Could a Red Star Parcels style operation make a return under GBR?

[12C]

Reading the thread about Amazon running a rail service got me thinking, would this be better the other way round (i.e. the rail operator running it’s own courier service), and could it be viable under GBR for a Red Star Parcels type operation to be a success again?

Obviously this would need to be very different to its previous form, and fit for the modern world. Maybe even run in conjunction with some of the major couriers using staffed rail stations as delivery or collection hubs.

I could definitely see a demand being there for a parcel collection service. The amount of mail order parcels being sent has increased dramatically in recent years, via the huge demand for Amazon Prime and other online services, and the number of parcels being sent to households now must be significantly higher than when Red Star ended.

As a result there is a huge pressure on delivery drivers to maintain schedules and parcel delivery companies are clearly struggling to keep up with demand. There is also the issue of delivering to people who are out at work, and many stations already have parcel collection lockers which seem very popular.

An improvement on this could be going back to a having staffed collection centre at stations, where larger parcels and those needing signing for could be handled and people could easily pick up deliveries on their way home from work, or visit the station especially to collect.

Many staffed stations have much unused space, often from previous parcel operations. Also this could be a way to ensure station staff are retained as the move to online ticketing progresses on. The decline of Red Star (and the beginning of the end for mail services in general) happened at the time of privatisation when the railway became too disjointed for a national operation to work. However with GBR on the horizon could this be possible again?

The issue of course would be conveying parcels on trains, as most passenger trains now simply don’t have the room. However the concept of using bespoke ex passenger stock has been demonstrated by Varamis Rail and others, and although this hasn’t been easy to make a success, if it were to be ran by the national operator on a larger scale, maybe even with a fleet of their own road vehicles to work in conjunction with it could be very different.

Could this possibly be another revenue stream GBR could look into to supplement passenger fare income?

 

[Buzby]

I was a prolific user of the service back in the day. A wall map of the Red Star stations and a copy of the BR timetable was all I needed. True, my most popular route was Euston to Glasgow Central and I loved the reliability, but there were downsides. The greatest weakness was when mid journey changes were required (say at Birmingham New Street). Often the transfer would be missed and then the routing became more luck than certainty. Also, the ‘last mile’ deliveries over the last 10 years has been greatly improved. I would baulk and having to make my way into the centre of town to collect a heavy parcel, and still have to get it back to my home or office.

I think GBR would be wise not to resurrect it. It will be useful to some, but don’t forget back in the day this was a premium priced offering. Even the firm that took over the service as it was being ‘unwound’ from the rail network couldn’t make a financial success of it it needed volume customers, and they didn’t find any.

 

[12C]

I think GBR would be wise not to resurrect it. It will be useful to some, but don’t forget back in the day this was a premium priced offering. Even the firm that took over the service as it was being ‘unwound’ from the rail network couldn’t make a financial success of it it needed volume customers, and they didn’t find any.

Fair point, although I would argue that the volume and demand of parcels now is phenomenally different to the late 1990s, thanks to Amazon etc, it’s a completely different market now.

 

[Mike Machin]

I wouldn’t imagine it would be viable. Companies like DPD offer real time tracking via their app, showing exactly where the delivery vehicle is, the name and a picture of the driver, how many stops he is away and an estimate of delivery time.

With such convenience, there’s absolutely no way I‘m going to get into my car, drive into a busy town to a station, pay to park, collect the parcel and then drive all the way back home again.

Red Star Parcels was a product of its time, but time has moved on.

 

[12C]

I wouldn’t imagine it would be viable. Companies like DPD offer real time tracking via their app, showing exactly where the delivery vehicle is, the name and a picture of the driver, how many stops he is away and an estimate of delivery time.

With such convenience, there’s absolutely no way I‘m going to get into my car, drive into a busy town to a station, pay to park, collect the parcel and then drive all the way back home again.

Red Star Parcels was a product of its time, but time has moved on.

There’s no reason a rail based service couldn’t provide real time updates, in fact it would be expected nowadays.

I often miss parcels due to being out, and the amount of times I find something soaking wet on the doorstep, chucked over the fence, or in my bin I find very annoying, especially if it’s a valuable item. But as drivers are on such a tight schedule it’s rare they redeliver or try a neighbour.

I’d happily go to my nearest station knowing it was secure and I could collect when I wanted. Obviously everyone’s situation is different, but I’m often in town anyway at work so would be convenient, or passing through the station anyway.

