Had problems taking pictures of the railways?

[alexdodds]

Do passengers get briefed on what to do in the event of a fire alarm etc?

What a load of red tape just to take some pictures on a railway station. Proof that the UK has gone bonkers. Even the guidelines do not require you to sign in but merely let the staff know of your presence. What's all the nonsense about you having your photo taken?

Theres no need to take the mick you know. How about you try a station like Liverpool Street or any other in London or infact any other Network Rail managed station yourself without asking. If you get challenged by staff and get told to leave then I wouldn't be surprised.

How about you even try Blackpool North. As I have said before at that station you cant access the platforms unless you see the supervisor first because the platform doors are locked.

 

[electra27000]

Theres no need to take the mick you know. How about you try a station like Liverpool Street or any other in London or infact any other Network Rail managed station yourself without asking. If you get challenged by staff and get told to leave then I wouldn't be surprised.

How about you even try Blackpool North. As I have said before at that station you cant access the platforms unless you see the supervisor first because the platform doors are locked.

I've taken images at many NWR (and TOC) managed stations, without letting staff know first, and rarely get challenged about it. The vast majority either ignore me - having noted that I'm just there to take images of trains - or check because someone in a control room has spotted me and is wondering what I'm doing.

As for Blackpool North, their reputation for being obstructive when it come to railway enthusiasts goes well before them...

 

[Snapper]

The thing is nearly every single person on a railway station has a camera in the form of a camera phone. Some take some very good pictures Cameras have never been so prolific. People use them all the time. However, the hapless trainspotter is singled out for this treatment? Time for those who make the decisions to think long and hard as to WHY they make people sign in etc. To me there is no logical reason for it.

There's always been those who insist that rules should never be made that affect them. The guidelines on photography are a classic example. The truth is that the railways have the power to restrict photography if they so choose and it would be a very foolish group of people who abuse the railways hospitality because they don't like or agree with like guidelines.

A lot of work has been done behind the scenes to ensure problems don't happen and many of the TOCs have formalised the rights of enthusiasts to take pictures by putting posters on their stations or publishing sections on their websites. This actually works in our favour when it comes to obstructive members of staff and jobsworths.

Because of all this the attitude towards photographers has settled down in recent years and its to be hoped that they stay that way. Kicking up a fuss when asked to follow the guidelines is a very good way of shooting ourselves in the foot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, there were incidents even then, but this kind of thing is getting more common.

No it isn't. Incidents of enthusiasts having problems taking pictures have declined markedly over the past few years. Journalists from the main enthusiast magazines who receive complaints and liaise with the TOCs and NR all agree on this.

 

[nedchester]

Theres no need to take the mick you know. How about you try a station like Liverpool Street or any other in London or infact any other Network Rail managed station yourself without asking. If you get challenged by staff and get told to leave then I wouldn't be surprised.

How about you even try Blackpool North. As I have said before at that station you cant access the platforms unless you see the supervisor first because the platform doors are locked.

Wasn't taking the mick out of you but appalled at the idea that you had to have your photograph taken, briefed on safety and ID checked to stand on a platform!!! Passengers do the same every day but don't need this and the enthusiast guidelines just state to let them know of your presence and that is just it.

 

[Snapper]

As a rule, passengers are only on a station for as long as it takes to catch their train, Enthusiasts are rather different, they may be there for hours. By signing in they acquire a different status to 'normal' passengers which includes an enhanced 'duty of care' by the TOC/NR - similar in vein to a contractor or anyone else who is an official visitor. This would include being covered by insurance.

 

[jon0844]

I accept this, but I am a commuter that has taken pictures of things (like the work being done at Finsbury Park, which is ongoing) and been told I need to sign in and get permission to take photos.

Now, I do agree that if I was to go there simply to take photos and not while waiting for my train, I'd sign in. If I was taking commercial photos I'd seek permission in advance of going there. However, the guidelines only state you need to inform someone - not request permission. Why should a station manager get to decide by what you look like, or what mood he or she is in? That's surely why there are guidelines?

Now, asking someone to keep away from a certain area or being strict with anyone that doesn't keep the guidelines (camera flash, tripod causing obstruction, abusing staff/public) is fine - but it seems that some staff simply hate enthusiasts and therefore get off on 'playing' with them.

Cameraphones now mean anyone can take photos. Tourists aren't stopped. If, as I travel on my train right now, decide to take a photo out of the window - should I have got permission? What if I take a photo of the seats in front of me?

Someone Tweeted to FCC only this morning about the state of the interior of a train. Should they be told off for taking a photo without seeking permission?

Or is it what you're taking a photo of? I take the camera out and take a picture of my wife next to a gateline, that's fine. I take a photo of the new gateline without my wife in the picture and I need permission due to the 'heightened security risk'. (Tip; terrorists, travel in a group and pretend to be confused tourists).

It isn't very well thought out is it?

 

[Chester025]

No it isn't. Incidents of enthusiasts having problems taking pictures have declined markedly over the past few years. Journalists from the main enthusiast magazines who receive complaints and liaise with the TOCs and NR all agree on this.

Nonsense! Back in nasty old British Rail days 'guidelines for enthusiasts' were none exsistant and people just got on with it. And how often did you/or do now hear of people complaining of problems back then? The answer is as rare as hens teeth. But admittedly not totally unheard of.

