words offered me complimentary food and drink, with a full meal being offered on journeys over 70 minutes long. That's what they're advertising and that's what you should be getting. Nowhere does it say that it's subject to availability - all it says is that some items on the menu may be substituted at their discretion.

Presumably that covers your 'full meal' being substitued for two quarters of a sandwich then.

 

[WestCoast]

Vending machines wouldn't last three minutes on some of the UK routes!

I really like vending machines on trains, they have them on virtually all DB Regional-Express trains, they are capable of decent hot drinks! Not seen too many issues with vandalism, since they are well secured.

 

[Blindtraveler]

i think its defo the future of catering on
journeys of up to 3 hours in length and there are a multitude of routes, many of which dont have any refreshments at present which would benifit. But whatever you do, dont tel XC!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Travelling round Europe a couple of years ago I found the standard of catering to be not particularly impressive. Some trains had vending machines which sounds like something that could be pursued.

DB restaurants are reasonable, food is not too expensive and quite tasty. Drinks are reasonably priced too. SBB restaurant cars are expensive and the food is rubbish. OBB restaurant cars are somewhere inbetween, i.e. a bit more expensive than DB and the foods not quite so good but nowhere near as bad as SBB. CSD/MAV are quite cheap but the food is nothing special

 

[richa2002]

i think its defo the future of catering on
journeys of up to 3 hours in length and there are a multitude of routes, many of which dont have any refreshments at present which would benifit. But whatever you do, dont tel XC!

Why? It just ultimately means less choice. What's a fiver for something you actually want to eat and will probably be more substantial/better quality as a result of it being paid?

 

[Greenback]

i think its defo the future of catering on
journeys of up to 3 hours in length and there are a multitude of routes, many of which dont have any refreshments at present which would benifit. But whatever you do, dont tel XC!

Why? It just ultimately means less choice. What's a fiver for something you actually want to eat and will probably be more substantial/better quality as a result of it being paid?

I think they meant vending machines! On Xc, you wouldn;t be able to get near the machine on most trains without negotiating the people and bags blocking the way!

 

[The Sleeper]

Not many are likely to upgrade to first class either as a result of that message! Unfortunately, what people appear to be getting at the moment doesn;t seem to much better!



Vending machines wouldn't last three minutes on some of the UK routes!

What they advertise has the usual "clause 21"...'as available' which, if it aint' -they're covered by that statement which IS legally binding even by the draconian advertising standards agency - if you draft adverts for a living then you'll know!

 

[amcluesent]

One advantage of the light commuter loadings is faster service, we had the 'cheese or sweet' trolley before PBO for the 1st time I can recall since 22 May. Cheese, crackers and celery where nice, I was still munching when I detrained at PBO...

 

[Greenback]

What they advertise has the usual "clause 21"...'as available' which, if it aint' -they're covered by that statement which IS legally binding even by the draconian advertising standards agency - if you draft adverts for a living then you'll know!

Well, if they deliver a poor, inconsistent product that is far removed from the advertising, as they appear to be at the moment, it is not going to do their business or revenue any good at all.

I'm sure their expensive lawyers have ensured that the ads are suitable, but iff the point of this exercise was to retain existing and attract new first class custom, they are playing a very dangerous game, regardless of the legality of the advertising!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm sure their expensive lawyers have ensured that the ads are suitable, but iff the point of this exercise was to retain existing and attract new first class custom, they are playing a very dangerous game, regardless of the legality of the advertising!

I'm not even convinced of that logic!

I'm guessing its all a very defensive financial analysis. Which First Class passenger is going to initiate a legal claim against a corporate body where the damages (and the value of the Claim) are
. . . .
a meal?

Their advertising of Advance tickets are grossly misleading on two counts. But the worst 'loss' I could claim is a the cost of a ticket. And we don't expect the overstretched and under funded and under resourced Advertising Standards Authority to do anything, the're still ploughing through piles of consumer claims after the Banking, Insurance and other Financial Services 'offers'.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not even convinced of that logic!

