Closing doors on passengers while boarding

[jon0844]

Given FCC must remember Huntingdon, even if the 365 doors were modified as a result, this morning the driver of a service (I won't mention) happily closed the doors while a mum was boarding with a buggy. Not a great start for a day out in London, and something that could quite rightly make them feel unsafe taking a train in the future for the safety of their children.

Now let me make it clear; I boarded first, followed by two mums (each with buggies) and some kids on foot. The first mum came on with her buggy, followed by the children, and the second mother pushed her buggy on. As she did so, the hustle alarm started and she had to - in a panic - push forward only to have the door virtually close on her back. She did make it, but it wasn't a pleasant experience.

She hadn't tried to board when the doors were closing, or legged it from the station building late as some people do.

A few seconds later, the doors were unlocked again - possibly on account of someone else being trapped further along the train (a really nice day and quite a lot busier than normal for this particular service) and then locked again 5-10 seconds later.

This happened at Hatfield, and the train was 2 minutes late. It must have kept the doors open for no longer than 15 seconds in the first instance, which is quicker than it would normally have been when there weren't that many people boarding!

I sent a private Tweet to @firstCC and they came back to say that trains have a 30 second dwell time and they'll investigate. Irrespective of the dwell time, this station has CCTV and the train would have been perfectly lined up.

How do I know this? Because I'm the saddo that stands in the exact right position to line up with the door open button on the platform! Thus, if it's right in front of me - the train is in the right place. The driver can't have been looking or was simply thinking that he had to make up time - but trapping people in the doors, especially a 365, is surely going to make things take a lot longer?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Given FCC must remember Huntingdon, even if the 365 doors were modified as a result, this morning the driver of a service (I won't mention) happily closed the doors while a mum was boarding with a buggy. Not a great start for a day out in London, and something that could quite rightly make them feel unsafe taking a train in the future for the safety of their children.

Now let me make it clear; I boarded first, followed by two mums (each with buggies) and some kids on foot. The first mum came on with her buggy, followed by the children, and the second mother pushed her buggy on. As she did so, the hustle alarm started and she had to - in a panic - push forward only to have the door virtually close on her back. She did make it, but it wasn't a pleasant experience.

She hadn't tried to board when the doors were closing, or legged it from the station building late as some people do.

A few seconds later, the doors were unlocked again - possibly on account of someone else being trapped further along the train (a really nice day and quite a lot busier than normal for this particular service) and then locked again 5-10 seconds later.

This happened at Hatfield, and the train was 2 minutes late. It must have kept the doors open for no longer than 15 seconds in the first instance, which is quicker than it would normally have been when there weren't that many people boarding!

I sent a private Tweet to @firstCC and they came back to say that trains have a 30 second dwell time and they'll investigate. Irrespective of the dwell time, this station has CCTV and the train would have been perfectly lined up.

How do I know this? Because I'm the saddo that stands in the exact right position to line up with the door open button on the platform! Thus, if it's right in front of me - the train is in the right place. The driver can't have been looking or was simply thinking that he had to make up time - but trapping people in the doors, especially a 365, is surely going to make things take a lot longer?

I take it is doo (why people support I will never know) and if it wasn't the guard needs a rollocking as door operation is basic guard respoinsibility

 

[BestWestern]

Might have not been looking, or might have trying to 'hurry things up' and hoping that people would panic and get shifting. It's not an ideal way to do things, although it happens on the Underground at pretty much every stop during busy times. Not good practise though. ^^I'm glad somebody else also thought of the obvious DOO issue, although I suppose if it was deliberate you could argue that the same could have happened with a Guard of a similar mentality.

 

[pendolino]

If it was DOO, with monitors on the platform, and a sunny day, it can be pretty difficult sometimes to see what's going on in the monitors. But having said that, if the driver wasn't entirely sure that the doors were clear, then he should really have waited or even looked back/stepped out of the cab to make sure before closing up. If that results in lost time, then so be it.

