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Alighting short on Advance Single
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RailUK Forums
Thanks for the very quick response! Having seen stories on this Forum of people handed Penalty Fares and worse in apparently similar circumstances, I wonder if this guidance has been published anywhere? If not, I might decide whether or not to "run the gauntlet" according to the weather on the day, and the prospect of a Mancunian soaking on the 10 minute walk back along Whitworth Street!
It’s frequently mentioned here, for example https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-to-start-journey-at-edb.291201/#post-7436854
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Joining a service
Hi - long time lurker, first time poster. I’ve been doing some research on the Market Harborough (MHR) > St Pancras (STP) fares, and have seen that it’s financially beneficial for me to travel MHR>Kettering (KET), then get off that service and board the stopping service into STP. However, for...
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Although starting/finishing short with an Advance ticket is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the policy of the Rail industry is that no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though it does seem Northern are quite picky about it unlike most other TOCs who seem not to care that much. Given that it'd just be to save about 10 minutes' walk I'm actually not sure I would do it in this case despite the above guidance.
Would the barriers (if there are such) at Deansgate let you through anyway? If there were no barriers I'd risk it. Though isn't there a 'Manchester termini' arrangement which treats them all interchangeably?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't actually know if it has ticket gates (if issued to Manchester Stations or Manchester Ctlz it would open them most likely if there are), but Northern's RPIs can be ruthless and do, based on previous posts in Disputes on here, seem to be particularly ruthless when it comes to "misuse" of Advances.
Mcr Warrior
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Don't think there are any barriers whatsoever at Deansgate. Just security/revenue staff, in high vis, near the overbridge, and also down the bottom of the ramp, quite near the ticket office window.
This one is an e-ticket which explicitly states Manchester Oxford Road instead of "Manchester Stations", and is the last leg of a split ticket journey from Aberdeen bought on the RailUK Forum ticketing site. Remarkably, it tells me that the price for this leg, with a Senior Railcard, is just £2.65, so a £50+ Penalty Fare for getting off less than 700 yards early would be a bit of a scunner!
Mcr Warrior
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Presume that's a £2.65 Advance Single (route "AP Northern Only") from Lancaster to Manchester Oxford Road with Senior Railcard discount applied. Booked train only, no break of journey. Think that's the cheapest possible tier from Lancaster to Manchester.
andy33gmail
Member
What if you bought a single *back* from where the advanced fare took you, to where you wanted to leave the station? 
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What if you bought a single *back* from where the advanced fare took you, to where you wanted to leave the station?
That used to be the suggestion, but these days it looks a bit like short faring so might not be recommended unless actually making the journey there and back.
I might be being paranoid, but I've heard so many stories about Northern RPIs being super picky about Advances that I wouldn't risk it to avoid a (not unpleasant, flat/downhill) ten minute walk. I've not heard the same stories about any other TOC aside from the muppet at Clapham Jn who wouldn't let someone go to M&S between trains because it's technically not on railway property, but I only heard that one once, whereas I've heard about Northern RPIs being picky about starting/ending short on Advances a number of times now. The trouble with internal guidelines is that they don't form part of the contract and thus the passenger has no sanction if staff don't stick to them - as anyone who's ever moaned about being done for speeding when within the usual 10% + 2mph guidance will attest
Looks like that would cost me £2.05, which takes the gloss off my £2.65 Lancaster to Manchester triumph, and apparently introduces a whole new level of peril with the possibility of being interviewed under caution and reported for investigation for short faring by trying to exit from the wrong platform! Manchester consolidating my view of it as a dystopian hell-hole......What if you bought a single *back* from where the advanced fare took you, to where you wanted to leave the station?
andy33gmail
Member
Not if you’re stubborn and actually travel there and back
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not if you’re stubborn and actually travel there and back
Another option is the Manchester "free bus" 1 which connects Oxford Road to Deansgate and is, er, free. Only in that direction unless you want to do a lap of the whole loop, though.
Unless it's a 6 car set I'd advise boarding further back than Deansgate on the way back anyway as the chance of a seat is much lower, so if the return half is from Oxford Road going there is probably prudent.
Thanks for the sound advice all round! Given that my objective is to transfer from train to tram, perhaps a nostalgic visit to check that The Salisbury is still standing at the foot of the Oxford Road steps, followed by a free bus ride to Deansgate/Castlefield, would be best.....
NorthWestRover
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The Salisbury is still there.
