More Cambrian Signal Problems, 20 minute indefinite delays

[merlodlliw]

The problems continue, this time near Welshpool

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/sa87c8807921430887c773d365fd5b4b/details.html







now OK after a few hours chaos.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The problems continue, this time near Welshpool

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/sa87c8807921430887c773d365fd5b4b/details.html



Oh, now its 40 minute delays on the update

Lets not get too carried away with any ETCS bashing, Period 3 the Cambrian service group did 88% ppm post etcs, period 10 with retb was only 84%. Not all delays will be as a result of ertms sitting down remember about 12 different DMU's with around 6000 miles per casualty average doing 400 mile a day diagrams appear on the line each day.

 

[merlodlliw]

Lets not get too carried away with any ETCS bashing, Period 3 the Cambrian service group did 88% ppm post etcs, period 10 with retb was only 84%. Not all delays will be as a result of ertms sitting down remember about 12 different DMU's with around 6000 miles per casualty average doing 400 mile a day diagrams appear on the line each day.

Hope you were not delayed Gareth. On another matter a friend caught the something past one Cardiff to Carmarthen today, she said it was an overfull two coach with many left standing on leaving Cardiff.


Bob

 

[Greenback]

Hope you were not delayed Gareth. On another matter a friend caught the something past one Cardiff to Carmarthen today, she said it was a full two coach with standing room only on leaving Cardiff.


Bob

That doesn't sound too unusual. The two car 175's are usually pretty full on leaving Cardiff and heading west, even in the early afternoon during school holidays.

 

[moggie]

Lets not get too carried away with any ETCS bashing, Period 3 the Cambrian service group did 88% ppm post etcs, period 10 with retb was only 84%. Not all delays will be as a result of ertms sitting down remember about 12 different DMU's with around 6000 miles per casualty average doing 400 mile a day diagrams appear on the line each day.

On the contrary - it is the 'we must have the new technology because it is so much better than what it replaces' mentality that saddled the WCRM with the debacle of TCS. Once a technology promising the holy grail of significant cost savings is committed to, it becomes nigh on impossible to change the direction until the damage is done, be it a realisation that the promise is undeliverable as happened with WCRM or god forbid an accident, because of an inadequate understanding of the interface issues that new technology often introduces.

Of course the introduction of new technology / systems has to be carried out somewhere at sometime otherwise we would never make progress but the step change in rail signalling that is ERTMS level 2 (or 3) needs very careful introduction with a retrospective option retained (similar to the introduction of the latest CBI technology. As usual all the talk seems focused on the commercial issues up till now.

Whatever defense is put up by the industry to defend it's new baby, there is something very wrong when you get a combination of unreliability (perhaps not so unforgivable as it often takes time to bed in new kit but commercially could create a lot of noise from the incumbent operator stuck with the unreliability and fed up customers) and safety incidents (equivelant of 6 spads) in it's relatively short existence as an installation and no conventional fall back option.

While ORR have commissioned a report into the difficulties encountered with the Cambrian ERTMS roll out and the readiness of industry to extend the roll out nationally, I hope that part of this investigation whether by ORR or a delegated body includes a thorough examination of the underlying causes of such a high number of safety incidents. The nature of the track layout and frequency of train operations on a main line route such as Thameslink will not be so forgiving as the Cambrian Lines. So far they have been lucky, and safety systems by definition have failed once you are reliant on luck.

 

[The Planner]

It scares me that they want to roll it out on the GWML, I can see that slipping and slipping...

 

[Greenback]

There do seem to have been an awful lot of problems with ERTMS on the Cambrian. What worries me is that it will be claimed that the lessons have been learned, and that it can now be introduced elsewhere and the mistakes will not be repeated.

 

[anthony263]

I do admit they need to sort it out especially if they want to roll it out on the GWML

 

[Gareth Marston]

period 4 was 90.1% only 4 points off pre etcs....

miffed a hack on a local rag when he called me for lowdown on problems when i told him i was on a on time train that had just crossed another on time train at Talerddig.

 

[TDK]

There do seem to have been an awful lot of problems with ERTMS on the Cambrian. What worries me is that it will be claimed that the lessons have been learned, and that it can now be introduced elsewhere and the mistakes will not be repeated.

That is why they have tested it on the biggest Welsh siding and not the WCML

 

[Gareth Marston]

That is why they have tested it on the biggest Welsh siding and not the WCML

I've said it before but theres a tendency to blame all punctuality problems on ETCS which is not the case, some of the late July/early august probs were down to Axle Counter failures - the very same type of axle counters that caused probs at Portsmouth and Crewe-Manchester apparently.

 

[moggie]

It's most unlikely to be the same Axle Counters as used at Portsmouth as these were supplied by Siemans whereas Cambrian is an Ansaldo system (as was Crewe- Manchester).