Also just to clarify, I’m not talking about a return to Red Star in its previous form, with Mrs Goggins turning up at her local station to send a parcel wrapped in twine. I’m suggesting a modern reinvention of it, supporting the logistics of the online delivery market.

 

[JamesT]

There’s no reason a rail based service couldn’t provide real time updates, in fact it would be expected nowadays.

I often miss parcels due to being out, and the amount of times I find something soaking wet on the doorstep, chucked over the fence, or in my bin I find very annoying, especially if it’s a valuable item. But as drivers are on such a tight schedule it’s rare they redeliver or try a neighbour.

I’d happily go to my nearest station knowing it was secure and I could collect when I wanted. Obviously everyone’s situation is different, but I’m often in town anyway at work so would be convenient, or passing through the station anyway.

Also just to clarify, I’m not talking about a return to Red Star in its previous form, with Mrs Goggins turning up at her local station to send a parcel wrapped in twine. I’m suggesting a modern reinvention of it, supporting the logistics of the online delivery market.

Most of the delivery companies have options for redirecting to a local shop or a locker if you’re not going to be in. Those are likely to be far more convenient than a delivery to a railway station. My local station is 5 miles away and not on my way to anything, so I only go there when making a trip.

The other issue is going to be what rolling stock is going to carry these parcels? Passenger trains no longer have guards vans, and I don’t imagine many have the spare seats to be able to lose some for parcels storage.

 

[12C]

Most of the delivery companies have options for redirecting to a local shop or a locker if you’re not going to be in. Those are likely to be far more convenient than a delivery to a railway station. My local station is 5 miles away and not on my way to anything, so I only go there when making a trip.

The other issue is going to be what rolling stock is going to carry these parcels? Passenger trains no longer have guards vans, and I don’t imagine many have the spare seats to be able to lose some for parcels storage.

Agreed but lockers can only handle smaller parcels and are no good for anything that needs a signature or ID checks. Local shops are an option but the ones near me a clearly struggling with the volume of parcels they receive (which will only get worse in future no doubt). I know station pickup wouldn’t work for anyone but I can see it being popular at major hubs with several thousand people passing through each day.

I agree I don’t think modern passenger stock is an option, but there have been trials using redundant passenger units overnight with stripped out interiors. I know these have largely been small ish start ups who have struggled to make it a success but this may be different if ran directly by GBR.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Delivery lockers have got this covered for those who are likely to be ‘out’. Why order your new electronics item to your terraced house when it’s going to sit on the doorstep in the pouring rain for a few hours and every Tom, Dick and Harry walking past. Good chance that if you’re out you can swing by your local handy locker on your way home, certain from texts or emails that your parcel is waiting there. Why would an ID check or signature be needed if you’re the only one with the Aztec code to open the locker?

On a separate note, didn’t Network Rail try something called Doddle at a few stations, which never took off.

 

[12C]

On a separate note, didn’t Network Rail try something called Doddle at a few stations, which never took off.

They did, but as I understand this was using existing couriers, with the station simply as a collection point.

I’m meaning the GBR actually being the courier, or at least in working in partnership with existing couriers to convey parcels. The option to collect at a station wouldn’t be for everyone, and would just be an added benefit, but I can imagine may be popular in major towns and cities with high passenger volume.

At the end of the day conventional rail freight flows are in major decline, and some ‘thinking outside the box’ (no pun intended) is going to be needed for future flows. Online delivery traffic is one sector which has hugely grown in the last 10 years or so and the rail network potentially has huge capacity, especially overnight, to deliver parcels quickly to urban centres. I know many will disagree but I think this possibility could have the potential for success in some form under a joined up national network.

 

[Snow1964]

Delivery lockers have got this covered for those who are likely to be ‘out’. Why order your new electronics item to your terraced house when it’s going to sit on the doorstep in the pouring rain for a few hours and every Tom, Dick and Harry walking past. Good chance that if you’re out you can swing by your local handy locker on your way home, certain from texts or emails that your parcel is waiting there. Why would an ID check or signature be needed if you’re the only one with the Aztec code to open the locker?

You obviously live in an area where lockers are commonplace, there are many parts of the country where nearest locker is 2 or more miles away. And getting to some of those are along unlit roads.

Not sure suggesting a 4+ mile roundtrip to nearest locker should be called handy

 

[Mcv378]

Maybe one option might be that the parcel is sent via the rail network then collected by a delivery company to the customers address or chosen pick up point.

