Should Avanti change a First Class coach to Standard Class on the 9 coach Pendos?

[Kite159]

When Avanti refurbished the Pendos within the last few years, on the 11 coach sets they changed one of the first class coaches to become standard class (coach G) to give 8 coaches of standard class & 3 coaches of First Class seating (even if some of the First Class can now classed as Standard Premium) (with 3 coaches fully unreserved). However, with the 9 coach units the ratio is 6 coaches of standard class to 3 coaches of First Class with only 1 coach fully unreserved (coach C which has reduced seating compared to the other coaches).

An idea which came up in a group chat was for Avanti to change coach H on the 9 coach Pendos to become standard class, labelling it as coach G and either having it as fully unreserved or having the ability to have more reservations (considering coach 'G' will exist on both 9 & 11 coach sets). Reducing 1st class to just 2 coaches giving a better balance in line with the 807s. So would this be a good idea, just to create more standard class seats when a 9 coach Pendo rocks up on a busy service where first class & standard premium is carrying mostly fresh air? [especially on weekends]

 

[Yorkshire09876]

If they were going to do that they would have done it when they refurbished the interiors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Standard Premium doesn't mostly carry fresh air - it's quite popular now. Not unusual for there to be no walk up space available.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Standard Premium doesn't mostly carry fresh air - it's quite popular now. Not unusual for there to be no walk up space available.

When coach G on the 11 coach trains was changed from First Class seating to Standard Class seating the 46 First Class seats were replaced by 74 Standard Class seats. Changing coach H from First Class seating to Standard Class seating would replace 44 First Class seats with around 74 Standard Class seats which is a two thirds increase in the number of fare paying passengers for whom seats can be provided.

To make it financially worthwhile for coach H to continue to have First Class seating the seats need to be filled with passengers paying at least two thirds more than the Standard Class fares. If this cannot be done it would be financially better to replace the First Class seating with Standard Class seating as was done for coach G on the 11 coach trains.

I assume the reason for Standard Premium is Avanti cannot sell enough First Class fares to fill the 44 seats in coach H as well as the 37 seats in coach J and the 18 seats in coach K. Otherwise Avanti would sell all the seats in coach H for First Class fares.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Absolutely not.

To be honest, I’m already annoyed that we went from having four coaches of First Class to two, and to JUST the tiny Coach K on weekends. The prices are way too high to be crammed in next to someone else.

a 9 coach Pendo rocks up on a busy service where first class & standard premium is carrying mostly fresh air? [especially on weekends]

Can I ask how often in the past year you’ve been in an empty first class carriage on weekends? Because we’re all crammed into K like sardines on weekends normally.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Absolutely not.

To be honest, I’m already annoyed that we went from having four coaches of First Class to two, and to JUST the tiny Coach K on weekends. The prices are way too high to be crammed in next to someone else.

The only point of First Class seating is to make as much additional money as possible compared to use of the same space for Standard Class seating to reduce the overall taxpayer subsidy for passenger train services. Unless all the First Class seating is close to being filled with passengers paying First Class fares there is no point in having it. It would be better to replace some or all of it with a far greater number of Standard Class seats.

 

[Falcon1200]

3 coaches of First Class seating

3 coaches of First Class

I coach (K) of First Class is really only half a coach thanks to the cab and galley also being in that vehicle, and another as has been mentioned is Standard Premium. First Class on suitable train services (a small proportion of the total nowadays) gives passengers the option of paying more for a higher level of service, just as on aircraft or when buying a car.

 

[321362]

Should? Yes. Will? No.

First Class passengers will always take priority because they're the ones bringing in more money.

 

[hexagon789]

They've already reduced the amount of First Class on Pendolinos.

Virgin starred it with reducing the 9s from 4 to 3 cars; Avanti then did it in two ways - reducing the 11s to 3-cars to match the 9s, and introducing Standard Premium.

Imagine if we had the original fleet of 8s with a 50/50 split of First to Standard still!

