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How Viable are Preserved Railways?

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brad465

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The K&ESR/Rother Valley railway must be doing okay long term as it's undergoing its extension to Robertsbridge (and not a cheap one either given the level crossing needs). I would hope on opening it has at least a short-term boost from the increased interest in visiting the extension, and longer term benefits from visitors being able to travel there by rail.
 
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Belperpete

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Now that they have moved over to offering experiences I'm afraid my money goes elsewhere.
There does seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what the Ffestiniog is offering.

Unlike most heritage railways that have one principle starting point (such as Sheffield Park or Pickering), where the great majority of people board to do a journey to the other end and back, the Ffestiniog is not a simple end to end line. It has trains starting from Porthmadog, Caernarfon and Blaenau Ffestiniog. To make things easier to understand for those booking on-line, they have named each of the trains, such as the Quarryman and Mountain Spirit. When trains were sold on-line by train time, it was not unknown for passengers to book on say the 1015 from Porthmadog but then turn up at Caernarfon or Blaenau Ffestiniog. Or to catch a train from Porthmadog expecting it to return there, when it is not. By naming each of the trains, it makes it easier to explain on-line where each train leaves from and goes to, how long the journey takes, and such like.

However, although the way it is being marketed on-line has been radically changed, the bottom line is that apart from a short period during COVID, you have always been able to turn up on the day and buy a ticket at the booking office, or to buy a ticket from the guard if boarding at an intermediate station, and to travel between any stations you want. You don't have allocated seats (except in first class), you are free to sit where you want on the train.

Unlike some heritage railways, the Ffestiniog deliberately under-sells its trains, to leave capacity for people who want to board at intermediate stations, and most trains even have a coach specifically allocated for intermediate stations, so that there are seats available for those who want to board at intermediate stations. Compared to some lines, which sell more tickets than there are seats available before the train has even left the starting station, I would say the Ffestiniog is far more accommodating of those who want to hop and off it's trains at random intermediate stations.
 

Jan Mayen

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Does the Ffestiniog/ Welsh Highland sell a ticket allowing you to hop on or off at intermediate stations over the course of a day or week? And is there a First Class version?
 

John Luxton

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Does the Ffestiniog/ Welsh Highland sell a ticket allowing you to hop on or off at intermediate stations over the course of a day or week? And is there a First Class version?
At present rovers only available at Gala weekends. First class is allocated seating. You can still turn up and just get a first class ticket - I have done that a couple of times when I have used the Conwy Valley line to make a connection and as it is very tightly timed booking in advance is not a good idea.
 

Krokodil

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Any idea when the next Gala is, please?
There's usually a Victorian (or is it "Bygones") Weekend in October, and on the WHR a Superpower event in September. Sometimes there's an event around June instead of Superpower.
 

bleeder4

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Does the Ffestiniog/ Welsh Highland sell a ticket allowing you to hop on or off at intermediate stations over the course of a day or week?
No, it's a real pain. You can't be spontaneous anymore, you have to limit yourself to the curated experiences they offer. For variety I sometimes used to start and end my journey at Minffordd as, like Blaenau, the FR station is right next to the Network Rail station. I'd then spend the day going back and forth along the line, getting off at each station. You can't even buy a Day Rover ticket now. If you want to spend the day riding the trains you have to buy a ticket for whatever the named train is in the morning, and then another ticket for whatever the named train is in the afternoon. And you can't get off along the way, you've got to do the full journey. So I rarely go there anymore, I'm not a fan of fixed experiences that offer me very little freedom.
 

nwales58

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No, it's a real pain. You can't be spontaneous anymore, you have to limit yourself to the curated experiences they offer.
Not quite. We've gone through this before ...

There is no day rover ticket, correct. I can't remember whether FR/WHR ever offered that outside the special weekends.

But you are not limited to the 'curated experiences', you can still pay a point-point fare just as before COVID. Even the request stops still exist.
 

Krokodil

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There is no day rover ticket, correct. I can't remember whether FR/WHR ever offered that outside the special weekends.
The FR certainly did - there was no full line return ticket for most of the day (there was the "Early Bird/Sunset Special" for the 08:40/18:05 round trips), you either bought a half-way return (to/from Tan-y-Bwlch, from either end of the line) or you bought a rover. The WHR didn't offer one, but with only three trains in each direction the opportunities for train hopping were reduced anyway.
 

A S Leib

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Does the Ffestiniog Round Robin allow breaks of journey on the Ffestiniog Railway portion (not that it helps with the WHR)?
 

