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Extortionate season tickets £££

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styles

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Another thing that some other countries do better is the ability to write off the train fare to tax. For example, Liege to Brussels is about 100 km and the regular season ticket is EUR 3,064 per year (which is already quite cheap). But if the employer pays for it, it only costs EUR 2,451.
Good luck with that one. It was reported recently that HMRC have been investigating the potential impact of removing the ability to salary sacrifice pension contributions.

Can't see the Treasury gearing up to make season tickets salary sacrificeable.

About 10 years ago the government cracked down on lots of salary sacrifice arrangements. Used to be able to salary sacrifice gym memberships and all sorts.
 
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johncrossley

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When comparing with Germany, the D-Ticket is probably a more relevant comparison for most people as most commuters don't need to use IC, EC or ICE trains. That is a mere 58 EUR per month, giving unlimited travel on all regional and local transport nationwide. Austria has its "Climate ticket" at 1,300 EUR per year and that *does* include most long distance express trains.
 

styles

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When comparing with Germany, the D-Ticket is probably a more relevant comparison for most people as most commuters don't need to use IC, EC or ICE trains. That is a mere 58 EUR per month, giving unlimited travel on all regional and local transport nationwide. Austria has its "Climate ticket" at 1,300 EUR per year and that *does* include most long distance express trains.
I would swap out most of my driving for rail travel if such a ticket were offered. I'd make my money back on a 58 EUR regional trains pass in no time.
 

akm

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But it is not £6000 for a, ie one, 23-mile train ride - It is £6000 for, potentially (but obviously not in reality) for, also not a 23-mile train ride but a 46-mile round trip, on 365 days of the year. For someone working a 5-day week with 5 weeks Annual Leave per year, they would be travelling on 235 days. £6000 divided by 235 is 25.53, which does not seen an excessive, or indeed extortionate, daily price for 46 miles of rail travel, although £6000 is a lot to stump up in one go.
And not just that - unlimited use of all* trains, tubes, buses, trams, anywhere in London all the way out to zone 6, for a whole year.

It would be nice if posters saying "these prices are extortionate" would be kind enough to use their access to the Magic Book Of Righteous Prices and include what the correct prices are.

* exceptions apply
 

Mcr Warrior

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Season ticket prices in the south east are absolutely extortionate. An annual Hemel to London Z1-6 Travelcard is over £6,000. Over £6,000 for a 23-mile train ride. £6,000!
Doesn't the travelcard allow you to then travel additional mileage once you've done the 23 or so miles and arrived into London Euston? Having said that, the annual season from Hemel Hempstead just to London Terminals is still almost £5000.
 

styles

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Doesn't the travelcard allow you to then travel additional mileage once you've done the 23 or so miles and arrived into London Euston? Having said that, the annual season from Hemel Hempstead just to London Terminals is still almost £5000.
Yes. It's unlimited travel in all inner and outer London boroughs, plus some of the Home Counties, plus any stations between Hemel Hempstead and London on a valid route.

The zone 1-6 Travelcard on its own from TfL would be £3264, so an extra £1k on the season ticket to get the zones 1-6 included is a bargain (if you'll use them).
 

35B

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People are often, too often, making a lifestyle decision to live many miles away from where they work. This entails them paying eye watering sums for their travel but as the tickets are subsidised their lifestyle choice is also subsidised out of taxation and by taxpayers who couldn't even begin to conceive the commuter's lifestyle.
Personally I think that these subsidies should be withdrawn for commuters who live outside the metropolitan areas into which they travel
Excellent. Then the subsidy the railway enjoys for having my money up front can also disappear, and I'll also stop travelling as regularly. Which undermines the economics of the railway by removing core predictable demand - as we've seen since 2020.

I'm also not sure quite how you assess where the boundaries of this "subsidy" should fall. When I lived in Orpington and worked in London, was that a "lifestyle choice" undeserving of travel subsidy or was the reduction in housing cost as I moved further out of London just offset by the season ticket? And since I moved out to Grantham, but have travelled for work, should I be cross-examined on who's paying for my fare (and that has at times included seasons) to see whether I get a subsidy or not?

I'm also not sure what my "lifestyle" affords that is so spectacular as to justify that assessment. I've a professional job, live in a reasonable house where my lower mortgage balances the drastically increased travel costs, and by moving out of an area with very high prices, am adding to supply and reducing demand, making it marginally easier for people to afford to live there.
 

Tetchytyke

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Doesn't the travelcard allow you to then travel additional mileage once you've done the 23 or so miles and arrived into London Euston?

And not just that - unlimited use of all* trains, tubes, buses, trams, anywhere in London all the way out to zone 6, for a whole year.
Yes. When I had one I used it for the additional two miles or so from Euston to Angel or Barbican. Sometimes I used it on the bus from Angel to my office at City University too if it was raining. I was going to work and coming home again, I wasn’t riding round all day on the tube.