I'm guessing its all a very defensive financial analysis. Which First Class passenger is going to initiate a legal claim against a corporate body where the damages (and the value of the Claim) are
. . . .
a meal?

Their advertising of Advance tickets are grossly misleading on two counts. But the worst 'loss' I could claim is a the cost of a ticket. And we don't expect the overstretched and under funded and under resourced Advertising Standards Authority to do anything, the're still ploughing through piles of consumer claims after the Banking, Insurance and other Financial Services 'offers'.

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether the ads are legal or not, if the product is not appealing to customers that it will be far more damaging than any admonishment by the ASA if someone reports EC for false or misleading advertising, and the ASA actually did something.

 

[jon0844]

The ASA usually takes ages and then only says someone can't use an ad/claim again. By then the campaign has probably ended anyway.

I can't see anyone taking legal action, but I can see lost custom as a result of feeling ripped off, yes even for something that is considered to be free.

 

[yorkie]

The ASA let EC say whatever they like, it seems! I know someone who has reported EC (and their predecessors NXEC) on numerous occasions, ASA just give flimsy arguments as to why they won't persue each case. I wouldn't expect them to act on this, based on their poor track record. And I expect EC will continue to make daft claims, as they have nothing to fear from ASA.

 

[Greenback]

The ASA usually takes ages and then only says someone can't use an ad/claim again. By then the campaign has probably ended anyway.

I can't see anyone taking legal action, but I can see lost custom as a result of feeling ripped off, yes even for something that is considered to be free.

Yes, there are current FC customers who may downgrade to standard as a result of the changes. And any new ones who may be tempted to try FC on account of the complimentary refreshments, might decide never to do so again. Not because they feel ripped off*, necesssarily, but because they do not feel it is good value for money.

Some customers may try the service because it is new, some may try it because of the advertising, some may even try it because they have heard negative things and want to see for themselves. They won't be back unless it is a good product that meets their needs!

(*I think there is a big difference in the two. In the former case you feel cheated, and may take furthe raction like making a complaint, while in the latter you shrug your shoulders and don't use it again)

 

[Blindtraveler]

well i certainly woant be using again ie
paying myself after todays 2 sandwitch quarters. not for a bit anyway, tea was kind a cold too!

 

[Failed Unit]

The ASA is toothless, as others have said even if they investigate east coast will be told not to run the add again some point next year. Doesn't seem to bother Ryanair although it may be egg on the face to East Coast.

Revenue is up at the moment as people try the service, it does make me wonder if what east coast will do should it fall back and reduce by the end of the year. I can't see them admitting that passengers don't like the new service! I have reduced my spend with east coast to nearly £0 but again they won't care, which is amazing when a loyal customer drops there spend by that much, even sky tried to talk me out of cancelling many years ago and I was only on the minimum package! Us Scottish people have air and Virgin as an option, but would some from Newcastle fly just because you get 2 sandwiches in first? The flying option will need to save a lot of hastle or they can just buy their picknick from Central station. The closer you get to London the less likely you are to change your habits.

They have annoyed passengers but will it send the York and Doncaster ones to GC? I doubt it the will just take food on the train, embarrass east coast but then they can quietly withdraw all catering in first. The 70 minute rule is interesting travel from Newcastle - Grantham change at York you should get absolutely nothing as you are making 2x under 70 minute journeys, or if you are lucky 2x Meals. What do you do? Buy at the station as at least you know you will get something.

Amazed we are still getting reports of 2x sandwiches, it is about time east coasts middle management mystery shopped, the high up in the org will be recognised but there are many that won't in the middle!

 

[Blindtraveler]

surprised? Angered in my case! PBO - EDB last night and I simply did an upgrade with an anytime return portion. No hot option or salad loaded, booz was running short too. taxi driver found himself stopping at the chinese!

 

[StrollerEd]

This traveller from Edinburgh used to prefer train to plane when traveling to London, and I used to enjoy the benefits that FC gave - peace, quiet and access to good food.

The changes made by EC have undermined all that.

I now find myself prefering to travel by plane. That may be challenged when the Olympic experience dominates the London ariports, especially City but a habit of a formerly frequent EC FC traveller has been changed with loss to its revenue.