 

[philjo]

I take it is doo (why people support I will never know) and if it wasn't the guard needs a rollocking as door operation is basic guard respoinsibility

All FCC trains on the GN route are DOO. I think they have been since the 312s were replaced by the 317s in mid-late 1980s.

 

[Greenback]

Sorry if I've got this wrong, but reading the original post it appears as though the door alarm sounded as the mum was pushing the buggy on, but before she had got on herself?

If that was the case, then it would seem likely that it was an attempt to speed up the boarding process. It would be interesting to know what instructions/guidance is given when trains are late.

It also reads as if the door closed almost immediately after the alarm sounded?

If that was the case then that doesn't sound right? Should there not be at least a few seconds delay before the door actually shuts?

 

[MCR247]

Greenback, the hustle alarm came on when she was pushing the buggy on, so they rushed and she just managed to get on - doesn't sound like they closed immediately

 

[Greenback]

I wasn't sure. I have to say that 15 seconds doesn't sound long enough for the doors to be open - it takes longer than that to get people on and off at Gowerton!

 

[Mainliner]

....it happens on the Underground at pretty much every stop during busy times..

I've also had a few recent journeys on the Tyne & Wear Metro with trigger-happy drivers closing doors very sharply, sometimes DURING the "doors closing" message (which is then cut short).

Don't know if there's any specified dwell time, but on occasion it's mere seconds, usually late at night, when few passengers are getting on and off, but it also happened yesterday morning, at Newcastle Central Station, when a considerable number of passengers with children, suitcases, etc were getting on and off.

 

[jon0844]

Sorry if I've got this wrong, but reading the original post it appears as though the door alarm sounded as the mum was pushing the buggy on, but before she had got on herself?

If that was the case, then it would seem likely that it was an attempt to speed up the boarding process. It would be interesting to know what instructions/guidance is given when trains are late.

It also reads as if the door closed almost immediately after the alarm sounded?

If that was the case then that doesn't sound right? Should there not be at least a few seconds delay before the door actually shuts?

She was boarding with the buggy first and her behind. The hustle alarm doesn't give you a great deal of time as those doors (plug-type) close fast. If you've stepped on but there are people in front who are messing around trying to sit down, put bags on luggage racks, then you're effectively stuck and will either need to push forward hard, jump backwards to get OFF the train or let the doors hit you. Although they will stop and partially re-open, they can hurt you in the process.

However, she did make it - but only by having to force everyone else forward in a panic. The fact the doors were unlocked shortly after suggests they didn't all properly close, so someone else was likely trapped further along (or possibly held the doors open - I don't honestly know).

Now if you can set the hustle alarm without actually closing the door then that's perhaps a good idea - but I am not sure that's the case. You seem to get 2 or 3 seconds and they close.

BTW, I didn't make it clear in my opening paragraph; the train was a FCC Class 365 (4-car FWIW) and a driver can easily look out of the window if necessary as there's no significant curve on the platform.

FCC has told me that there's a 30 second dwell time, which can't be true as very few trains wait that long unless they arrive early. Some morning services are down to arrive a minute before the public timetable time for arrival, so will wait around a minute or more - but this wasn't one of them. In fact, can you imagine a train waiting 30 seconds at every stop?!

 

[Greenback]

I don't know how the doors work on ATW, but I think it's all automatic. I assume it's the same on all trains. Obviously the alarm element is essential, it's just probably not a good idea to initiate the door close operation when people are still getting on, especially if it's only 2-3 seconds before closure.

 

[rmt-driver]

Procedure is if passengers are taking too long, and/or won't move away from the door areas make a PA stating "mind the doors" then just close up, hopefully that will shift them...

Its annoying when loads of passengers try to cram into one set of doors, when the rest are going unused... sometimes the only way to teach them a lesson to use ALL THE DOORS and move along the platform when waiting, is to close and leave some behind !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

She was boarding with the buggy first and her behind. The hustle alarm doesn't give you a great deal of time as those doors (plug-type) close fast. If you've stepped on but there are people in front who are messing around trying to sit down, put bags on luggage racks, then you're effectively stuck and will either need to push forward hard, jump backwards to get OFF the train or let the doors hit you. Although they will stop and partially re-open, they can hurt you in the process.

