South Wales 'Metro': could it be improved further, and has devolution helped or hindered the project?

[oglord]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro' updates

I thought it would be worthwhile to start a discussion on the South Wales 'Metro'. Basically, this is the scheme to enhance transport links across south east Wales. One of the key issues that needs to be addressed is what form of transport will be used on the Cardiff Valley lines network -...

www.railforums.co.uk

We are supposed to be unifying the railways, not creating more unnecessary complications.

 

[Daniel Boone]

We are supposed to be unifying the railways, not creating more unnecessary complications.

Do you think the UK Government would have delivered the South Wales Metro?

 

[oglord]

Do you think the UK Government would have delivered the South Wales Metro?

What is "the South Wales Metro"? Some discontinuous electrification and new rolling stock? Yes, absolutely. There was plan for proper electrification and cascaded Class 319s before all the so-called "core valley lines" was ever dreamt up.

 

[John R]

What is "the South Wales Metro"? Some discontinuous electrification and new rolling stock? Yes, absolutely. There was plan for proper electrification and cascaded Class 319s before all the so-called "core valley lines" was ever dreamt up.

There were also plans for electrification to Swansea, Bristol Temple Meads, Sheffield, the electric spine, (need I go on....). Guess what - they didn't happen, and still aren't happening 10 years later.

Do you think electrification of a few branch lines through relatively deprived areas that have never voted for the party in power would have come remotely near the top of any priority list. Because I don't.

 

[Daniel Boone]

What is "the South Wales Metro"?

You're on a thread discussing it.

 

[Bob Price]

What is "the South Wales Metro"? Some discontinuous electrification and new rolling stock? Yes, absolutely. There was plan for proper electrification and cascaded Class 319s before all the so-called "core valley lines" was ever dreamt up.

Wasn't it supposed to be 315's? Either way a load of cast offs rather than brand new trains.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

What is "the South Wales Metro"? Some discontinuous electrification and new rolling stock? Yes, absolutely. There was plan for proper electrification and cascaded Class 319s before all the so-called "core valley lines" was ever dreamt up.

yeah well ministers got wobbly over GWML and overreacted by cancelling everything which would have included anything in Wales. And they're still cancelling electrification up to this year. The Scottish and Welsh railways can actually deliver electrification and don't seem to be integrating badly with English operations in any way

 

[John R]

Wasn't it supposed to be 315's? Either way a load of cast offs rather than brand new trains.

Cast offs that would now by 45 years old, and which TfL withdrew 3 years ago.

 

[chrisjo]

Do you think electrification of a few branch lines through relatively deprived areas that have never voted for the party in power would have come remotely near the top of any priority list. Because I don't.

And there's the mystery in a nutshell. An administration that's totally incompetent, and yet is capable of pulling off such Machiavellian chicanery. A curious phenomenon indeed.

 

[John R]

And there's the mystery in a nutshell. An administration that's totally incompetent, and yet is capable of pulling off such Machiavellian chicanery. A curious phenomenon indeed.

Not really - just no interest in a part of the country that doesn't vote for it.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

And there's the mystery in a nutshell. An administration that's totally incompetent, and yet is capable of pulling off such Machiavellian chicanery. A curious phenomenon indeed.

how is that a "machiavellian chicanery" to ignore constituencies that don't vote for you - it's a textbook example of ruling simply with the interest of being in power but not actually effecting any positive change. It's an incredibly surface level reaction.
I'd argue central governments are not actually that genuinely incompetent - the system works exactly as intended, it's just not one designed with the population's interests

 

[Tom125]

how is that a "machiavellian chicanery" to ignore constituencies that don't vote for you - it's a textbook example of ruling simply with the interest of being in power but not actually effecting any positive change. It's an incredibly surface level reaction.
I'd argue central governments are not actually that genuinely incompetent - the system works exactly as intended, it's just not one designed with the population's interests

The British state has always been very good at developing policy (bringing this back to the metro- look at the well researched ideas for future cross rail, stations and wider TfW policy on buses etc).

Where the British state falls down is on delivery.

 

[Cardiff123]

What is "the South Wales Metro"? Some discontinuous electrification and new rolling stock? Yes, absolutely. There was plan for proper electrification and cascaded Class 319s before all the so-called "core valley lines" was ever dreamt up.

The idea that the 5 Conservative governments that we had between 2015-2020 would've been interested in upgrading and electrifying the Valley Lines, when almost every unfinished electrification scheme in England was being cancelled is for the birds.