Irrespective of what type of axle counters are used they are either suffering from hardware / software problems which causes intermittent failures with the count and prevents reset / restore or there's something in the interface between the Control / Interlocking and the Axle Counter system preventing efficient reset / restore which is the whole point of using axle counters.

Either way, ETCS is the whole signalling system and the train interface so whichever way you look at it, a component of ETCS is at fault.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

How can you have a 20 minute indefinite delay? Surely if it's 20 minutes then it's not indefinite!

 

[Greenback]

It could be a minimum of 20 minutes dealys for an indefinite period

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Cambrian Mainline is bad for knock on delays due to its timetable all passengers trains are timed to cross at Talerddig, its roughly 17/18 minutes from its nearest loops at Machynlleth/Newtown. Hence if one of the converging services leaves Aberytwyth or Shrewsbury late theres a good chance the other one will have to wait in Talerddig and become late itself. The turnaround at Aberystwyth is not generous either. The reinstated track at Dyfi Jnc and Welshpool is no use to help as there even further away. We have advocated putting the loop back at Caersws and this as costed for £400K a few years back.

We've had cows on the line, broken rails at Wolverhampton, awaiting late running connections from Cardiff, a passenger collapsing at Aberystwyth station onboard, units failing to couple at Machynlleth in recent weeks but everyone assumes its always etcs...

 

[merlodlliw]

The Cambrian Mainline is bad for knock on delays due to its timetable all passengers trains are timed to cross at Talerddig, its roughly 17/18 minutes from its nearest loops at Machynlleth/Newtown. Hence if one of the converging services leaves Aberytwyth or Shrewsbury late theres a good chance the other one will have to wait in Talerddig and become late itself. The turnaround at Aberystwyth is not generous either. The reinstated track at Dyfi Jnc and Welshpool is no use to help as there even further away. We have advocated putting the loop back at Caersws and this as costed for £400K a few years back.

We've had cows on the line, broken rails at Wolverhampton, awaiting late running connections from Cardiff, a passenger collapsing at Aberystwyth station onboard, units failing to couple at Machynlleth in recent weeks but everyone assumes its always etcs...

Has you are on the spot & know the score, thanks for the info, er perhaps I was too quick to blame everything on ERTMS on another matter passed through Newtown on Saturday going to the Royal Welsh for the International Show with SWMBO, the price of diesel is 5p higher than Wrexham, even with your supermarkets, good I filled up out of Powys. Also noted the new bypass is open.

 

[The Planner]

It wouldnt get any better if the hourly ever happens as trains will be crossing at more locations.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It wouldnt get any better if the hourly ever happens as trains will be crossing at more locations.

The 62 min time it takes to get from New St to International and back to New St has since Dec 08 has helped get westbound services presenting a lot better at Shrewsbury however if something gores wrong on the Cambrian there's still no back up, we pointed this out to NR/WAG in 2008. The official line remains that the loops at Dyfi Jnc and Welshpool/Fron will aid timetable resilience.

 

[The Planner]

62 ?? more like 44. xx.36 off New St and back to New St at xx.20.

 

[WestyAds]

The 62 min time it takes to get from New St to International and back to New St has since Dec 08 has helped get westbound services presenting a lot better at Shrewsbury however if something gores wrong on the Cambrian there's still no back up, we pointed this out to NR/WAG in 2008. The official line remains that the loops at Dyfi Jnc and Welshpool/Fron will aid timetable resilience.

Is the Welshpool/Fron loop still not in use? Couldn't help noticing on my last journey back to Aberystwyth the other week that we were still coming in on Platform 1, which can't be helping with delays. Back before the loop was connected, I recall times when we'd pass a late-running Aber-Shrewsbury service at Welshpool instead of waiting for it to make it to Shrewsbury, which at least helped to shave a quarter of an hour off our own delay. With the nearest passing point outside of Shrewsbury currently Newtown station, it must be a lot more difficult to make up lost time.

I have to say, though, that either I've been rather lucky or the delays haven't been quite so widespread as they may seem on here: since ETCS went live, I can only recall one of my journeys being delayed by more than a couple of minutes and that was due to the aforementioned passenger being taken ill at Aberystwyth station. Clearly the fates have been smiling on me

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It could be a minimum of 20 minutes delays for an indefinite period

This is exactly how I took the understanding of the statement.

 

[merlodlliw]

Is the Welshpool/Fron loop still not in use? Couldn't help noticing on my last journey back to Aberystwyth the other week that we were still coming in on Platform 1, which can't be helping with delays. Back before the loop was connected, I recall times when we'd pass a late-running Aber-Shrewsbury service at Welshpool instead of waiting for it to make it to Shrewsbury, which at least helped to shave a quarter of an hour off our own delay. With the nearest passing point outside of Shrewsbury currently Newtown station, it must be a lot more difficult to make up lost time.

