Flight crew protocols when a pilot leaves the flight deck

[Rob F]

Ever since the GermanWings ‘incident’, whenever travelling with RyanAir I have noticed that when a member of the cockpit crew needs to use the toilet, the fasten seatbelts sign will go on, as the flight crew leaves the cockpit a member of cabin crew goes in, and the fasten seatbelts sign stays lit until the whole procedure has been reversed.

I thought this was now standard procedure on all airlines, but I was on an EasyJet flight this week when it definitely did not happen. One of the flight crew came out for a chat with the cabin crew, nobody went into the cockpit when he came out and the seatbelts light was not lit as he was chatting to passengers queuing for the toilet. There were definitely only two flight crew in the cockpit.

Is it just RyanAir that implement the more formal procedure?

 

[Watershed]

Different airlines have different procedures on this. There isn't an EU-wide or UK regulation which requires a second member of crew to be in the cockpit at all times.

I think it's rather a strange policy not to do so, given that it has comparatively little impact on the cabin crew's duties to step into the cockpit for a couple of minutes. But clearly the airlines have being successful in convincing the regulators otherwise.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Different airlines have different procedures on this. There isn't an EU-wide or UK regulation which requires a second member of crew to be in the cockpit at all times.

Anything to do with the incident in March 2015 when a German wings Airbus A320-211 crashed into the French Alps; this after the co-pilot had been left alone in the cockpit, before allegedly locking the door and then deliberately crashing the plane?

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it's rather a strange policy not to do so, given that it has comparatively little impact on the cabin crew's duties to step into the cockpit for a couple of minutes. But clearly the airlines have being successful in convincing the regulators otherwise.

Yes it does seem odd that airlines haven't adopted a "no lone zone" working arrangement for flight decks. I'm by no means a nervous flyer (I actually really enjoy take-off, landing, turbulence, all the things that normally make people nervous!) but I can't help but admit that if I notice that one of the pilots has left the flight deck and the other is in there alone I do feel a small pang of anxiety until the other returns. It's silly. Germanwings was such an aberration. But it's the one bit of flying that does trigger ae small bit of worry.

Perhaps in some respects that's actually a testament to the safety of aviation that things which are the most dangerous phases of flight I find enjoyable but something which has happened only a handful of times across millions of flights makes me a tiny bit anxious!

Anything to do with the incident in March 2015 when a German wings Airbus A320-211 crashed into the French Alps; this after the co-pilot had been left alone in the cockpit, before allegedly locking the door and then deliberately crashing the plane?

Well yes, that's the whole point of the question in the opening post

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Well yes, that's the whole point of the question in the opening post

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, the OP did mention the very same incident, just trying to place when it was. Over ten years ago now!

 

[pug1]

My outfit when a member of the flight deck needs to leave the flight deck, it is a rule that one of the active members of the crew must step in. They often like to pop in for a chat anyway.

This doesn’t apply to jump seat passengers unless they are on a check/training flight, in which case it’s permissible to have a pilot and check pilot/safety pilot in the flight deck.

Not sure in the case of EasyJet, but it can be quite tricky to spot a jump seat crew member on the Airbus as the seats are behind the captain's and first officers seat, not in the case of the B737 which is an uncomfortable fold down bench!

There is a ‘seat’ behind the captain, but this seat would assume that the occupant doesn’t have any legs.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, the OP did mention the very same incident, just trying to place when it was. Over ten years ago now!

Yes took me by surprise it was so long ago as well!

 

[greatkingrat]

If the pilot suddenly decides to crash the aircraft, what would a random member of cabin crew be able to do to stop them anyway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the pilot suddenly decides to crash the aircraft, what would a random member of cabin crew be able to do to stop them anyway?

Open the door to let the other pilot back in. From 35000 feet you have a fair bit of time, and if it's an Airbus the aircraft won't let him just put it in a spin - the Germanwings crash was somewhat gradual. That could have been averted if the other pilot had been able to get back in and take the controls, particularly if other crew or passengers helped restrain the errant pilot.

 

[LucyP]

In the Germanwings case, the pilot simply reduced the altitude on the autopilot to zero.