 

[Blindtraveler]

someone should link all 70 pluss pages of
this thread to them!

 

[blackfive460]

Someone should link all 70 plus pages of
this thread to them!

No point. Some of EC's management will almost certainly already be aware of it but they will realise, and so should we, that we are just a very tiny and specialised minority and not worth worrying about.
As others have said, the only way this will change is if it shows up in a sizeable loss of revenue otherwise I suspect any change will not be a change for the better.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well forgot to say earlier I too noted a sizable drop in FC loadings yesturday even allowing for it being a Monday!

 

[Greenback]

No point. Some of EC's management will almost certainly already be aware of it but they will realise, and so should we, that we are just a very tiny and specialised minority and not worth worrying about.
As others have said, the only way this will change is if it shows up in a sizeable loss of revenue otherwise I suspect any change will not be a change for the better.

We are a minority but EC may have had similar feedabck from a lot more people. Mor worrying for EC is the fact that the vast majority of dissatsfied customers will not provide feedback, they will just stop using it, and tell on average 20 people about their experience.

 

[Blindtraveler]

coleeg of mine is wants to start a
facebook page to allow people to share there views! Thoughts?

 

[Greenback]

coleeg of mine is wants to start a
facebook page to allow people to share there views! Thoughts?

I'm not personalyl in favour of such things!

 

[Blindtraveler]

agreed personally

 

[davidgiles]

Elaine Holt has replied as follows:

Dear Mr Giles

Thank you for your email of the 27th July 2011, regarding our First Class complimentary food offering. I appreciate this was written somewhat tongue in cheek, although you raise some very valid points which we need to address immediately.

After I received your email I asked my teams to investigate the issues you raised and interview the staff delivering the service. I would like to address the points raised in the order written for ease of reading.

The £25 First Class single journey certainly was good value for money for our customers. At this time we do not plan to run the same promotion, however if you are registered on our website you will receive notification of most of our up and coming offers.

Indeed, every time you board one of our trains you should be greeted by a member of our crew, the remainder of the crew will be preparing for departure to enable beverage runs to take place following departure. There is a lot of preparation involved, but a crew member should always be on hand to greet our customers. This is so important and our customers should always be welcomed on board. There was no excuse on either of the journeys you took with us. We do currently have some issues with our newspaper suppliers at Inverness, at present the newspapers are delivered at Edinburgh where they are taken aboard. At this time newspapers should have been distributed to our customers. We are currently sourcing a new supplier in Inverness and once organised, newspapers will be available on departure from there.

I was sorry to read you felt the table for two was not as comfortable as a table for four, although the dimensions per person are the same for both styles. In fact we do receive compliments on the spaciousness of our seating and train carriages.

I must apologise for the ride quality on the 07:55, which was poor between Edinburgh and York. Our trains undergo a safety inspection each night before they enter service and they are not allowed to enter service if they have any suspension related defects. If a problem occurs during service then the train runs at a reduced speed until it is rectified. Sometimes, worn track components can cause poor ride quality. This can be to the extent that it is very noticeable, but not in fact dangerous.

Keeping the track, signalling and railway infrastructure in a well maintained condition is the responsibility of Network Rail. If poor ride quality is experienced, Network Rail ask drivers and/ or train crew to pass on the information about where it has occurred so they can make arrangements to have it inspected and corrected if necessary. Network Rail also conduct regular scheduled inspections to ascertain track condition to ensure that it is safe for use. Our Head of Fleet will monitor the situation and has asked our staff to report any further instances to the maintenance depots where it can be investigated once the train returns.

So much work has gone into delivering such a massive change; from the refurbishment of our catering facilities, preparing different menu options, preparing new operating standards for our staff and as detailed as to how our tables should be presented. Every aspect of our service has been extensively reviewed, to ensure we get it as right as possible. Tablecloths are not part of the table set-up, however we provide East Coast table slip mats. These should provide adequate stability to stop mugs/crockery from moving when the train is in motion.