Tim M

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No, it's a real pain. You can't be spontaneous anymore, you have to limit yourself to the curated experiences they offer. For variety I sometimes used to start and end my journey at Minffordd as, like Blaenau, the FR station is right next to the Network Rail station. I'd then spend the day going back and forth along the line, getting off at each station. You can't even buy a Day Rover ticket now. If you want to spend the day riding the trains you have to buy a ticket for whatever the named train is in the morning, and then another ticket for whatever the named train is in the afternoon. And you can't get off along the way, you've got to do the full journey. So I rarely go there anymore, I'm not a fan of fixed experiences that offer me very little freedom.
Might I suggest you go back just a few comments on this thread to #452 where Belberpete explains how the Ff&WHR operates today. If you want to join a train at Minffordd and travel to Dduallt, the guard will sell you an appropriate ticket. Essentially this is no different to pre Covid. Belperpete explains the reasoning behind ’experiences’, but for someone like you who wants to do something different, a quick chat with the guard will provide you with the freedom you have always had.
 

bramling

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Might I suggest you go back just a few comments on this thread to #452 where Belberpete explains how the Ff&WHR operates today. If you want to join a train at Minffordd and travel to Dduallt, the guard will sell you an appropriate ticket. Essentially this is no different to pre Covid. Belperpete explains the reasoning behind ’experiences’, but for someone like you who wants to do something different, a quick chat with the guard will provide you with the freedom you have always had.

The fact one has to have a chat with the guard means it isn’t really freedom, as opposed to buying a rover ticket at the beginning of the day and being able to do whatever you want.

What I also miss is having one or two historic carriages tagged on at the Ffestiniog end of the train, which also used to happen on the WHR. I don’t believe this happens now, unless anyone knows different.
 

Belperpete

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Not quite. We've gone through this before ...

There is no day rover ticket, correct. I can't remember whether FR/WHR ever offered that outside the special weekends.

But you are not limited to the 'curated experiences', you can still pay a point-point fare just as before COVID. Even the request stops still exist.
Correct. You are not limited to the on-line tickets. You can board and alight at any of the intermediate stations. As I said, the FR even allocates a carriage on most trains to facilitate that, so that (unlike some heritage railways) someone joining at an intermediate station can be fairly confident of getting a seat.

As Krokodil says, at some point in the past, the FR did convert the full line returns into rovers. This ceased under covid, and doesn't appear to have been reintroduced.

However, in mitigation, singles are now exactly half the price of returns, and if you get on or off at an intermediate station you pay less than someone who gets on at Porthmadog. So if, for example, you want to get on at Minffordd, get off at Tanygrisiau, walk down to TanyBwlch, and catch the train back to Minffordd, you could simply pay for a return from Minffordd to Tanygrisiau, which would cost less than the full-line return. However, you would save even more by buying a single from Minffordd to Tanygrisiau, and a single from TanyBwlch to Minffordd.

Essentially, unlike some heritage railways, the FR no longer penalises those who buy single tickets or want to do part journeys. If you are boarding at an intermediate station, a quick chat with the guard will ensure that you pay the best fare for what you want to do. However, if you want to be spontaneous, you could just pay the full return fare.

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The fact one has to have a chat with the guard means it isn’t really freedom, as opposed to buying a rover ticket at the beginning of the day and being able to do whatever you want.

If you want to get on or off at an intermediate station, you are going to need to have a chat with the guard anyway, as they will want to see your ticket, and you will probably need them to let you on or off.

What I also miss is having one or two historic carriages tagged on at the Ffestiniog end of the train, which also used to happen on the WHR. I don’t believe this happens now, unless anyone knows different.
Rather than having a hotch-potch of historic and modern coaches in one train, the FR now tends to run trains of all corridor stock and all compartment stock. When trains ran with a mixture, the modern stock with the big windows, access to toilets and refreshments, etc. was always more popular. People would take one look at the historic compartment coaches, and turn back to the modern stock. Most passengers who found that they couldn't get a seat in the modern stock, and that all that was left were the small compartment coaches felt that they were getting a raw deal. And the compartment coach on the WHR in particular got a lot of negative feedback. By running the historic coaches in their own train, the FR can sell them properly, and people are prepared for them.

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Does the Ffestiniog Round Robin allow breaks of journey on the Ffestiniog Railway portion (not that it helps with the WHR)?
I am not aware of anything that prohibits it. You will need to tell the guard what you intend doing, if you want to get off at an intermediate station.
 
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What I also miss is having one or two historic carriages tagged on at the Ffestiniog end of the train, which also used to happen on the WHR. I don’t believe this happens now, unless anyone knows different.
The trains to/from Blaenau Ffestiniog operate with exclusively modern stock (often with an observation car at the uphill end), but the shorter ones to Tan-y-Bwlch use the older carriages.

More details at https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/FR_Carriage_Formations#2024, with similar deployment during 2025.
 

Djgr

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Correct. You are not limited to the on-line tickets. You can board and alight at any of the intermediate stations. As I said, the FR even allocates a carriage on most trains to facilitate that, so that (unlike some heritage railways) someone joining at an intermediate station can be fairly confident of getting a seat.