Different airlines have different protocols and there are still plenty of planes that have no cockpit door at all, not even a curtain. The Aurigny Dorniers on the Guernsey to Alderney and the Southampton to Alderney routes for example.

 

[ainsworth74]

Different airlines have different protocols and there are still plenty of planes that have no cockpit door at all, not even a curtain. The Aurigny Dorniers on the Guernsey to Alderney and the Southampton to Alderney routes for example.

Though isn't that a regulatory thing? Aircraft below a certain size/capacity don't require doors? I can't imagine that EASA or the CAA would sign off on an operator that was planning on flying an A320 around without a door just because their operating procedures allowed it!

 

[edwin_m]

As I understand it a person outside normally requests the pilot to unlock the door via a switch on the panel. If that doesn't work (perhaps if a single pilot is incapacitated) then the person outside can enter a code on a keypad which unlocks it after a time delay, provided the pilot doesn't inhibit it. If the pilot is determined to keep someone out then they can just continue to inhibit the opening.

If the pilot did something dangerous then a second person in the cockpit, whether the second pilot or a member of cabin crew, would either have to stop them or unlock the door for others to assist. Cabin crew might be less likely to recognise certain dangerous actions, but presumably not letting the second pilot back in would be a red flag.

 

[pug1]

As I understand it a person outside normally requests the pilot to unlock the door via a switch on the panel. If that doesn't work (perhaps if a single pilot is incapacitated) then the person outside can enter a code on a keypad which unlocks it after a time delay, provided the pilot doesn't inhibit it. If the pilot is determined to keep someone out then they can just continue to inhibit the opening.

If the pilot did something dangerous then a second person in the cockpit, whether the second pilot or a member of cabin crew, would either have to stop them or unlock the door for others to assist. Cabin crew might be less likely to recognise certain dangerous actions, but presumably not letting the second pilot back in would be a red flag.

This is exactly how it works. A cabin crew member couldn’t just open the door from the inside. Anyway I think the guidance for 2 crew members is more for incapacitation events than it is for such thankfully rare occurrences as intentional pilot actions. I’d suggest that the risk of interference by passengers in the cabin is far greater than that of within the flight deck, and as we know aviation is based on acceptable levels of risk.

I’m not sure if it’s still the case but some airlines mandate one member of the Flight Deck crew donning oxygen when above a certain FL and if one pilot is leaving the flight deck. Again this is based on individual airline SOPs and not regulatory requirement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is exactly how it works. A cabin crew member couldn’t just open the door from the inside. Anyway I think the guidance for 2 crew members is more for incapacitation events than it is for such thankfully rare occurrences as intentional pilot actions.

Given that it was introduced following that specific event I think it's pretty clear what the motivation was. After all, had the pilot in that case been incapacitated the other one could have entered using the code.

 

[pug1]

Given that it was introduced following that specific event I think it's pretty clear what the motivation was. After all, had the pilot in that case been incapacitated the other one could have entered using the code.

It wasnt introduced after this event, certainly not at my outfit who were doing this before Germanwings. It may have raised the profile, and of course the regulator needs to be seen to act, but it’s common sense that if you have one pilot on the flight deck behind a locked door it could cause problems in the event of incapacitation! It’s still not mandated, it’s up to individual companies to write their own SOPs under guidance primarily from the manufacturer with oversight by the regulator.

 

[gabrielhj07]

As @greatkingrat says, the general thinking among airlines that don’t require a second crew member in the FD, is that their presence would not really mitigate the threat of another Germanwings event at all.

if it's an Airbus the aircraft won't let him just put it in a spin

You can absolutely spin an Airbus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasnt introduced after this event, certainly not at my outfit who were doing this before Germanwings. It may have raised the profile, and of course the regulator needs to be seen to act, but it’s common sense that if you have one pilot on the flight deck behind a locked door it could cause problems in the event of incapacitation! It’s still not mandated, it’s up to individual companies to write their own SOPs under guidance primarily from the manufacturer with oversight by the regulator.

Many airlines didn't do it prior to the Germanwings incident. I'm fairly sure for instance that easyJet didn't.

