LNER Class 91 - What are the retirement plans?

[43096]

There looks to be a return move to Neville Hill this afternoon before the locos return to Doncaster - could it be that the DVT was needed for some reason and is coming back later on?

DVT and TOE (122xx) would be required as coupling translators.

 

[Fuzzytop]

I don't think I've seen this asked yet, what will happen to 2 spare coaches in each set which are being removed?

The other possibility was the 225 Group, but they had a paragraph in their latest magazine to explain that they are not planning on acquiring any of them:

The group has decided that it's not practicable to seek to acquire any vehicles from the next batch of retirees, as they'll require a lot of resource, both financial and physical. Even if we had the funds in place to allow us to make an offer for one of these vehicles and have it removed from storage, we wouldn't have anywhere to keep it or the skills to maintain it if our bid was accepted.

 

[1D53]

There looks to be a return move to Neville Hill this afternoon before the locos return to Doncaster - could it be that the DVT was needed for some reason and is coming back later on?

12214 & 82225 coming back.

 

[mq90]

Morning,

Thought I'd use this existing thread rather than create a new one.

Due to travel to Leeds from KX in June of 2026 for a gig and wanted to treat myself with an advance 1st class LNER ticket. Will class 91 trains still be running then?

And is there a way to know for sure which times will be running with this set rather than with Azumas?

 

[35B]

Morning,

Thought I'd use this existing thread rather than create a new one.

Due to travel to Leeds from KX in June of 2026 for a gig and wanted to treat myself with an advance 1st class LNER ticket. Will class 91 trains still be running then?

And is there a way to know for sure which times will be running with this set rather than with Azumas?

The diagrams will be available, so it should be possible to know what will run with 91s.

As always, what happens on the day may vary due to circumstances, so I'd hesitate about "for sure".

 

[mq90]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I'd rather save on the advance ticket and maybe miss out on the 225 experience rather than shell out for more "flexible" options.

 

[LucyP]

Yes they will be running as the new CAF trains are not due to be delivered until 2027. They only run on the Leeds to Kings Cross and return route, not on the Scotland route. 225group publish a timetable for the 91s currently. Traksy will also tell you. Obviously you will have to do this much nearer to the time, but you cannot book tickets so far in advance anyway.

The 91s are so much more spacious, luxurious and comfortable than an Azuma. A 91 is always an upgrade. Maybe the food will be better next summer. The current menu is pretty poor. Even the pork pie (which was good) has disappeared from the grazing box.

 

[35B]

Thanks, that's what I thought. I'd rather save on the advance ticket and maybe miss out on the 225 experience rather than shell out for more "flexible" options.

By the time that booking opens, I would expect it to be clear a) which diagrams are booked and b) which (if any) are predictably unreliable.

 

[jus363]

Without going through the hole thread Did LNER reduced a set to 7 coaches a while back to see if it was faster than a 9 car set ?

 

[D365]

Without going through the hole thread Did LNER reduced a set to 7 coaches a while back to see if it was faster than a 9 car set ?

There’s a dedicated discussion taking place here. But in answer to your question - the performance was modelled by computer simulation first. Long before any of the sets were modified.

 

[jus363]

There’s a dedicated discussion taking place here. But in answer to your question - the performance was modelled by computer simulation first. Long before any of the sets were modified.

Thanks for that

 

[E27007]

5Q26 ran today, Neville Hill d0958 to Worksop arr 1158 via Retford (reversal)
Top&tailed by class 93 locos transfering Mk4 stock, the DVT number 25.
Does anyone have the numbers of the Mark 4 stock in the 5Q26 consist?

 

[1D53]

Formation was:

12424
11413
12467
12220
+82225.

82225 & 12220 are heading back North.

 

[E27007]

Formation was:

12424
11413
12467
12220
+82225.

82225 & 12220 are heading back North.

thank you.
From the information it would seem set NL16 is the most recent reduction to 7 coaches leaving sets NL17 and NL26 as the final 9-coach sets.
A puzzle concerns NL26, "platform-end gen" states NL26 ran for several weeks as an 8-coach formation and very recently reverted to conventional 9-coach formation, during the same week its siblings were being reformed from 9 to 7 coaches, you would think NL26 would be a prime candidate to trim to 7, was NL26 (load 8 +DVT) used as an experimental benchmark for 91 performance and timings?

 

[800001]

thank you.
From the information it would seem set NL16 is the most recent reduction to 7 coaches leaving sets NL17 and NL26 as the final 9-coach sets.
A puzzle concerns NL26, "platform-end gen" states NL26 ran for several weeks as an 8-coach formation and very recently reverted to conventional 9-coach formation, during the same week its siblings were being reformed from 9 to 7 coaches, you would think NL26 would be a prime candidate to trim to 7, was NL26 (load 8 +DVT) used as an experimental benchmark for 91 performance and timings?