 

[Tester]

Maybe one option might be that the parcel is sent via the rail network then collected by a delivery company to the customers address or chosen pick up point.

Something like this happens in Switzerland.

I have often seen couriers loading or unloading parcels on passenger trains, without railway staff intervention, in what is clearly an organised manner.

 

[Mike Machin]

There’s no reason a rail based service couldn’t provide real time updates, in fact it would be expected nowadays.

I often miss parcels due to being out, and the amount of times I find something soaking wet on the doorstep, chucked over the fence, or in my bin I find very annoying, especially if it’s a valuable item. But as drivers are on such a tight schedule it’s rare they redeliver or try a neighbour.

I’d happily go to my nearest station knowing it was secure and I could collect when I wanted. Obviously everyone’s situation is different, but I’m often in town anyway at work so would be convenient, or passing through the station anyway.

Also just to clarify, I’m not talking about a return to Red Star in its previous form, with Mrs Goggins turning up at her local station to send a parcel wrapped in twine. I’m suggesting a modern reinvention of it, supporting the logistics of the online delivery market.

You’re probably right and if you’re reasonably close to a staffed station it probably could work. Where I live, I don’t think any of my friends or neighbours would use such a service as it would be a half hour drive to the nearest station, or a very long walk and then two buses so home delivery will always be a better option.

 

[JamesT]

Maybe one option might be that the parcel is sent via the rail network then collected by a delivery company to the customers address or chosen pick up point.

If you’re doing that, is going via the station actually an advantage? Oxford may be somewhat of an exception, but getting between the station and most of the housing is a complete pain. Whereas the couriers can come off the strategic road network and not go through the city centre if they don’t have to.
I think the main thing is what problem does this solve better than the current very efficient setup of the couriers? The only one that comes to mind is bulk flows between distribution centres, i.e. the thing that Royal Mail have effectively given up on recently.

 

[Buzby]

Also just to clarify, I’m not talking about a return to Red Star in its previous form, with Mrs Goggins turning up at her local station to send a parcel wrapped in twine. I’m suggesting a modern reinvention of it, supporting the logistics of the online delivery market.

Like BR’s ‘Furniture Delivery’ and ‘Holiday Luggage’ service of old? Red Star was the pared down version of that. They offered door to door collection and delivery, the van went to the station/depot and trans-shipped it. I never experienced it, but men in brown overalls turned up and took your stuff away!

 

[Flying Snail]

When Red Star operated trains had spaces for parcels, stations had offices and staff to handle them. None of that is the case now.

It would cost way too much to start again from scratch to build up a useable parcel network and this would be in a market crowded with cutthroat competition. It just won't happen.

 

[Helvellyn]

I’m meaning the GBR actually being the courier, or at least in working in partnership with existing couriers to convey parcels. The option to collect at a station wouldn’t be for everyone, and would just be an added benefit, but I can imagine may be popular in major towns and cities with high passenger volume.

At the end of the day conventional rail freight flows are in major decline, and some ‘thinking outside the box’ (no pun intended) is going to be needed for future flows. Online delivery traffic is one sector which has hugely grown in the last 10 years or so and the rail network potentially has huge capacity, especially overnight, to deliver parcels quickly to urban centres. I know many will disagree but I think this possibility could have the potential for success in some form under a joined up national network.

Firstly, GBR won't be a freight operator only a passenger operator, so why would it attempt to get into the logistics game?

Secondly, bringing together Network Rail and 14 TOCs is going to be a massive task. Why would you complicate that by trying to create a whole new business model, with trains that aren't kitted out for this, and a massive investment in infrastructure to support it all?

Thirdly, mass overnight traffic flows disappeared on rail years ago. The remaining ones - Sleepers and Freight - are less time sensitive than parcels. Engineering work is the overnight priority these days - or at least the flexibility to schedule it across the network.

 

[12C]

Firstly, GBR won't be a freight operator only a passenger operator, so why would it attempt to get into the logistics game?

Although not a freight operator, GBR has stated it is committed to promoting and facilitating the growth of freight on the network. If parcels logistics could be profitable, why not? The revenue for this could help subsidise passenger services, as happened in the past.

Secondly, bringing together Network Rail and 14 TOCs is going to be a massive task. Why would you complicate that by trying to create a whole new business model, with trains that aren't kitted out for this, and a massive investment in infrastructure to support it all?

