Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Sleepy]

So less than 4 weeks to go and hearing nothing from DfT or operators ?? Thought "digital" ticketing was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Edvid]

Existing fares in earlier Contactless roll outs not affected earlier, so, for instance, it appears that you can still get a super-off-peak day return from Potters Bar to London from 7 December, but not one from Stevenage to London.

If those particular weekend fares (within pre-Oval CPAY) remain available when Phase 2A goes live I'll be surprised.

So less than 4 weeks to go and hearing nothing from DfT or operators ?? Thought "digital" ticketing was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread.

They don't issue briefs with the go-live date until 2-4 weeks out. The upcoming ECML recast will introduce LNER set-down/pick-up restrictions at Stevenage so (at least part of) Phase 2A won't happen before 14 December.

 

[OneOfThe48]

If they were amounts that were totally implausible, yes. However these amounts very neatly align with the explanations I've given.

It would be great if it were £20 return but I doubt that will be the case.

The fares shown in brfares will be the same as shown in journey planners because they come from the same source. The way Oval fares are transferred to the TfL system means that anomalies are much less likely, but the absolute bible for what the fares wil be is a fare finder powered by TfL open data.

The fares are now visible in journey planners - an Off Peak Day Return between East Grinstead and London will be £19.80 - pretty close to the £20 I suggested.

Looks like the fares in BRFares were not final after all

 

[Kite159]

If those particular weekend fares (within pre-Oval CPAY) remain available when Phase 2A goes live I'll be surprised.


They don't issue briefs with the go-live date until 2-4 weeks out. The upcoming ECML recast will introduce LNER set-down/pick-up restrictions at Stevenage so (at least part of) Phase 2A won't happen before 14 December.

Is Oval Phase 2A going to be changing the fare structure for those stations which already take oyster or contactless which are outside the London zones, which didn't benefit from the existing paper fares being changed to be the same price as contactless (i.e. a single being near enough half the price of a return)?

 

[JonathanH]

Is Oval Phase 2A going to be changing the fare structure for those stations which already take oyster or contactless which are outside the London zones, which didn't benefit from the existing paper fares being changed to be the same price as contactless (i.e. a single being near enough half the price of a return)?

Fares for those stations aren't showing a change at present (other than to Oval destinations) - eg no Ovalised fares between Reading and London for example. Also paper fares from Redhill to non-Oval destinations don't appear to change from 7 December but those from Reigate do.

Maybe a future phase? Maybe just not reflected in today's release? Not easy to know.

 

[Haywain]

For journeys from CPAY Thameslink (North) and Great Northern stations to central London it looks like the new Off Peak Day Return fare (DDR) is based on the outgoing weekday Super Off Peak Day Return, usually midway between the weekend equivalent and existing Off Peak Day Return (CDR) - both of these going as well.

This only appears to affect the stations that are new to contactless, leading to some "interesting" discrepancies, particularly in the south of (ceremonial) Bedfordshire.

 

[JonathanH]

This only appears to affect the stations that are new to contactless, leading to some "interesting" discrepancies, particularly in the south of (ceremonial) Bedfordshire.

The number of discrepancies arising from the phasing of the Oval.changes is verging on ridiculous.

 

[aron2smith]

Hopefully it is that date, it saves me money on trips whenever it rolls out anyway and makes multi-leg multi-modal trips to explore my region much more worthwhile. Crucial in a county lacking east-west rail links.

Single fares fall quite a bit. With disabled railcard, which can't be used on contactless.

Cheshunt to Stansted off peak single
- £9.90 today - £6.70 from December

Anytime single
- £13.05 today - £10.80 from December

The off peak return appears to be priced half way between the 2 old fares, £13.45 vs £9.95 day return or £18.95 period return.
Anytime return is a bit pointless now as it's a day ticket now instead of a period ticket. Especially as the return leg is not affected by the evening peak if going in the direction of London from what I can tell.

 

[Watershed]

GA have, as I expected, made some bizarre and frankly unjustifiable changes to the Stansted Airport <-> London fares.

The Anytime Return (currently £38) is abolished, with the Off-Peak Day Return (CDR, £28) being the only remaining return fare. This means that most airline passengers (likely making period return journeys) will pay quite a bit more.

Those travelling at "off-peak" times in both directions will now pay £42. Those travelling at peak times in one direction pay £44 and those travelling at peak times both ways pay £46, an increase of 21%. The only people who benefit from these changes are those making a one-way journey at peak times, as the Anytime single is reduced from £25 to £23.