Chris Grayling said as much in 2017, when UK Government reluctantly agreed to start the Parliamentary process to transfer the Core Valley Lines to Welsh Government and devolve responsibility for the Wales & Borders franchise. On a visit to Cardiff he "challenged" Welsh Govt to do better than UK Govt for Wales on rail, and said that people should see what UK Govt were doing with Northern, as that's what Wales would get if it was up to them, eg. replacement of Pacers with some new trains, and Sprinters running everywhere else into the foreseeable future. Grayling was a big champion of the Class 769 project.........

The "Metro" is not just a few miles of discontinuous electrification. The signalling and infrastructure on the Valley Lines has had its first major upgrades in decades, and Wales has had an entire fleet replacement thanks to Welsh Government.
The real scandal is that UK Government has forced Welsh Government to find the money to fully pay for these fleet & infrastructure upgrades from other devolved areas, such as health & education, as Wales gets no devolved funding for rail upgrades.

 

[oglord]

The "Metro" is not just a few miles of discontinuous electrification. The signalling and infrastructure on the Valley Lines has had its first major upgrades in decades

CASR was completed (by Network Rail) before the concept of "Core Valley Lines" was even a thing.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I guess this ship has sailed, but I still think the Treherbert line has too many stations when compared to the Aberdare and Merthyr lines. Given the linear nature of Rhondda Fawr, the train is essentially duplicating bus services, which are better suited for short journeys between valley towns.

 

[John R]

I guess this ship has sailed but I still think the Treherbert line has too many stations when compared to the Aberdare and Merthyr lines. Given the linear nature of Rhondda Fawr, the train is essentially duplicating bus services which are better suited for short journeys between valley towns.

The built up area is more continuous in the Rhondda Fawr, which probably explains it. Eg, not much between Quakers Yard and Merthyr Vale.

 

[AdamWW]

I guess this ship has sailed but I still think the Treherbert line has too many stations when compared to the Aberdare and Merthyr lines. Given the linear nature of Rhondda Fawr, the train is essentially duplicating bus services which are better suited for short journeys between valley towns.

Surely a lot of travel will be from these stations into Cardiff, not between them?
Having to get a bus then change onto a train to get to Cardiff isn't likely to get many people out of cars.

 

[oglord]

That is actually a reason why devolution should be scrapped because it causes these pointless bun fights!
If you want joined up, integrated public transport across Britain then devolution just gets in the way...

 

[Zoomer]

That is actually a reason why devolution should be scrapped because it causes these pointless bun fights!
If you want joined up, integrated public transport across Britain then devolution just gets in the way...

Well there are two directions we could go - more/full devolution, or less/no devolution. As a born and bred Englishman who's been living in Wales for many years, when I look at what's been achieved here with the Metro project and compare with the state of public transport over the bridge in Bristol, scrapping devolution seems like a bonkers suggestion. While nothing is perfect, TfW have in my opinion done an absolutely fantastic job to date, in the face of some huge challenges, and hats off to James Price and all parties involved for getting us to where we are.

 

[oglord]

While nothing is perfect, TfW have in my opinion done an absolutely fantastic job to date, in the face of some huge challenges, and hats off to James Price and all parties involved for getting us to where we are.

I pondered this before. There is some discontinuous electrification and some new rolling stock. I fail to see how this is as amazing as the Metro cheerleaders say it is.

 

[edwin_m]

I pondered this before. There is some discontinuous electrification and some new rolling stock. I fail to see how this is as amazing as the Metro cheerleaders say it is.

Bristol has neither of those things.

 

[oglord]

Bristol has neither of those things.

Well, obviously, but new rolling stock is hardly that much of a big deal, it happens all the time and frankly tram-trains will be a rolling-stock downgrade when they are introduced on the Rhymney line.
Discontinuous electrification is a value-engineering hack that restricts potential future rolling stock and Garry Keenor is not a fan of permanent discontinuity for reasons that have been explained many times.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Well, obviously, but new rolling stock is hardly that much of a big deal, it happens all the time and frankly tram-trains will be a rolling-stock downgrade when they are introduced on the Rhymney line.
Discontinuous electrification is a value-engineering hack that restricts potential future rolling stock and Garry Keenor is not a fan of permanent discontinuity for reasons that have been explained many times.

They're not being introduced on the Rhymney line. You're ill-informed. I suggest we move all conversation pertaining to devolution to another thread. As clearly there's a lot of interest and opinion.

 

[oglord]

They're not being introduced on the Rhymney line.

I got the name of the line wrong. My point still stands: a tram-train is a downgrade from a FLIRT.