However, she did make it - but only by having to force everyone else forward in a panic. The fact the doors were unlocked shortly after suggests they didn't all properly close, so someone else was likely trapped further along (or possibly held the doors open - I don't honestly know).

Now if you can set the hustle alarm without actually closing the door then that's perhaps a good idea - but I am not sure that's the case. You seem to get 2 or 3 seconds and they close.

With non-guard trains its easy to press the door close button on the OPPOSITE side to the side that is open, cue ding ding ding, that hurries them up.

 

[Greenback]

Procedure is if passengers are taking too long, and/or won't move away from the door areas make a PA stating "mind the doors" then just close up, hopefully that will shift them...

I don't think it is feasible to say that 15 seconds is too long when there are seperate groups of people with children and buggies!

I've also noticed that people with buggies do tend to stick together - where there is one there's often another one!

 

[rmt-driver]

I don't think it is feasible to say that 15 seconds is too long when there are seperate groups of people with children and buggies!

I've also noticed that people with buggies do tend to stick together - where there is one there's often another one!

I know and they even want to get on packed rush hour trains complete with unfolded pushchairs these days.. common sense out the window! :roll:

 

[jon0844]

I don't think it is feasible to say that 15 seconds is too long when there are seperate groups of people with children and buggies!

I've also noticed that people with buggies do tend to stick together - where there is one there's often another one!

They were together! To be honest, Hatfield spreads people out quite well as there are benches all along the platform - and the waiting room near the front end of the train, with the entrance/exit by the rear doors.

Given the doors were open for about 15 seconds, I don't think that was anywhere near enough time. I've been on that train when RPIs have been boarding to do a ticket check and they stand around to let others on, and the driver must see this as the train can wait for 30-45 seconds before closing as soon as the last one gets on.

I know and they even want to get on packed rush hour trains complete with unfolded pushchairs these days.. common sense out the window! :roll:

I have certainly got strong opinions about people boarding busy trains with buggies and cycles, but the train wasn't busy at all. The time getting on wasn't down to struggling to fit, it was merely down to the time to realistically board two buggies, two adults and kids - plus myself and the two or three people who alighted first.

 

[notadriver]

Now if you can set the hustle alarm without actually closing the door then that's perhaps a good idea - but I am not sure that's the case. You seem to get 2 or 3 seconds and they close.

BTW, I didn't make it clear in my opening paragraph; the train was a FCC Class 365 (4-car FWIW) and a driver can easily look out of the window if necessary as there's no significant curve on the platform.

FCC has told me that there's a 30 second dwell time, which can't be true as very few trains wait that long unless they arrive early. Some morning services are down to arrive a minute before the public timetable time for arrival, so will wait around a minute or more - but this wasn't one of them. In fact, can you imagine a train waiting 30 seconds at every stop?!

Just a few thoughts here :

Arrival and departure times at some stations are often to the same minute. I just wonder whether that 30 seconds is from the exact time the doors are released to when the train is ready to move again.

Another point is that I find the CCTV at platforms a bit difficult to see. Yes of course the driver should either stick his head out the window or get off and check if not sure but I don't think the 365s are compatible with 'look back' operation. Someone could correct me if i'm wrong though. Drivers are not normally expected to leave the seat to look out of the window or to get out and look down the platform to safely despatch trains unless there is a problem or the train is compatible with look back operation. CCTV should be used.

I like the idea of sounding the hustle alarm before the doors close. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work that way on British trains. Pressing the 'door close' button sounds the hustle alarm and the doors will close around 6 seconds afterwards. There seems to be no way to stop the doors closing on someone even if the door release button is pressed while the doors are closing On the Paris Metro I think they have a wonderful system. Press a button and release and the hustle alarm sounds. Press the button (and keep depressed) closes the doors. If the button is released during the closing sequence then the doors stop in the position they are in allowing people who would have been stuck to board. Press the button again and keep depressed closes the doors and once interlock is achieved you get a single 'ding'. Then either drive manually or keep the door close button depressed after the 'ding' and ATO will start the train.