Yes you theoretically can use it all the way out to Orpington or wherever, but in reality you don’t. At least not regularly.

The zone 1-6 Travelcard on its own from TfL would be £3264, so an extra £1k on the season ticket to get the zones 1-6 included is a bargain (if you'll use them).
Of course the Hemel Travelcard includes the travel though the zones between Hemel and Euston, so you need to take that overlap into account when comparing prices. A Hemel to Harrow and Wealdstone season ticket is about £3,200, so it’s not quite such the bargain in that context- £3,200 for that season + £3,200 for the Travelcard is pretty much exactly what the annual season costs.

But if you needed to go to Euston, as I did, then the add-on made good financial sense.

But that Hemel to Harrow season ticket is £3,200 a year for 13 miles. £3,200! For 13 miles!
 

AlterEgo

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And not just that - unlimited use of all* trains, tubes, buses, trams, anywhere in London all the way out to zone 6, for a whole year.

It would be nice if posters saying "these prices are extortionate" would be kind enough to use their access to the Magic Book Of Righteous Prices and include what the correct prices are.

* exceptions apply
That is such a ridiculous objection. Rail tickets are often extortionate, and season tickets still so. People don't have to name a price to be able to object to its cost or its impact on or society.

The way tickets are priced and the way capacity is used in and out of the capital has real world implications which shape our country; tons of people's incomes vanishing into housing, transport costs, energy etc makes us a much less prosperous nation with lower levels of satisfaction and human flourishing than we deserve.

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You don’t think 50p per mile is extortionate? Really?
By way of comparison, my evil two ton Land Rover Defender will cost me about 22p a mile to drive.
 

JonathanH

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The way tickets are priced and the way capacity is used in and out of the capital has real world implications which shape our country; tons of people's incomes vanishing into housing, transport costs, energy etc makes us a much less prosperous nation with lower levels of satisfaction and human flourishing than we deserve.
If that money was spent on imported goods and foreign holidays, it would make us an even less prosperous nation. The transport costs don't currently meet the costs of providing that service so the shortfall would have to come from taxation.

Would incomes be less if they didn’t have to afford commuter travel?
 

Mcr Warrior

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By way of comparison, my evil two ton Land Rover Defender will cost me about 22p a mile to drive.
Think that's about right for just the fuel cost. Of course, you've got the cost of road tax, vehicle insurance and servicing on top before you go anywhere. And the outlay for acquiring the Landy in the first place. But these will be sunk costs, so the marginal cost of driving around will almost invariably appear to be less than by rail.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is that 22p a mile in fuel, or are you adding in depreciation, maintenance, insurance, tyres etc etc?

Not this again. Depreciation and maintenance are by and large fixed costs with modern long service intervals (particularly of EVs which don't require servicing in the same way), and insurance is not highly influenced by mileage unless you do absolutely loads. Fixed costs are analogous to a Railcard (or indeed a season ticket) - you pay them once and you get effectively unlimited use. It is not sensible to work out car use in this way.

The OP should probably include a small contribution to tyre wear and brake linings, but compared to fuel it is small.
 

styles

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By way of comparison, my evil two ton Land Rover Defender will cost me about 22p a mile to drive.
For what it's worth, I don't think rail always needs to be cheaper than driving anyway.

Plenty of people are happy to pay for trains instead of driving because they can get some work done, or not have to worry about finding somewhere to park (or indeed the cost of parking in central London!), or so the family can sit around a table and play card games instead of spending hours behind the wheel of a car, or so they can just relax and stare out of the window at the rolling hills.

I often pay a slight premium to travel by train because I find it a more enjoyable experience, better for the environment, and I can 'switch off' which I can't when driving.

I do however end up driving when the train option is tipped too far into the more expensive or complex journey category. I've got friends in mid Wales and from where I stay in Scotland it's 4 trains to get to them, about an extra hour and a half travel time, and about double the price. If it was the same price, I'd consider it, but the trade-off just doesn't stack for me. Even worse when there's two of us going down.
 

Bletchleyite

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For what it's worth, I don't think rail always needs to be cheaper than driving anyway.

I think it's fair to say that it probably does need to be comparable for leisure travel as the car is almost always a viable option, but the car is basically always a *worse* option when making a peak time journey to London (plus there are other costs like parking*) so the train is indeed probably the premium choice.

The other place the car becomes less viable is very long distance - few will be happy to drive London-Edinburgh, hence why LNER think they can command a premium price for that (as I've said a few times on that I don't think the same pricing approach** would work for London-Birmingham as that's perfectly viable by car - driving into Birmingham really isn't that bad).

* OK you might pay to park at the station, but a day's parking in central London will almost always be a lot more!
** The fare structure might, not that I like it, but the heavy price increases probably wouldn't. Nor even for Leeds - there's a reason LNER chose a longer distance journey for this trial!
 

thejuggler

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I'd like to see the workings of 22p a mile to run a Land Rover.