Most likely just a defective coach removed for maintenance.

 

[xotGD]

Most likely just a defective coach removed for maintenance.

I think so. I was in an 8 coach set last week and Coach D was missing. Reservations transferred to Coach E.

 

[E27007]

Most likely just a defective coach removed for maintenance.

Yes, but contrary to the programme of formation reduction, during the same weeks of sets being trimmed from 9 to 7 coaches, set NL26 extended from 8 to 9 coaches, is there a plan for NL26 remain in long-term service as a exception, a IC225 9-coach formation with a function of to deputising for a shortfall of Azuma units?

 

[800001]

Yes, but contrary to the programme of formation reduction, during the same weeks of sets being trimmed from 9 to 7 coaches, set NL26 extended from 8 to 9 coaches, is there a plan for NL26 remain in long-term service as a exception, a IC225 9-coach formation with a function of to deputising for a shortfall of Azuma units?

So most likely NL26 had a coach removed at some point for maintenance. And no, it will me all Mk4 running as 7 car sets.

As has been discussed many times on here, the mk4 sets need to operate as 7 car sets to be able to run to the timings of the new December 25 timetable.

If they ran as a 9 car set they would lose time.

 

[tfw756rider]

...the new CAF trains are not due to be delivered until 2027.

The new CAF trains (897s) have been delayed until 2028-2029 due to a flood at one of their suppliers' factories.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2025 ==

As of today (Fri 28/11/25), how many of the IC225s are running as 2+9 and how many are running as 2+7 (or even 2+8)?

And will that situation likely change by Tue 2/12/25, which is when I'm planning on getting in a ride?

 

[trainswitheddy]

The new CAF trains (897s) have been delayed until 2028-2029 due to a flood at one of their suppliers' factories.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2025 ==

As of today (Fri 28/11/25), how many of the IC225s are running as 2+9 and how many are running as 2+7 (or even 2+8)?

And will that situation likely change by Tue 2/12/25, which is when I'm planning on getting in a ride?

9 cars are increasingly rare now afaik. On 2/12/25 I imagine all will be down to 7 sadly.

 

[tfw756rider]

9 cars are increasingly rare now afaik. On 2/12/25 I imagine all will be down to 7 sadly.

Well that's the soonest day I can do it, so hopefully not. I looked at what ran on the 24/11/25 to the 28/11/25 and there were still a few 9s on all 5 days.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Well that's the soonest day I can do it, so hopefully not. I looked at what ran on the 24/11/25 to the 28/11/25 and there were still a few 9s on all 5 days.

Tbf I'm just going on what I see on the day-to-day, so definitely take my word with a pinch of salt!! Be surprised if any are out by then though? Would've thought they'd want to be hasty about it seeing as though the 14th is nearly upon us (sadly!!)

 

[tfw756rider]

Tbf I'm just going on what I see on the day-to-day, so definitely take my word with a pinch of salt!! Be surprised if any are out by then though? Would've thought they'd want to be hasty about it seeing as though the 14th is nearly upon us (sadly!!)

I hear you, but fingers crossed for me.

 

[trainswitheddy]

I hear you, but fingers crossed for me.

1000%. I'm trying to get haulage myself...just depends what diagrams the 2+9 happens to be working that day
Without getting toooo off topic, timetable change also means 225s no longer stop at certain stations (except early workings afaik) so need to get some haulage before they become a tad inacessible...

 

[tfw756rider]

1000%. I'm trying to get haulage myself...just depends what diagrams the 2+9 happens to be working that day
Without getting toooo off topic, timetable change also means 225s no longer stop at certain stations (except early workings afaik) so need to get some haulage before they become a tad inacessible...

Best of luck to you too then.

 

[GoneSouth]

Could you remind us why they are reducing them to 7 please. They’re running the same routes as before and I’m fairly sure demand hasn’t fallen off a cliff! Thanks for the help.

 

[Bob85]

Could you remind us why they are reducing them to 7 please. They’re running the same routes as before and I’m fairly sure demand hasn’t fallen off a cliff! Thanks for the help.

Acceleration improvements

 

[GoneSouth]

Acceleration improvements

Ah ok, presumably for improved journey times in the new timetable?

 

[800001]

Ah ok, presumably for improved journey times in the new timetable?

More specifically, the December 25 timetable has been rewritten to utilise the full capability of the Azuma fleet.
The mk4 needed to lose 2 coaches to enable them to accelerate and keep time.
(Think still slightly slower than Azuma).

 

[hexagon789]

Ah ok, presumably for improved journey times in the new timetable?

Yes, but essentially the new timetable is based on Azuma performance, so the 225s need to be reduced in weight to approach similar acceleration performance and thus keep time.

(Think still slightly slower than Azuma).

Yes, though generally by 30 seconds between a set of stations.

I think someone said it works out at about 2.5 mins slower over London/Leeds.