I have to say, though, that either I've been rather lucky or the delays haven't been quite so widespread as they may seem on here: since ETCS went live, I can only recall one of my journeys being delayed by more than a couple of minutes and that was due to the aforementioned passenger being taken ill at Aberystwyth station. Clearly the fates have been smiling on me

I also noted at Welshpool while passing by car a lot of what appeared direction indicators on posts,with arrows what are these for?

Bob

 

[tirphil]

I also noted at Welshpool while passing by car a lot of what appeared direction indicators on posts,with arrows what are these for?

Bob

If they were blue boards with yellow arrows pointing towards a running line then they are 'Block markers'. These are used in conjuction with the in cab signalling to regulate trains.

 

[merlodlliw]

If they were blue boards with yellow arrows pointing towards a running line then they are 'Block markers'. These are used in conjuction with the in cab signalling to regulate trains.

Yes they were blue with yellow, but around Welshpool there must have been half a dozen or so. Thanks for the info.

 

[tirphil]

Yes they were blue with yellow, but around Welshpool there must have been half a dozen or so. Thanks for the info.

This is to allow trains to run in either direction on either the up or down Welshpool. And yes there are quite a few!

 

[Gareth Marston]

62 ?? more like 44. xx.36 off New St and back to New St at xx.20.

ATW arrive New St @ xx26 and sit for 10 minutes before going on to INTL with Charter minutes! Depart westbound from New St xx24. Effectively a 58 (sorry not 62 minutes) turnaround.

 

[The Planner]

Explain the "charter" minutes ? it is a properly constructed path with no recovery time in it.

They leave at xx.36 as that is the only available path for them. There is a 3 minute headway from New St to Proof House so unless they leave at xx.27 which they can't as a 1 minute dwell is insufficient at New St. The headway from Proof House to International is 4 minutes so even if they did have a 1 minute dwell they would impede the following Virgin at xx.30 and a knock on to the xx.33 LM due to reasons I will explain.

The xx.33 stops at Marston Green so the ATW has to have pathing time to keep the headway behind it. It then needs adjustment time for the approach control into platform 1 at International which releases from a red aspect and to also keep a junction margin with the xx.46 LM departure from International to New St.

Due to the length of the previous journey you can't turn it back straightaway in the next available path from International at xx.57 after the xx.53 Virgin departure as 7 minutes is insufficient for a turnaround. It goes back at xx.09 after the xx.05 LM departure for that reason. There is nothing "fiddled" about the ATW International run at all.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Explain the "charter" minutes ? it is a properly constructed path with no recovery time in it.

They leave at xx.36 as that is the only available path for them. There is a 3 minute headway from New St to Proof House so unless they leave at xx.27 which they can't as a 1 minute dwell is insufficient at New St. The headway from Proof House to International is 4 minutes so even if they did have a 1 minute dwell they would impede the following Virgin at xx.30 and a knock on to the xx.33 LM due to reasons I will explain.

The xx.33 stops at Marston Green so the ATW has to have pathing time to keep the headway behind it. It then needs adjustment time for the approach control into platform 1 at International which releases from a red aspect and to also keep a junction margin with the xx.46 LM departure from International to New St.

Due to the length of the previous journey you can't turn it back straightaway in the next available path from International at xx.57 after the xx.53 Virgin departure as 7 minutes is insufficient for a turnaround. It goes back at xx.09 after the xx.05 LM departure for that reason. There is nothing "fiddled" about the ATW International run at all.

Thanks for explaining the pathing constraints - if you look at the pubic timetable the extra time it takes between New St and International compared to other non stop trains does appear to give the impression of some extra minutes added. Look at the other end of the run and you'll certainly find them between Borth and Aberystwyth allowed 19 minutes for trains into Aber but only 13 the other way- I don't think there should be any pathing difficulty's out in Ceredigion!

Not sure why you would want to go back to New St straight away as you'd have to occupy a platform awaiting the xx24 departure slot.

 

[The Planner]

The Aberystwyth end is a PTT fiddle by ATW, but that is pretty obvious. The WTT has it arriving much earlier.

 

[merlodlliw]

Just met a friend off the 0930 from Aberystwyth, she tells me it left Aberystwyth two carriage full & standing, 15 minutes down at Shrewsbury.
Two carriages in the peak of the holiday season. Anyhow picked her up at Wrexham, again a two coach Brm Int to Holyhead,it left Wrexham with both carriages standing room only, the majority I am sure would get off at Chester

Out of interest, if on time The Aber arrives Shrewsbury one minute after the Holyhead as left, so an hours wait, one wonders why.


Bob