As Krokodil says, at some point in the past, the FR did convert the full line returns into rovers. This ceased under covid, and doesn't appear to have been reintroduced.

However, in mitigation, singles are now exactly half the price of returns, and if you get on or off at an intermediate station you pay less than someone who gets on at Porthmadog. So if, for example, you want to get on at Minffordd, get off at Tanygrisiau, walk down to TanyBwlch, and catch the train back to Minffordd, you could simply pay for a return from Minffordd to Tanygrisiau, which would cost less than the full-line return. However, you would save even more by buying a single from Minffordd to Tanygrisiau, and a single from TanyBwlch to Minffordd.

Essentially, unlike some heritage railways, the FR no longer penalises those who buy single tickets or want to do part journeys. If you are boarding at an intermediate station, a quick chat with the guard will ensure that you pay the best fare for what you want to do. However, if you want to be spontaneous, you could just pay the full return fare.

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If you want to get on or off at an intermediate station, you are going to need to have a chat with the guard anyway, as they will want to see your ticket, and you will probably need them to let you on or off.


Rather than having a hotch-potch of historic and modern coaches in one train, the FR now tends to run trains of all corridor stock and all compartment stock. When trains ran with a mixture, the modern stock with the big windows, access to toilets and refreshments, etc. was always more popular. People would take one look at the historic compartment coaches, and turn back to the modern stock. Most passengers who found that they couldn't get a seat in the modern stock, and that all that was left were the small compartment coaches felt that they were getting a raw deal. And the compartment coach on the WHR in particular got a lot of negative feedback. By running the historic coaches in their own train, the FR can sell them properly, and people are prepared for them.

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I am not aware of anything that prohibits it. You will need to tell the guard what you intend doing, if you want to get off at an intermediate station.
The main problem is that it feels like the railway doesn't welcome visitors like me anymore.
 

jamess

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There's usually a Victorian (or is it "Bygones") Weekend in October, and on the WHR a Superpower event in September. Sometimes there's an event around June instead of Superpower.
The members magazine gives proposed dates for 2026 events. I haven’t got it with me today, but Bygones weekend is 2 to 5 October and there is also a summer weekend gala 19 to 21 June.
I can see those dates by checking my annual leave for 2026 and seeing what I have booked as leave, as I am a FR member!

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The trains to/from Blaenau Ffestiniog operate with exclusively modern stock (often with an observation car at the uphill end), but the shorter ones to Tan-y-Bwlch use the older carriages.

More details at https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/FR_Carriage_Formations#2024, with similar deployment during 2025.
The set formation that usually goes to Blaenau now often has an observation area at either end, as one of the FR observation cars has been turned.
 
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The set formation that usually goes to Blaenau now often has an observation area at either end, as one of the FR observation cars has been turned.
Indeed, both the A and B sets are generally top-and-tailed with observation cars at both ends, whereas historically these were only at the bottom end.
 

Belperpete

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The main problem is that it feels like the railway doesn't welcome visitors like me anymore.
Without knowing what a "visitor like me is", and why you don't feel welcome, it is hard to comment. You do appear to have got some big misconceptions about the Ffestiniog, and it would be useful to know where you have got them from.

As I have pointed out, the Ffestiniog goes out of its way to accommodate passengers who want to hop and off it's trains at intermediate stations, by allocating a specific carriage on most trains, and ensuring that there is still capacity left when trains depart. That is far more than many heritage lines do.

The only thing that they don't do is (with a few exceptions) sell tickets for intermediate stations on line. For those, you still need to get your ticket from the booking office or from the guard in the traditional manner. I suspect that this is to avoid over complicating the website, as considering the number of intermediate stations, there must be dozens of permutations of journeys between them.
 

Djgr

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Without knowing what a "visitor like me is", and why you don't feel welcome, it is hard to comment. You do appear to have got some big misconceptions about the Ffestiniog, and it would be useful to know where you have got them from.

As I have pointed out, the Ffestiniog goes out of its way to accommodate passengers who want to hop and off it's trains at intermediate stations, by allocating a specific carriage on most trains, and ensuring that there is still capacity left when trains depart. That is far more than many heritage lines do.

The only thing that they don't do is (with a few exceptions) sell tickets for intermediate stations on line. For those, you still need to get your ticket from the booking office or from the guard in the traditional manner. I suspect that this is to avoid over complicating the website, as considering the number of intermediate stations, there must be dozens of permutations of journeys between them.
A website is the key external facing communication channel of an organisation.

From reading the Ffestiniog website, it conveys a clear message that it is all about providing "experiences" to groups of tourists.

As a solo traveller just wanting to mooch about on some trains, it is not clear how I fit into this.

Perhaps a redesign of the website might be a good start?
 

John Luxton

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A website is the key external facing communication channel of an organisation.