I think the present arrangement suits demand, and as we've seen the Standard Premium to First ratio can be quite readily flexed to suit if needed.

 

[TheGrew]

It's classic yield management, and if there are enough people like me who look at an overcrowded standard class and opt for standard premium (and previously first when I could seatfrog in for £35), it will continue to be sold. The 'correct' course of action would be to have ensured all Pendolinos were 11 cars, but we are where we are.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's classic yield management, and if there are enough people like me who look at an overcrowded standard class and opt for standard premium (and previously first when I could seatfrog in for £35), it will continue to be sold. The 'correct' course of action would be to have ensured all Pendolinos were 11 cars, but we are where we are.

With Virgin Trains (and Avanti until SP was brought in), Seatfrog bids for any First Class journey would start at £12. I did many a bargain Glasgow - London upgrade. What a time that was. £12, four carriages of First, great menu options. Now even Standard Premium is miles more than that, First gets nothing but tiny Coach K on a weekend, and the menu is largely cold vegetarian options!

 

[Bletchleyite]

With Virgin Trains (and Avanti until SP was brought in), Seatfrog bids for any First Class journey would start at £12. I did many a bargain Glasgow - London upgrade. What a time that was. £12, four carriages of First, great menu options. Now even Standard Premium is miles more than that, First gets nothing but tiny Coach K on a weekend, and the menu is largely cold vegetarian options!

The thing is, that's not sustainable. Standard demand is high, and a First seat takes about half as much space as Standard again, which means the fares need to on average be 50-60% higher or it's not worth having it from a commercial perspective.

 

[Falcon1200]

Standard demand is high, and a First seat takes about half as much space as Standard again, which means the fares need to on average be 50-60% higher or it's not worth having it from a commercial perspective.

But only if Standard demand exceeds Standard capacity on any given train, and then only if that excess demand is sufficient to generate more revenue than that from using the space for First Class seating?

 

[Yorkshire09876]

the fares need to on average be 50-60% higher or it's not worth having it from a commercial perspective.

It'll be more than that when the catering (and associated staff) is taken into account.

 

[Topological]

If there was no Standard Premium then 2 carriages of first (1 + K) would be fine. However, if there is going to be standard premium then we are already at 1+K on a 9-car.

 

[Harpo]

The thing is, that's not sustainable. Standard demand is high, and a First seat takes about half as much space as Standard again, which means the fares need to on average be 50-60% higher or it's not worth having it from a commercial perspective.

That starts with the premise that you already have a standard class customer to upgrade, which might not necessarily be the case. In reverse, the absence of FC does not guarantee that an FC customer will become a standard class customer. Add-in the mantra that I was taught in my railway training that it costs 7-10 times more to get a new customer than to keep one that you already have.

There’s no simple size-of-seats/fare look-up chart for this.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

it costs 7-10 times more to get a new customer than to keep one that you already have.

That thinking used to apply to most retail situations, but seems to be widely ignored these days. E.g. the cheapest phone contracts and insurance policies only being available to new customers, while existing ones are charged more. I'm sure I'm not the only one who moves car insurer nearly every year!

 

[Zomboid]

That thinking used to apply to most retail situations, but seems to be widely ignored these days. E.g. the cheapest phone contracts and insurance policies only being available to new customers, while existing ones are charged more. I'm sure I'm not the only one who moves car insurer nearly every year!

Different marketplace though. Who you're insured with makes no difference to your journey and only actually matters in the event of making a claim (which shouldn't be that frequent).

Travel itself is another matter as there are pros and cons that go beyond the cost which affect every trip.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Different marketplace though. Who you're insured with makes no difference to your journey and only actually matters in the event of making a claim (which shouldn't be that frequent).

Travel itself is another matter as there are pros and cons that go beyond the cost which affect every trip.

The basic concept is the same though - keeping your existing customers is normally less work / cost than attracting new ones.

 

[Russel]

All the 9 cars being made up to 11 would be a better idea, but that ship has sailed.