The introduction of our First Class Quiet Coach followed extensive customer research and has so far been well received. I was alarmed to read of the manner in which our crew boarded at Newcastle. Whether they had been in the Quiet Coach or not, this behaviour is completely unacceptable. This has been addressed with the crew in question.

Unfortunately the 07:55 Inverness to King’s Cross did not have a chef on board, this was very short notice sickness and we were unable to arrange a replacement chef before departure. This impacted our staff greeting customers on board (certainly not an excuse), instead the crew went immediately on board to organise what breakfast could still be served without a chef. Please be assured that all our crew are trained to provide basic breakfast options, just not the full menu range. With the benefit of hindsight the Crew Leader should have still made a greeter available. As the crew board the train 15 minutes prior to departure, they were unable to advise customers that a chef was not on board.

The Crew Manager responsible for the crew in question travelled back to Inverness the same day with some of your fellow travellers from your morning service. Although they too were disappointed, they were very appreciative of the crew’s efforts to offer a catering service.

The departure boards should be updated if we are unable to provide a full catering facility. As we were able to offer catering provision, albeit limited the departure boards were not updated. I do offer my apologies that the bacon/ sausage sandwiches were served on untoasted bread and were not piping hot. Due to the chef not being on board, the crew did have a more limited variety of kitchen equipment to work with, which did cause delays to the breakfast service.

You should have been offered both orange juice and apple and blackcurrant juice on the ‘Breakfast’ and ‘Mid Morning’ menu. The Crew Manager has addressed the non-delivery with our supplier. I can confirm we do not offer pineapple or apple juice on our weekday menus. The coffee served is ground and sealed for freshness prior to delivery. It is then freshly filtered and served on board.

When choosing what alcoholic drinks would be available, we looked at previous sales to determine the most popular customer choice, I’m sorry you were disappointed with our on board wine selection.

Whilst I fully appreciate your comments regarding the power sockets not being available to the aisle seats on a table for four, due to cabling constraints this enhancement would only be considered when we are overhauling the interior of our First Class carriages. This is a good point and one which definitely will be considered when the fleet is next refurbished.

I was quite surprised you could not find a menu on the table, every service I have travelled on has a menu (with our new branding on) on each table. Having checked this after I received your email, the train in question did have menus available on each table.

Although I understand the journey between King’s Cross and Aberdeen does transgress into what would be considered to be evening meal time, it was decided that the ‘All day’ menu offer, both hot and cold options, were sufficient for our customers. With each commercial decision, we must ensure the offer we provide is viable to us as a business. Of course we need to balance this decision with the needs of our customers. The sandwich option should have been a full sandwich garnished with crisps and salad, followed by cake or fruit if desired. This has been brought to the attention of the Crew Managers and is being addressed with all on-board crews. Your comment regarding the hot variety and portions has been noted and will be considered when we next review the menus.

We have four menu rotations a month (each Wednesday), so we can ensure variety for our regular travellers. The cakes you describe are from two different rotations and would not be available at the same time. This is the same for the Greek yoghurt on the ‘Breakfast’ menu.

I take your comment regarding the serving ‘Afternoon Tea’ on our 14:00 King’s Cross departure and this is being considered as part of an overall review, currently taking place, of the offer we provide on each service.

In conclusion, I can only say that I am sorry for the number of issues you experienced on board and cannot argue with the points you raised. There are reasons why these issues occurred, although I fully appreciate that these are of no concern to you, in fact you wanted the complimentary service advertised. The changes to the First Class offer were the biggest we’ve ever made and inevitably we have experienced some inconsistency with the food availability as you’ve described in your letter. We recognise that an integral part of the First Class offer is delivering a high standard of personal service, every time. As such, we have invested in a significant customer service training programme that our entire customer facing on-board team has now attended.

Your feedback is important and has been passed on to the managers of the crew involved. Thank you once again for writing to me and allowing me to personally respond. I hope you will continue to be a valued First Class customer of East Coast. We can do better than this (and do on a regular basis) and I hope we can prove that to you one day.

 

[jon0844]

As I've said before, she won't always tell you what you want to hear - but she will take the time to give more detail than the usual brush offs you get with most businesses.