From reading the Ffestiniog website, it conveys a clear message that it is all about providing "experiences" to groups of tourists.

As a solo traveller just wanting to mooch about on some trains, it is not clear how I fit into this.

Perhaps a redesign of the website might be a good start?
I think the base timetable should be given greater prominence - perhaps even equal prominence on the web site to the experiences.

BUT as a solo traveller myself I certainly don't feel that I don't fit in. I really like going to the FWHR. There is always plenty to see and photograph.
 

Djgr

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I think the base timetable should be given greater prominence - perhaps even equal prominence on the web site to the experiences.

BUT as a solo traveller myself I certainly don't feel that I don't fit in. I really like going to the FWHR. There is always plenty to see and photograph.
I think I'll stick to the one 35 miles down the coast!
 

railfan99

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Despite having been to the UK in either September or October in each of the four years 2022 to 2025, it is impossible for travelling overseas tourists to properly assess how preserved railways are going financially.

But when back home I have read some of the larger ones' financial accounts: variable, but often not great.

What's the situation likely to be for 2026?

Have some cut, or will they cut, costs? Is the economy likely to improve a bit and help to drive visitation, notwithstanding that heritage railways are competing with smartphones that encourage kids and some adults to stay at home, historic homes, castles, amusement parks and holidays not around the UK but to the Canary Islands or anywhere else that takes a Brit's fancy?

My inclination is sometimes to opine 'you have 55 million residents plus on a small island, and millions of overseas tourists visit annually, so preserved railways should do ok'. But that has too many assumptions.
 

Belperpete

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My inclination is sometimes to opine 'you have 55 million residents plus on a small island, and millions of overseas tourists visit annually, so preserved railways should do ok'. But that has too many assumptions.
Very few of those overseas tourists stray from the tourist hotspots of Central London, York, and Edinburgh, other than perhaps to do a whirlwind coach tour of the whole UK in a week. So I doubt that overseas tourists make up more than a very small percentage of the custom to preserved railways. Some railways are tapping into the increasing cruise market, but that is only occasional so only likely to be a thin slither of jam on the bread.

Some railways, like the Bluebell and Severn Valley, are close to major population centres, and probably get most of their trade from day outers. Some, like the Ffestiniog and North Yorks, are probably more dependent on people holidaying in the area. The two types of visitors can be hit differently by economic circumstances. As I recall, the economic feel good factor was not very positive at the beginning of 2025, which is when most people book their holidays, so I think the home holiday market was hit badly this year. The impression I am getting is that things are a bit more positive now, for most people things didn't turn out as bad as they looked at the start of the year.

It is clear that we are in a significantly changed world since COVID. People's lifestyles have changed considerably. Some people's finances took a big hit. Others came out of it better off, but for most that temporary gain has now been used up. There was a big spike in holidaying in the UK, but that now seems to have largely dried up. Fuel costs and availability took a big hit. Some railways took longer than others to adapt to the new realities, but I think most have finally realised that things aren't going back to how they used to be.

Preserved railways took another big hit this year with the increase in the minimum wage and national insurance, which increased costs significantly. Coal is still a big problem, both in terms of cost and quality. But these are all now known issues, that hopefully the railways are on top of. I have no doubt that each railway will be reviewing it's operations and financial results this year very carefully in deciding what to do next year. However, many railways don't actually publish their accounts for this year until well into next year, some not until quite late in the operating season. So it will be interesting to see next year's timetables and fares.

My gut feeling is that for most railways, services are going to be similar to this year. Fare levels may be another matter.
 

kje7812

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My gut feeling is that for most railways, services are going to be similar to this year. Fare levels may be another matter.
For the Severn Valley, the timetables are going to be fairly similar to this year's proper running, discounting the emergency timetable due to collapse at Mor Brook. Some tweaks are been carried out so the proposed timetables aren't quite the same as this year's.
The actual number of operating dates is increased with some midweek April and October dates added.
Still awaiting the fare structure to be announced.
 

nanstallon

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Fares have increased to a point where people with families are having to think twice. Of course, all tourist attractions have the same problems, and in Cornwall we have lost several of these. Thankfully, the Bodmin railway seems to have had a good season.
 

railfan99

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The impression I am getting is that things are a bit more positive now, for most people things didn't turn out as bad as they looked at the start of the year.

A highly informative, excellent summary. Thank you.

I hope you are correct with the above statement.

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Thankfully, the Bodmin railway seems to have had a good season.

I travelled on it a couple of years ago. Despite the route being far from the longest preserved railway, it was an excellent day. The main station being a stub terminus in the middle added to the interest, and volunteers were very friendly without being instrusive. The September day I was there saw what I regarded as good patronage.
 

nanstallon

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Pleased to note the winter steam up at Bodmin today was well attended. There were brake van rides over the whole line. Such things give the visitor offering that something extra!
 
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