 

[pug1]

Many airlines didn't do it prior to the Germanwings incident. I'm fairly sure for instance that easyJet didn't.

But the point here is that OP is certain easyJet didn’t do it on a recent flight. So in that case it is not mandated, it is airline discretion. Of course after such an event airlines will be keen to be shown to do something, as were the regulator. However many were and still do have individual procedures to mitigate the risk that they themselves manage, one such example I posted above which was use of oxygen when one flight deck member left the cockpit.

The real impact from Germanwings was on pilot Medicals and the increased scrutiny of mental health reporting and sharing of individual medical history which in this case slipped through the net due to patient confidentiality.

Like I said, there is a greater risk of locking one pilot in the flight deck through pilot incapacitation than there is nefarious intent by a pilot. Also not having a locked door increases the risk of interference from the cabin. Thankfully the Germanwings incident is incredibly rare. Aviation is about the management of risk and prioritising based on likelihood.

Also as @gabrielhj07 says above, you can spin an Airbus.

 

[66701GBRF]

From 35000 feet you have a fair bit of time, and if it's an Airbus the aircraft won't let him just put it in a spin

Airbus protections can be switched off.

 

[pug1]

Airbus protections can be switched off.

Exactly, put it in direct law and away you go.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In terms of pilot incapacitation this is an absolutely fascinating incident, little close for comfort for Lufthansa.

Mentor pilot did a good video.

Linked here

 

[FinsburyPark]

If the pilot suddenly decides to crash the aircraft, what would a random member of cabin crew be able to do to stop them anyway?

Depending on the levels of physical strength, they could stop the rogue pilot.

While I cannot remeber all the details on Air Crash Investigation or Mayday a Pilot basically forced the flight yoke in the nose down position and held it there.

The cabin crew member can either open the door to let the other pilot in, if the other pilot is able to enter.

Or

They can attept to use physical strenght to prevent said rogue pilot doing what they are doing and maybe pull up on the yoke.

If it saves lives years from now, I'm all for it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

On Delta airlines in the USA and over the ocean, if any pilot not just the captain leaves the flight deck, a flight attendant takes his/her place.

 

[F Great Eastern]

On Delta airlines in the USA and over the ocean, if any pilot not just the captain leaves the flight deck, a flight attendant takes his/her place.

As someone who doesn't take easyJet that often, I was surprised to see on a recent easyJet flight pilots coming and going out of the cockpit and seemingly freely queuing for the toilet along with passengers around the cockpit door with passengers freely able to freely roam without much of a bother, without any cabin crew being anywhere near the door. Was this a crew not following operational guidelines or is this something that they permit? I don't want to say too much more here, but for me that creates a vulnerability?

This is completely different to Ryanair where the fasten seatbelt sign comes on, the pilot doesn't leave the cockpit until the toilet is empty and passengers are seated and a cabin crew member goes in to replace the pilot with another crew member helping guard the door until the pilot goes back in and the seatbelt sign goes off.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I don't want to say too much more here, but for me that creates a vulnerability?

What would be vulnerable about that situation?

 

[F Great Eastern]

What would be vulnerable about that situation?

Don't think it's appropriate to spell it out here.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Don't think it's appropriate to spell it out here.

I’m confused. The flightdeck is quite secure in the situation you describe?

 

[hotelmode]

Who is more likely to present a risk? The pilot with massive barriers to entry, several years training and frequent physical and mental health checks or the Cabin Crew member employed 8 weeks ago?

If its the former then presumably all public transport should be multi crewed?

And that's before the added distraction and the additional door open time caused.

This is completely different to Ryanair where the fasten seatbelt sign comes on, the pilot doesn't leave the cockpit until the toilet is empty and passengers are seated and a cabin crew member goes in to replace the pilot with another crew member helping guard the door until the pilot goes back in and the seatbelt sign goes off.

Different authorities and airlines will come up with different solutions, but, this makes the opening of the door, a) predictable, and b) will mean its open longer. I'm not sure either are ideal.

 

[edwin_m]

Mentour Pilot has posted a video this evening on the Germanwings crash:

Some sobering thoughts on the situation of pilots with mental health issues, and also explanation of the sequence of events in relation to the cockpit door.