Advice on short fare prosecution letter:

[AlterEgo]

Sorry to piggy back here, but let's say the person in question, got stopped and issued a fine, but offered up a made up name and address. Then received the same email as the this other gentleman here.

Would your advice be the same? Considering the email has the name of the interested party, and a fine was issued which was ignored/tossed away with a fake address and name.

They didn't identify the traveller, so cannot reasonably bring a prosecution.

 

[pittabread]

They didn't identify the traveller, so cannot reasonably bring a prosecution.

Sorry if this seems silly, but how did they not identify the traveller if they sent an email with the travellers name on it? Especially since the traveller gave a fake name a month or so ago when asked for details for the fine.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry if this seems silly, but how did they not identify the traveller if they sent an email with the travellers name on it? Especially since the traveller gave a fake name a month or so ago when asked for details for the fine.

They've identified the purchaser of the tickets, not the traveller.

 

[pittabread]

They've identified the purchaser of the tickets, not the traveller.

I see. I knew the identified it through the app or the payment source.

So they can't confirm anything unless they launch a unlikely costly investigation where they pay some investigation firm?

So can they escalate it with the purchaser, and force the purchaser into a civil case? Or is that beyond the legal system?

 

[AlterEgo]

I see. I knew the identified it through the app or the payment source.

So they can't confirm anything unless they launch a unlikely costly investigation where they pay some investigation firm?

In some fantasy world yes, perhaps. But these people are two things: incompetent, and busy. They aren't going to do that.

So can they escalate it with the purchaser, and force the purchaser into a civil case? Or is that beyond the legal system?

The purchaser isn't liable because the offence is committed by the person travelling who is not necessarily the same person. They could try a civil case against you where proof is only on balance of probabilities, but if they do they can only claim their actual losses and very minimal costs. This is preferable to settling out of court in many respects because if you settle out of court they charge you Anytime fares for every occurrence, which enriched them and which a civil court woild be unlikely to entertain. Also if you settle a county (civil) court claim eithin 28 days of judgement no record will be kept against you.

 

[pittabread]

In some fantasy world yes, perhaps. But these people are two things: incompetent, and busy. They aren't going to do that.


The purchaser isn't liable because the offence is committed by the person travelling who is not necessarily the same person. They could try a civil case against you where proof is only on balance of probabilities, but if they do they can only claim their actual losses and very minimal costs. This is preferable to settling out of court in many respects because if you settle out of court they charge you Anytime fares for every occurrence, which enriched them and which a civil court woild be unlikely to entertain. Also if you settle a county (civil) court claim eithin 28 days of judgement no record will be kept against you.

The big question for me and I'm sure lots of others is the fraud ruling on the DBS.

That is career/life destroying for some of us. Based on that being the most important aspect ( the criminal record ), and the fact theoretically someone did kind of commit fraud by giving a wrong name and address what would you recommend.

 

[AlterEgo]

The big question for me and I'm sure lots of others is the fraud ruling on the DBS.

That is career/life destroying for some of us. Based on that being the most important aspect ( the criminal record ), and the fact theoretically someone did kind of commit fraud by giving a wrong name and address what would you recommend.

Train companies don't usually prosecute for fraud, which requires a high bar of evidence, a lot of time and expertise, and in any case the offending is covered by specific railway related legislation anyway. In the realm of things that basically never happen, so to speak.

 

[ST999]

Train companies don't usually prosecute for fraud, which requires a high bar of evidence, a lot of time and expertise, and in any case the offending is covered by specific railway related legislation anyway. In the realm of things that basically never happen, so to speak.

Hi jumping back in - would the repeated short journey purchases and wrong railcard for the extensive amount of time i.e. 2 years be covered by the specific railway related legislation or could that be the fraud act 2006.

 

[John R]

Hi jumping back in - would the repeated short journey purchases and wrong railcard for the extensive amount of time i.e. 2 years be covered by the specific railway related legislation or could that be the fraud act 2006.

To repeat what’s been said, we don’t ever see the rail companies use the Fraud Act, even for egregious cases of fare evasion.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi jumping back in - would the repeated short journey purchases and wrong railcard for the extensive amount of time i.e. 2 years be covered by the specific railway related legislation or could that be the fraud act 2006.

In practice, the railway only prosecutes in the magistrate's court, which limits the prosecution window to six months, and the offences to the railway byelaws and Regulation of Railways Act. They could pursue fraud through the crown court - but they don't.

The legal power that the railways are using to follow up fare dodging older than six months is the threat of taking you to the civil courts. As the name suggests, being taken to the civil courts (the county court and what used to be called the small claims court) doesn't give you a criminal record: neither does it go into the DBS process. But that doesn't mean that it's nothing to worry about in that if you are taken to the civil courts and lose you will still have to pay up.

 

[pittabread]

Train companies don't usually prosecute for fraud, which requires a high bar of evidence, a lot of time and expertise, and in any case the offending is covered by specific railway related legislation anyway. In the realm of things that basically never happen, so to speak.

I see that's a relief.

One last question. Let's say theoretically someone did give fake details and address, considering they have have the current details on you ( payment details and trainline account), would or be safe to ignore everything all together or should the person in trouble contact the IRCAS, give a good story/reason on why they used that address and just pay it?

 

[JBuchananGB]

The best advice to ST999's acquaintance is not to respond to LNR's letter, and to cease and desist from fare evasion. Some TOCs have travelling enforcement teams who use analysis of frequent offenders' travel patterns and then go out to intercept them to verify that they have the actual traveller committing the offence. Then things get really serious.

 

[Trainman40083]

The best advice to ST999's acquaintance is not to respond to LNR's letter, and to cease and desist from fare evasion. Some TOCs have travelling enforcement teams who use analysis of frequent offenders' travel patterns and then go out to intercept them to verify that they have the actual traveller committing the offence. Then things get really serious.

Indeed that seems common on TfL and SWR.

 

[pittabread]

The best advice to ST999's acquaintance is not to respond to LNR's letter, and to cease and desist from fare evasion. Some TOCs have travelling enforcement teams who use analysis of frequent offenders' travel patterns and then go out to intercept them to verify that they have the actual traveller committing the offence. Then things get really serious.

My situation is similar but has some different info.

Of course after getting an email like that you'd have to be crazy to even think of doing something so silly again.

In my theoretical case, I catch the train every two or three weeks, and I save a couple of quid each time.

Digital Fraud team - England

Hi there, I made a post on Reddit about this and I got sent here, as apparently this is the holy grail of all Rail information. Long story short, I messed up. I used a rail card with the Trainline app - although I didn't have one - and when the inspector asked for details to fine me, I provided...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Kite159]

...

The best advice to ST999's acquaintance is not to respond to LNR's letter, and to cease and desist from fare evasion. Some TOCs have travelling enforcement teams who use analysis of frequent offenders' travel patterns and then go out to intercept them to verify that they have the actual traveller committing the offence. Then things get really serious.

Especially if it's a known short fare hotspot where they can deploy staff to check tickets of genuine passengers (and giving holders of physical tickets some sort of token or slip) with the big station having the main enforcement team checking tickets and anybody with a ticket from that hotspot which hasn't been scanned or the customer not carrying the slip can be challenged further. And if the OP's 'friend' details are already on the database, it's all they will need.

Sadly, some people on this forum think the only punishment for short faring/travelling without a railcard should be to pay the difference to what they should have paid in the first place...