 

[jon0844]

Some LUL tube trains must have a system like that, as I've been on trains where the hustle alarm has been very short and other times when it has been quite long. It may be a fault of course, but I've seen tube trains where the doors are closing almost immediately when the alarm goes off.

Last week, I was on a 317/1 where the doors opened while the train was still moving. It wasn't going fast, but the train definitely hadn't come to a total stop (maybe 4-5mph). And, yes, I was holding down the open button early!

 

[Matt Taylor]

I'm not condoning what may or may not have happened in the OP as I was not there, but I suggest some of you should come and take a look at Putney, Clapham Jnc, Wimbledon etc etc during the morning peak. It simply is not possible to wait until everybody has stopped boarding before pressing the 'doors close' button, if you wait until everybody stops trying to board you would never get away. Each situation should be judged on it's merits and there is a time for using the hustle alarm to speed people up, equally there are times when you need to be cautious.

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield isn't quite the same.. there won't be a steady stream of people most of the time, if at all. In the peaks, when it is busy, most people know what train they're wanting and get there on time - perhaps a few latecomers run, but that's it (and then it isn't people with bikes or buggies).

Obviously you can't hold one train all day to fill it up - but the only reason for the rush would have been having lost time around Hitchin. I have checked and the driver clearly made up for it as it arrived at King's Cross a minute early!

 

[Matt Taylor]

I like the idea of sounding the hustle alarm before the doors close. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work that way on British trains.

Isn't that why we have whistles?

 

[Howardh]

Last week I was on a train with my old Mum. Being nearly older than I am, she has a stuggle getting up, to the door and off.

So, at the final station, I got up, went to the door and physically stood there so it couldn't close, so as to allow Mum time to get off.

The guard was standing by her cab seeing everyone off, noticed me still stood there, so came down sharply to see what I was doing. At that point she noticed Mum, so started to help.

My thought was if I wasn't there, and mum hadn't made it to the door on time, they would have closed the doors, gone off and she'd at best finish up at the next station, confused and upset.

Just wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate on small trains (say 6 coaches or less) for the guard to walk down the outside of the train to see everythings OK, walk back and away we go? How much time, if any, would that add to a stop?

 

[Firestarter]

Isn't that why we have whistles?

The whistles are for train dispatch staff to use not for drivers at unmanned stations.

 

[pendolino]

Just wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate on small trains (say 6 coaches or less) for the guard to walk down the outside of the train to see everythings OK, walk back and away we go? How much time, if any, would that add to a stop?

That would add a couple of minutes to every stop I would think, with a 6 car. Never going to happen on metro-type services.

 

[Ticket Man]

Just wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate on small trains (say 6 coaches or less) for the guard to walk down the outside of the train to see everythings OK, walk back and away we go? How much time, if any, would that add to a stop?

At intermediate stations, the time it would take to walk six coaches to make sure everyone is off would add an extra minute or two at each station. If your on a route with a lot of stops, your potentially adding 20 - 25 minutes per journey. The cost would far out weigh the benefit to the network.

 

[MCR247]

Just wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate on small trains (say 6 coaches or less) for the guard to walk down the outside of the train to see everythings OK, walk back and away we go? How much time, if any, would that add to a stop?

Thats just too far.

 

[rmt-driver]

Passengers should be up ready by the doors anyway before the train stops at the platform, to allow for prompt disembarkation.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Passengers should be up ready by the doors anyway before the train stops at the platform, to allow for prompt disembarkation.

Just not to the extent where they are all standing in front and blocking the doors so that passengers are unable to alight, that actually slows things down!

 

[jon0844]

Passengers should be up ready by the doors anyway before the train stops at the platform, to allow for prompt disembarkation.

Yet buses advise people to remain seated until they have stopped!

 

[notadriver]

Yet buses advise people to remain seated until they have stopped!

This is true but buses and trains are different. Trains don't stop as harshly as buses, although tubes can