There wouldn’t necessarily need to be ‘massive investment’. Potentially all that would be needed would be to remove seating from suburban DMU/EMU stock to take roll cages, as Varamis have done, and the infrastructure to support a parcels operation is still in place at many large stations (for example Preston still has dedicated parcels platforms largely untouched since RES stoped using them). I would see the creation of GBR and a more joined up network to bring some opportunities for growth or diversification rather than barriers. Parcels by rail are nothing new, and the amount of retail parcels being sent now must be far greater than ever before.

Thirdly, mass overnight traffic flows disappeared on rail years ago. The remaining ones - Sleepers and Freight - are less time sensitive than parcels. Engineering work is the overnight priority these days - or at least the flexibility to schedule it across the network.

On weeknights major routes are still largely a 24 hour operation, it’s rare to see possessions closing the main lines overnight unless for planned major works. Weekends of course are a different story.

 

[mrmartin]

Not going to happen. It's not convenient for passengers collecting (unless they are commuting through the station - but that then makes your target market only those who commute most days via rail so 95%+ of the market gone).

It's not good for trunk delivery either as city centre stations are poorly located for van fleets.

Finally, the labour costs in rail are extremely high compared to the parcel industry. Probably at least double and probably more like quadruple once all the pensions and benefits are in play.

To put this in context, collect+ offers something like 30p a parcel to corner shops for collection. Lets say labour costs at a minimum in rail are £25/hr including benefits. Each employee would have to be handling 100 parcels an hour to break even on just labour costs. Just not going to happen.

 

[Farnborough]

Ignoring local delivery routes, as that has been well covered above, the main reason why this isn't going to happen is that each of the big courier firms already have their network of depots, and few of those are near to rail facilities - so even if the spine shifted to rail, there would need to be massive investment in facilities at (selected) railway stations.

Dedicated trains are therefore a no-no... and given minimum dwell times and lack of goods space on trains, they're not an option either.

The horse has bolted.

 

[Carlisle]

When Red Star operated trains had spaces for parcels, stations had offices and staff to handle them. None of that is the case now.

Not entirely correct as I remember when 158s were first introduced despite lacking guards vans every other train on certain routes was designated either a parcel or cycle train so guards had ample time to deal with whatever their designated train was carrying.

 

[Trackman]

Not entirely correct as I remember when 158s were first introduced despite lacking guards vans every other train on certain routes was designated either a parcel or cycle train so guards had ample time to deal with whatever their designated train was carrying.

Think they had shutters for the parcel compartment.

 

[edwin_m]

Not entirely correct as I remember when 158s were first introduced despite lacking guards vans every other train on certain routes was designated either a parcel or cycle train so guards had ample time to deal with whatever their designated train was carrying.

Think they had shutters for the parcel compartment.

Correct. It one of the large luggage racks, top half only I think, but definitely separate from the cycle space.

The area between the cab and the first set of doors on a 150 was lockable and intended for either cycles or parcels, but also had some tip-up seats. There was a similar space on a 156, but that had the disadvantage that locking it out would also prevent passenger use of the door that end. I think there was a break-glass emergency handle on the separating door. I don't recall any service being designated for either cycles or parcels and I don't recall ever seeing any of these locked.

 

[mike57]

I was a user of the service back in the day, but remember, mid to late 70s there were not the other delivery options. I cant see many people using it nowadays, you can generally get next day delivery on urgent stuff. If something is really urgent, as in a production line stopped then often a real live human will hand carry the item, either by car or train.

As the apprentice I frequently got the job of taking or collecting parcels from Kings Cross, often to or from Aberdeen. It generally worked well, mostly electronic component boards, maybe a shoe box size parcel, so tube to and from South Wimbledon. On one less happy occasion I was confronted with a much larger parcel, as big as a suitcase, and quite heavy. The guy in the Red Star office felt sorry for the 17yo me and found some string, to make a carrying handle. I then lugged it back on the tube, fortunately in the middle of the day, and no changes. When I got back to South Wimbledon I had a short walk, and delivered it to stores as instructed. The storeman looked at it and said "I was only expecting a couple of circuit boards, what have they sent" Turns out they had sent the whole 19inch rack, having meticulously unwired it instead of just unlugging the faulty card.

 

[YorksLad12]

Correct. It one of the large luggage racks, top half only I think, but definitely separate from the cycle space.