These aggressive fare increases (arising from GA's refusal to charge half the existing return fare) lead to split ticketing opportunities galore. Bishops Stortford is the obvious option since all Stansted "Express" trains stop there - saving up to £7.30 for those travelling off-peak both ways. Splitting at Stansted Mountfitchet, Harlow or Sawbridgeworth also offer savings but restricts your choice of trains due to the skip-stop pattern.

Of course GA will be banking on lots of people simply using contactless and not querying the cost. But it's very disreputable in my view.

 

[Edvid]

The Anytime Return (currently £38) is abolished, with the Off-Peak Day Return (CDR, £28) being the only remaining return fare. This means that most airline passengers (likely making period return journeys) will pay quite a bit more.

That has been, or will be replaced by the Oval-aligned, identically-named Off Peak Day Return (DDR) at many other stations up to Phase 2A.

A 50% CPAY markup for Stansted Airport-Liverpool Street journeys - even before you consider Railcards / splits - would be mindboggling.

 

[aron2smith]

I've noticed there is a considerable mark up for any journeys to Stansted Airport comparing fares on this contactless expansion. Seemingly over 50% more than the previous station, Stansted Mountfitchet! For anyone with a little extra time, oddly may be a lot cheaper to change to a bus at Bishop's Stortford (which are quite frequent) than do the through rail fare to get to the airport! So much for a best price guarantee!

Liverpool Street to Bishop's Stortford paper single off peak with railcard - £7.95 - Mountfitchet - £9.15 - the Airport - £13.95!

I wonder if its like Heathrow where higher rail fares are charged so the buses can be subsidised? Makes me wonder if all London Airports charge far higher rail fares compared to neighbouring stations by default now?

 

[Tw99]

I don't follow this thread that often so apologies if this has been mentioned recently: Is there any news on the "Railcards coming to contactless payment cards" bit ? Or is this still at Phase 0 of some multi-year multi-consultant IT feasibility study ?

 

[Sonic1234]

Is there any news on the "Railcards coming to contactless payment cards" bit ? Or is this still at Phase 0 of some multi-year multi-consultant IT feasibility study ?

If that. They'll probably see first how many people will forego a railcard discount for the "convenience" of contactless.

 

[Kite159]

These aggressive fare increases (arising from GA's refusal to charge half the existing return fare) lead to split ticketing opportunities galore. Bishops Stortford is the obvious option since all Stansted "Express" trains stop there - saving up to £7.30 for those travelling off-peak both ways. Splitting at Stansted Mountfitchet, Harlow or Sawbridgeworth also offer savings but restricts your choice of trains due to the skip-stop pattern.

Only 2tph of the Stansted (so-called) Express services call at Bishops Stortford, at least looking at RTT for today.

 

[778]

If that. They'll probably see first how many people will forego a railcard discount for the "convenience" of contactless.

If people choose the convenience of contactless over railcards, will railcards be done away with?

 

[JonathanH]

If people choose the convenience of contactless over railcards, will railcards be done away with?

That would appear unlikely, because railcards are used by passengers making longer journeys with other forms of ticket.

The point about Contactless in the conurbations is whether there comes a time when the railway sees fit to start charging different amounts for Contactless and non-Contactless travel, in the manner seen within London.

At the moment Project Oval comes in Contactless and non-Contactless format with railcards (and other things like first class and child fares) issued on the non-Contactless equivalent tickets.

One thing that seems to be getting very complicated is where an off-peak single in non-Contactless form can and can't be used between 1600 and 1900. The rule of thumb is that one can be used towards London in most cases, but not all.

 

[jon0844]

If people choose the convenience of contactless over railcards, will railcards be done away with?

Hopefully they'll progress on the idea to allow you to apply a railcard to a particular card, then the discount will be applied automatically.

Likewise, they really need to develop a way to charge child fares too, using the same principle.

 

[weeklycommuter]

These aggressive fare increases (arising from GA's refusal to charge half the existing return fare) lead to split ticketing opportunities galore. Bishops Stortford is the obvious option since all Stansted "Express" trains stop there - saving up to £7.30 for those travelling off-peak both ways. Splitting at Stansted Mountfitchet, Harlow or Sawbridgeworth also offer savings but restricts your choice of trains due to the skip-stop pattern.