Deansgate has ticket checks and sometimes funny machines that bleep in a shrill way if your ticket is valid, but make a deeper buzz type sound if not. I share Bletchleyite's concerns.
If you're looking for a tram, anything that goes from Castlefield Deansgate will have called at St Peter's Square so go and get it from there (after the Salisbury).
Deansgate has ticket checks and sometimes funny machines that bleep in a shrill way if your ticket is valid, but make a deeper buzz type sound if not. I share Bletchleyite's concerns.
If you're looking for a tram, anything that goes from Castlefield Deansgate will have called at St Peter's Square so go and get it from there (after the Salisbury).
The Trafford Centre service starts from Castlefield.
NorthWestRover
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Oh does it? Apologies to OP as I didn't realise that.
At 4pm I think it's quite likely for there to be staff physically checking tickets. The way to do it is to approach at a brisk walk and just flash your phone/ticket at them while not stopping
I wouldn't attempt this with an advance ticket which is not technically valid at Deansgate though.
I've only done it on a paper rover, a Northern delay repay free ticket and an Interrail pass, as I preferred to avoid repeatedly spending 2 or more minutes "discussing" what these tickets are with the staff (which frequently happened on the way into the station).
I wouldn't attempt this with an advance ticket which is not technically valid at Deansgate though.
I've only done it on a paper rover, a Northern delay repay free ticket and an Interrail pass, as I preferred to avoid repeatedly spending 2 or more minutes "discussing" what these tickets are with the staff (which frequently happened on the way into the station).
Mcr Warrior
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Suppose this is another instance of finding out that a cheaply priced, booked train only, advance ticket, isn't necessarily quite as flexible as other ticket types, which do allow 'break of journey'.
NorthWalian
Member
It is a bit anti-consumer if someone is receiving “less” of a service
Thanks for your proactive concern for my consumer rights, but honestly, I'm not complaining, with a ticket price of £2.65 from Lancaster, a chance to see the remarkable architecture of Oxford Road Station, a pint in a Manchester landmark pub and a free bus back to Castlefield/Deansgate, all thanks to the excellent advice and suggestions here!
Ben Rhydding
Member
Who says they don`t? They`re in the public domain. They are available to passengers deciding whether or not to enter into the contract. Has a Court ever convicted a passenger who was following published "internal" guidelines? Are you saying that the railway, by publishing "internal" guidelines, could entice a passenger into breaking the rules and then prosecute on the basis that the "internal" guidelines don`t count?
Individual railway staff may have no knowledge of the internal guidelines. Some may not agree with them. But that doesn`t mean they`re not part of the contract.
Can anyone (without endangering their employment) point to where such guidelines have been made available to the public?
Ben Rhydding
Member
My copy was downloaded from National Rail Enquiries
As far as I am aware the guidlelines have not been made available to the public. What I said upthread is what appears in the internal industry guidance.
Ben Rhydding
Member
As I said upthread, my copy was downloaded from National Rail Enquiries. It is on a page entitled "Advance Tickets FAQs - Travelling". The wording is the same as quoted up thread. My download is dated 2021. I cannot find the same page on National Rail Enquiries today but the concession is clearly in the public domain.
Nobody has suggested that it has been withdrawn. But some forum members claim it cannot be relied on because it is intended for internal consumption only. If the railway publishes, or allows to be published, an easement in the passenger`s favour, that surely becomes part of the contract.
I have carried the aforementioned document on all rail journeys mainly for what it says about split tickets and missed connections. I`ve never alighted short on an advance ticket.
But I would feel safe if there was an advance fare to the alighting station at the same or lower price than to the ticketed one. That is the minimum safeguard that the concession appears to give. The wording arguably goes a lot further by requiring "clear evidence of intent" before the passenger can be penalised.
Nobody has suggested that it has been withdrawn. But some forum members claim it cannot be relied on because it is intended for internal consumption only. If the railway publishes, or allows to be published, an easement in the passenger`s favour, that surely becomes part of the contract.
I have carried the aforementioned document on all rail journeys mainly for what it says about split tickets and missed connections. I`ve never alighted short on an advance ticket.
But I would feel safe if there was an advance fare to the alighting station at the same or lower price than to the ticketed one. That is the minimum safeguard that the concession appears to give. The wording arguably goes a lot further by requiring "clear evidence of intent" before the passenger can be penalised.
I can't really see how the document can be part of the contract when it isn't published at the time the contract was formed i.e. the ticket purchased.
If the document isn't currently available from an official source how would you know it's still in force and hasn't been superceded?
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