The area between the cab and the first set of doors on a 150 was lockable and intended for either cycles or parcels, but also had some tip-up seats. There was a similar space on a 156, but that had the disadvantage that locking it out would also prevent passenger use of the door that end. I think there was a break-glass emergency handle on the separating door. I don't recall any service being designated for either cycles or parcels and I don't recall ever seeing any of these locked.

Same with the class 141s; foldable seats and a sliding, lockable door at both ends.

Red Star is probably a non-starter, mainly because city centre parcels depots are a thing of the past (mostly). But the thought occurs... we have lockers on railway stations; some Amazon, some InPost, some others. Vans drive to the stations to drop their parcels off. Why not send them by rail? You'd need a postie or sorts travelling with them who jumps off the train, delivers to the lockers and get back on board for the next stop (cheaper than one per station, unless it's a staffed station (oh, for the days of Porters)). You'd probably limit it to one or two journeys per day. And, initially, limit it to rural routes (Settle-Carlisle rather than Leeds-Huddersfield).

We have the Post Bus, why not the Post Train? Is that the Swiss model suggested above?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Same with the class 141s; foldable seats and a sliding, lockable door at both ends.

Red Star is probably a non-starter, mainly because city centre parcels depots are a thing of the past (mostly). But the thought occurs... we have lockers on railway stations; some Amazon, some InPost, some others. Vans drive to the stations to drop their parcels off. Why not send them by rail? You'd need a postie or sorts travelling with them who jumps off the train, delivers to the lockers and get back on board for the next stop (cheaper than one per station, unless it's a staffed station (oh, for the days of Porters)). You'd probably limit it to one or two journeys per day. And, initially, limit it to rural routes (Settle-Carlisle rather than Leeds-Huddersfield).

We have the Post Bus, why not the Post Train? Is that the Swiss model suggested above?

But the van will have a 'round' all over the area, with the lockers just one stop among many to homes and businesses that want their parcel delivered to the doorstep, as well as other consolidation points such as village post offices.

It will also take several minutes for the 'postie' to pop various sized parcels into the bank of lockers and get back on the train. Meanwhile, where are their parcels for other statins going to be?

There is no saving or efficiency here at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have the Post Bus, why not the Post Train? Is that the Swiss model suggested above?

Postbus has all gone in the UK now I think, or if any are left there aren't many. The economics were broken by the loss of the second collection (generally they were the van that went round collecting from post boxes with some seats in the back) - as it was you'd get two round trips, a morning and an afternoon, that were actually useful for going into town for the day. Morning only means the utility is too limited. Switzerland doesn't really have them now either - the post office operates most of the regional bus services, but they are operated separately as bus and coach services, not as actual dual purpose post buses.

 

[YorksLad12]

But the van will have a 'round' all over the area, with the lockers just one stop among many to homes and businesses that want their parcel delivered to the doorstep, as well as other consolidation points such as village post offices.

It will also take several minutes for the 'postie' to pop various sized parcels into the bank of lockers and get back on the train. Meanwhile, where are their parcels for other statins going to be?

There is no saving or efficiency here at all.

I didn't think there would be, but there is the 'socially necessary' aspect we get back with returning franchises to public control. Might be a step too far on the subsidy front though. A man can dream.

Postbus has all gone in the UK now I think, or if any are left there aren't many. The economics were broken by the loss of the second collection (generally they were the van that went round collecting from post boxes with some seats in the back) - as it was you'd get two round trips, a morning and an afternoon, that were actually useful for going into town for the day. Morning only means the utility is too limited. Switzerland doesn't really have them now either - the post office operates most of the regional bus services, but they are operated separately as bus and coach services, not as actual dual purpose post buses.

Which also puts the tin hat on it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't think there would be, but there is the 'socially necessary' aspect we get back with returning franchises to public control. Might be a step too far on the subsidy front though. A man can dream.

If the commercial sector is providing adequate* parcel delivery services, then there's no "socially necessary" brief to fulfil - it's similar to the classic supermarket analogy - the private sector provides sufficient food distribution options in most of the country so there's no need for an additional nationalised option.

* For some values of "adequate"

 

[pokemonsuper9]

But the thought occurs... we have lockers on railway stations; some Amazon, some InPost, some others. Vans drive to the stations to drop their parcels off. Why not send them by rail? You'd need a postie or sorts travelling with them who jumps off the train, delivers to the lockers and get back on board for the next stop

That would take forever, there are so many with stairs or long ramps separating the tracks from the lockers.