Only 2tph of the Stansted (so-called) Express services call at Bishops Stortford, at least looking at RTT for today.

All 4tph each way between London Liverpool Street and Stansted Airport call at Tottenham Hale. Of these 2tph call at Tottenham Hale and Bishops Stortford, 1tph call at Tottenham Hale, Harlow Town and Stansted Mountfitchet and 1ph call at Tottenham Hale and Harlow Town.

 

[Silver Cobra]

For journeys from CPAY Thameslink (North) and Great Northern stations to central London it looks like the new Off Peak Day Return fare (DDR) is based on the outgoing weekday Super Off Peak Day Return, usually midway between the weekend equivalent and existing Off Peak Day Return (CDR) - both of these going as well. Day Travelcard changes will follow the same pattern save for the Off Peak type (ODT) simply changing in price, so I think weekday evening journeys will stay permitted with that particular ticket.

As a result 'CPAY OffPK Info' fares for those journeys tend to be lower than the test equivalents that were based on the CDR.

On the subject of the Great Northern stations being included in Project Oval, I've noticed that they are all losing their weekend Super Off Peak Day Travelcards from 7th December. Although the price of the Off Peak Day Travelcards is being reduced slightly, it means the price for travelling at weekends will increase by quite a margin. Using Stevenage as an example, until 6th December you can get the Super Off Peak Day Travelcard for £26.10 or the Off Peak Day Travelcard for £34.30, but from 7th December you can only get the Off Peak Day Travelcard for £32.50.

So from 7th December, for weekend travel, anyone from stations between Stevenage and Baldock travelling into London who wants a Travelcard would be better off purchasing one from either Arlesey or Ashwell & Morden, where the Super Off Peak will still be available for £29.00.

 

[Hadders]

On the subject of the Great Northern stations being included in Project Oval, I've noticed that they are all losing their weekend Super Off Peak Day Travelcards from 7th December. Although the price of the Off Peak Day Travelcards is being reduced slightly, it means the price for travelling at weekends will increase by quite a margin. Using Stevenage as an example, until 6th December you can get the Super Off Peak Day Travelcard for £26.10 or the Off Peak Day Travelcard for £34.30, but from 7th December you can only get the Off Peak Day Travelcard for £32.50.

So from 7th December, for weekend travel, anyone from stations between Stevenage and Baldock into London who wants a Travelcard would be better off purchasing one from either Arlesey or Ashwell & Morden, where the Super Off Peak will still be available for £29.00.

I'm surprised they reduced the price of the Off Peak tickets but there is the sting in the tail of an evening restriction out of London now.

Anyone travelling at weekends faces a 25% increase in the cost of a travelcard.

 

[Silver Cobra]

I'm surprised they reduced the price of the Off Peak tickets but there is the sting in the tail of an evening restriction out of London now.

While the Off Peak Day Return will have an evening restriction added, the Off Peak Day Travelcard seems to have been spared this, at least according to the information on BRFares: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SVG&dest=BFR&grpd=0035&rte=1000&tkt=ODT&period=20251207

Outward Travel​
Return Travel​
RESTRICTIONS
The validity of this fare may be additionally restricted as shown below. These restrictions (if any) are a copy of those published by the rail industry, and are binding on passengers.
Restriction Code: B1 Restricted Days: Monday to Friday Mondays-Fridays​
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

**EDIT: National Rail Enquiries seems to confirm this as well (using 18th December as a test date)


Image shows the National Rail Enquiries website offering an Off Peak Day Travelcard for travel between Stevenage and London Blackfriars on a date after 7th December, where the return journey would be during the traditional 'evening peak' time.

While mentioning the National Rail Enquiries website, one oddity I noticed is that for the contactless fares it would only offer the Anytime fare for the journey starting at 0930, whereas for a paper single it would offer the Off Peak fare.

 

[Haywain]

I'm surprised they reduced the price of the Off Peak tickets but there is the sting in the tail of an evening restriction out of London now.

Worse still is the evening restriction on northbound journeys from places further out. To get from Luton Airport Parkway to Harlington, leaving at 1630, currently costs £6.00 for a day return, from December 7th it will be two singles at £7.80 or a return at £10.60. That's a price increase of around 30% for those who know to buy singles and 80% for those who don't.