 

[lachlan]

Well, obviously, but new rolling stock is hardly that much of a big deal, it happens all the time and frankly tram-trains will be a rolling-stock downgrade when they are introduced on the Rhymney line.
Discontinuous electrification is a value-engineering hack that restricts potential future rolling stock and Garry Keenor is not a fan of permanent discontinuity for reasons that have been explained many times.

Having tried the new trains in Cardiff they are a big step up from the sluggish diesels in Bristol and Bath - I took someone less interested in trains and he agreed. Electrified or not, the new trains feel quieter and speedier than GWR's local units.

Change is happening in Bristol but its frustratingly slow.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The comparison with Bristol is a great one, especially as I now live in Bristol but fairly often am back home near Treherbert. And the investment and improvements when comparing the two areas are night and day!
Also says a lot that the more recent talk of extra stopping services in the Bristol area have been from TfW rather than GWR!

I pondered this before. There is some discontinuous electrification and some new rolling stock. I fail to see how this is as amazing as the Metro cheerleaders say it is.

Just focusing on the Treherbert line as that is my families local:

New rolling stock is absolutely huge for an area that has had pacers and cast of 150's for decades.
It may not seem like much but the local reaction to actually having new trains has been positive. I've even overheard people who very much normally do not get excited about trains expressing surprise and excitement about them. Now yes, some of that will be dialed down with the 398's but still compared to the 150's that have literally been falling apart in recent years, its huge.

As for the electrification, again try telling people living locally that getting rid of the old 150's belching out diesel fumes all over South Wales isn't a great achievement.

And for other successes:

• More frequent Sunday services (it was only a few years ago the Treherbert line was 1tp2h on a Sunday, now its 1tph).
• Later evening services already happening (there is now a 2300 service to Treherbert when previously the last service was 2245 - doesn't sound like much but if you are going to a gig at the uni or something similar that is huge).
• Later weekend evening services to come still (I think it may even be in the December timetable for post midnight valleys services - again pretty big for those actually living locally)

And in due course we will eventually have the four trains an hour service for the valleys too.
I really don't how you can say all of that isn't worth celebrating.

I got the name of the line wrong. My point still stands: a tram-train is a downgrade from a FLIRT.

But a major step up from a pacer or a 150.

 

[AdamWW]

But a major step up from a pacer or a 150.

And in fact one major step up is the lack of a step up.

Easy to dismiss as unimportant by the able-bodied and unencumbered by pushchairs, but for some people it makes a huge difference.

 

[The exile]

The comparison with Bristol is a great one, especially as I now live in Bristol but fairly often am back home near Treherbert. And the investment and improvements when comparing the two areas are night and day!
Also says a lot that the more recent talk of extra stopping services in the Bristol area have been from TfW rather than GWR!

Think that’s a bit harsh on GWR, given that a) their status in terms of service provision is a different one and b) they have already boosted their stopping services in the Bristol area, with more in the pipeline.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Think that’s a bit harsh on GWR, given that a) their status in terms of service provision is a different one and b) they have already boosted their stopping services in the Bristol area, with more in the pipeline.

Absolutely agree that the reasons are complicated and aren't really solely in GWRs hands (lots to do with the DfT etc). But from a passenger point of view TfW are actively increasing frequency and later evening services whilst getting new rolling stock, and GWR have just opened a brand new station in a busy well populated area of Bristol and are just having one train an hour stop there with a last service of before 9pm with old rolling stock that seems to frequently break down (that one train per hour is often cancelled due to issues with the rolling stock). If the poster I was replying to thinks TfW and the South Wales Metro hasn't shown much, I daren't wonder what they think of the GWR services in and around Bristol.

But this is of course getting off topic now. My point was more TfW and the Welsh government have managed to achieve more than what has been achieved not just in the area previously, but also what has been achieved in some pretty major and populated English cities in recent times. There's a reason groups like Bristol Rail Campaign are looking at South Wales with envy right now.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Discontinuous electrification is a value-engineering hack that restricts potential future rolling stock and Garry Keenor is not a fan of permanent discontinuity for reasons that have been explained many times.

I do agree with this point in general, but I find the idea a bit ridiculous that SWMetro should never have happened because DfT (read: HMT) were going to electrify all the commuter lines fully. They would have cancelled it and done nothing but spew a few million up the wall paying planners, then designers, possibly even construction contractors to ready themselves on site just to then lose faith at the last moment and waste all that preparation. We didn't actually know back in the early 2010s just how much electrification Westminster was going to promise and then not deliver, so with hindsight, it was the right decision to let the Welsh Government carry out a scheme.