In about 2015 I did a full costing for a vehicle I owned for 5 years and about 50,000 miles. I bought it used at a year old and traded it. The whole life cost for a 1.6 petrol was 50p a mile.
 

SuspectUsual

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Which is about 1p a mile not a significant cost

Sorry, but that's rubbish.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Not this again. Depreciation and maintenance are by and large fixed costs with modern long service intervals (particularly of EVs which don't require servicing in the same way), and insurance is not highly influenced by mileage unless you do absolutely loads. Fixed costs are analogous to a Railcard (or indeed a season ticket) - you pay them once and you get effectively unlimited use. It is not sensible to work out car use in this way.

The OP should probably include a small contribution to tyre wear and brake linings, but compared to fuel it is small.

I disagree. These are big factors in the overall cost.
 

Snow1964

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What is hard to comprehend to outsiders / journalists is the wide inconsistency in prices.

There are journeys that are same distance, say 15 miles, on different routes around the country that are priced wildly differently.
 

35B

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I'd like to see the workings of 22p a mile to run a Land Rover.

In about 2015 I did a full costing for a vehicle I owned for 5 years and about 50,000 miles. I bought it used at a year old and traded it. The whole life cost for a 1.6 petrol was 50p a mile.
But when I decide to travel by car or train, my choice is about the direct cost - fuel and parking. Whole life costs simply aren't part of that calculation.
 

Watershed

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Sorry, but that's rubbish.

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I disagree. These are big factors in the overall cost.
In the overall cost, yes. But most households already have access to a car. Therefore, including the total cost of ownership is irrelevant because the decision to have a car is one they have already made.

The only choice they need to make is whether to use their car for a particular journey, or to take the train (or other public transport) instead.

In that context, the marginal cost of driving - made up of fuel and parking (plus a small amount for tyres and brakes) is the relevant consideration.
 

styles

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In the overall cost, yes. But most households already have access to a car. Therefore, including the total cost of ownership is irrelevant because the decision to have a car is one they have already made.
Possibly, though for many it could be the difference between owning one car or two. We recently went down to a single car household because I either work from home or commute by public transport now, and in the event both of us need a car at the same time, like two different trips away on a weekend, one of us can just grab a hire car.

That wouldn't be the case if the cost of commuting was much higher for me as I'd probably end up driving it.

Mind you, I'm likely to be taking on a London-based client soon and with them wanting 2 days a week on-site, I'll be weighing up:
  • Caledonian Sleeper south, evening train north - my preferred way to travel. But I'd want a bed for the night on the sleeper and this is £££ (£235-275 on the Flexipasses).
  • Evening train south, evening train north - even more time away from home, but the fare saving compared to the CS will be mostly wiped out by another night in a hotel.
  • Driving - cheaper at £70 return fuel plus some minor wear and tear, but this will be 7 hours each way where I can't sleep, do any billable work, read a book, etc.
  • Flying - contender for cheapest as I live near the airport then short train service to central. Also means I can spend just one night away from home instead of two. On the flipside, my environmental conscience doesn't like it.
  • Bus - actual cheapest, but no chance!
It'll be coming out of my company's pocket, so arguably saving on the corporation tax and potential dividends tax, but the price of the CS and many of the evening trains does make me think twice about driving or flying I'll be honest.
 
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SuspectUsual

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Possibly, though for many it could be the difference between owning one car or two

I was literally just about to say the same thing. WFH has taken us from a "two decent cars" household to a "one decent car and a cheap runabout" house, and that was only because the cheap runabout was essentially free as it we inherited it when an elderly aunt died
 

Bletchleyite

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I disagree. These are big factors in the overall cost.

If you have a Railcard would you account it per-journey? If so you are about the only person who would.

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In that context, the marginal cost of driving - made up of fuel and parking (plus a small amount for tyres and brakes) is the relevant consideration.

Indeed. Once one has made the decision to own a car, journeys are at marginal cost. Nobody with any sense accounts it on a per-mile basis, because not making a given journey doesn't give you that money back.
 

SuspectUsual

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If you have a Railcard would you account it per-journey? If so you are about the only person who would.

No, but when I make decisions I look at the total costs over a representative period of time. How else would you know if the railcard represented good value?
 

cactustwirly

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Sorry, but that's rubbish.

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I disagree. These are big factors in the overall cost.
Tyres last 20,000 - 30,000 miles. That's £0.0075 per mile, insurance is a very expensive £0.08 per mile.
I have a group 39E car and I'm a relatively young driver with higher than average insurance costs

So let's call it 30p per mile.
A good 20p cheaper than the train
 

Bletchleyite

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No, but when I make decisions I look at the total costs over a representative period of time. How else would you know if the railcard represented good value?

It represents good value if the money saved on fares exceeds its purchase price, which for most people is going to occur pretty quickly, in a lot of cases it will occur on the day of purchase. After that, who cares? Just enjoy the fact that train fares are a third cheaper.
 
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