 

[Hadders]

Worse still is the evening restriction on northbound journeys from places further out. To get from Luton Airport Parkway to Harlington, leaving at 1630, currently costs £6.00 for a day return, from December 7th it will be two singles at £7.80 or a return at £10.60. That's a price increase of around 30% for those who know to buy singles and 80% for those who don't.

Ouch! There are some eye-watering increases once you get into the detail.

 

[Richardr]

If people choose the convenience of contactless over railcards, will railcards be done away with?

The Railways Bill currently says:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/59-01/0325/240325.pdf

(1) Great British Railways must provide a scheme enabling persons who are young,
elderly or disabled to travel at discounted fares on railway passenger services provided
by participants in the scheme.
(2) Great British Railways may provide other schemes enabling travel at discounted fares
on railway passenger services provided by participants in the schemes.

No further detail, but at least some discounts will remain by law, with others at Great British Railways' discretion. No details as to what would qualify here.

 

[JonathanH]

No further detail, but at least some discounts will remain by law, with others at Great British Railways' discretion.

Indeed, given the 16-25, Senior and Disabled railcards have been enshrined in law since privatisation, it would be a negative move to remove them under GBR.

However, it is already the case that the 16-25 and Senior railcards don't provide discounts on 'peak' single fares using Oyster, so it wouldn't appear out of the question for that approach to apply if railcards were to be enabled on Contactless.

As it is, railcard discounts do apply on the 'paper' equivalents of Oval fares, subject to the restrictions of those railcards.

As the Section 28 of the Railways Act 1993 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1993/43/section/28 says:

(5) In this section—
“discount fare scheme” means any scheme for enabling persons who are young, elderly or disabled to travel by railway at discounted fares, subject to compliance with such conditions (if any) as may be imposed by or under the scheme;

 

[ClivePage]

At present the contactless fare is significantly less than the cost of a paper single, e.g. from Luton Airport Parkway to London. So it is very unfortunate that there still seems to be no progress on handling Railcard discounts for these fares. This probably means there are routes on which those using e.g. a Senior Railcard and hence forced to use a paper ticket (or an Oyster Card in the limited area where these are valid) to take advantage of the Railcard discount might end up paying as much or even more than those travelling without but using a contactless debit/credit card. The rail authorities have known about this problem for years but seem to totally uninterested in solving it.

 

[MrJeeves]

At present the contactless fare is significantly less than the cost of a paper single, e.g. from Luton Airport Parkway to London. So it is very unfortunate that there still seems to be no progress on handling Railcard discounts for these fares.

Although, for this particular example, a passenger could use GTR's keyGo system with a Railcard linked to obtain a discount on the Contactless PAYG fares. As long as they're not using EMR.

Simple, isn't it?!

 

[JonathanH]

At present the contactless fare is significantly less than the cost of a paper single, e.g. from Luton Airport Parkway to London.

That is true for single fares in the areas which aren't part of Project Oval. For fares at the Project Oval stations the 'paper' fares are the same as the contactless fare, although restrictions will differ.

This probably means there are routes on which those using e.g. a Senior Railcard and hence forced to use a paper ticket (or an Oyster Card in the limited area where these are valid) to take advantage of the Railcard discount might end up paying as much or even more than those travelling without but using a contactless debit/credit card.

That is currently for users to identify the right fare for their circumstances, although clearly that is not particularly passenger friendly.

 

[ClivePage]

Although, for this particular example, a passenger could use GTR's keyGo system with a Railcard linked to obtain a discount on the Contactless PAYG fares. As long as they're not using EMR.

Simple, isn't it?!

Well things might have changed, but I was told that the KeyGo system could only cope with Off-peak and not Super off-peak returns, and it is the latter that I used most often when travelling into London after the peak. It is, frankly, baffling that they set up so many different ticketing systems, all of which have serious limitations. And don't get me started on buying a QR-coded ticket to London Thameslink only to find that the ticket barriers at Farringdon don't accept them!

 

[MrJeeves]

Well things might have changed, but I was told that the KeyGo system could only cope with Off-peak and not Super off-peak returns, and it is the latter that I used most often when travelling into London after the peak. It is, frankly, baffling that they set up so many different ticketing systems, all of which have serious limitations.

keyGo, the pay-as-you-go system, has always supported the full range of day fares available as far as I know. It will charge a Day Travelcard fare if you take multiple services inside Zones 1-6, and within the wider PAYG area it will match the Contactless/Oyster rate too.

It has not been, and still is not, possible to load Super Off-Peak tickets onto a Smartcard, however.