 

[Jobsworth]

I had 2 steam charters at my station yesterday. Unfortunately, due to the length of one of them, the loco was literally at the end of the platform making close up front end photography impossible within the legal boundaries. Left unsupervised, photographers were descending the ramps onto the ballast which has to be a definite 'NO'.

It was a pity as so many people had turned out for just a little enjoyment of their hobby. Not wishing to spoil everyone's fun, I did allow a number of people to walk down the ramp one at a time under supervision. Most were grateful and said so. One or two just took it for granted and gave me a look of contempt. Suppose you can't please everyone.

Excessive numbers on an adjacent platform caused me a delay, which has to be accounted for. So many people were hanging over the edge of a very narrow platform that the driver decided it was unsafe to be dispatched. Again, one or two thought it was ok to be down on the ballast and had to be dealt with by BTP.

 

[Snapper]

Nonsense! Back in nasty old British Rail days 'guidelines for enthusiasts' were none exsistant and people just got on with it. And how often did you/or do now hear of people complaining of problems back then? The answer is as rare as hens teeth. But admittedly not totally unheard of.

There were a number of issues back in BR days. The biggest difference then was that far more people own cameras nowadays and the railways weren't as regulated by security bodies as the way they are now.

But what BR did doesn't really matter. BR hasn't existed for over 16 years and it's not an argument that will wash in 2011.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

The stupidity is that at Finsbury Park, where I was told to sign-in for taking a photo of the gateline while waiting to change train, they happily let a train continue when someone had come off, in a panic, and said to staff that a lady was possibly carrying a bomb (clutching a rucksack and allegedly praying over and over). Despite this person telling more than one member of staff, they dispatched it and - as he continued to say what he saw - opted to get BTP to meet the train at King's Cross.

BTP did then attend, located the woman and it was shown to be a false alarm - but for Goodness sake... one minute they're going after people taking a photo and talking up the 'heightened security risk' and the next they're allowing a train to head into King's Cross with someone on board who could have been planning to blow the train up! Oh yes, the staff are REALLY taking security seriously, not.

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/mobile/new...alert_on_first_capital_connect_train_1_928312

+1 jon, I had been to Finsbury Park myself twice, the first time, someone came over and told me that I was over the yellow line, when I clearly wasn't and aggressively warned me that if it happened again, we were off the station.

The second time I went, a member of staff came over and told me to take down mt tripod, which was clearly nowhere even close to the edge of the station because of the wind that the passing trains were sent it onto the tracks. If he had been watching, i had had it up for two hours beforehand and it hadn't blown over. Then a woman tried to tell me that I was a security risk and I was not allowed to take photos but if I am a security risk, why are you allowing trains to come near the station?

You be the judge yourself; was I over the yellow line the first time?

[youtube]eVkr8h5t1k4[/youtube]

Was my tripod well out of the way the second time? Start this video at 1:32 because the first set of clips was taken without the tripod

[youtube]0jx5-UJtABY[/youtube]

 

[Chester025]

There were a number of issues back in BR days. The biggest difference then was that far more people own cameras nowadays and the railways weren't as regulated by security bodies as the way they are now.

What issues were their back then then?

How does the argument that more people have cameras now stand anyway? Just because more people are taking photographs doesn't mean they need to be 'regulated'.

But what BR did doesn't really matter. BR hasn't existed for over 16 years and it's not an argument that will wash in 2011.

What British Rail used to do isn't really the point, the point was back then there wasn't this farce with taking photographs people just got on with it.

 

[Snapper]

Both points ignore what members of rail staff have pointed ou regarding nuisance and safety. In BR days it was acceptable for people with cameras to wander all over the place. Times change (as do the speed and noise of trains) - and there's no point in complaining about it.

The railways are perfectly entitled to impose these restrictions.

 

[GB]

What issues were their back then then?

How does the argument that more people have cameras now stand anyway? Just because more people are taking photographs doesn't mean they need to be 'regulated'.



What British Rail used to do isn't really the point, the point was back then there wasn't this farce with taking photographs people just got on with it.

Hold on, wasn't it you that brought up the BR issue in the first place and I think it stands to reason that if more and more people are taking up the hobby the more chance there is (rightly or wrongly) of issues arising.

 

[scotsman]

Sounds way better than one of my previous visits, where a friend and myself was threatened with the BTP if we didn't leave the station - this was 2004, though...

Stand your ground - if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to be afraid of/

 

[Aictos]

As a rule, passengers are only on a station for as long as it takes to catch their train, Enthusiasts are rather different, they may be there for hours. By signing in they acquire a different status to 'normal' passengers which includes an enhanced 'duty of care' by the TOC/NR - similar in vein to a contractor or anyone else who is an official visitor. This would include being covered by insurance.

Your posts on this has been very informative indeed I've found them to be very useful - I can remember Jim Morgan when he was MD of First Capital Connect I asked him via the staff feedback option what could be done to improve relations between railway staff and photographers like yourself, as a result not only was a staff brief issued very shortly afterwards but also had a poster published to go up on FCC platforms.

I won't say this has stopped the number of times someone has been told they can't take photos of trains as it's a security risk but least it has led to a better understanding of the vital relationship that photographers such as yourself and the TOCs now enjoy.

I as a example might be at Inverness for a few hours, therefore it's only right that I sign in and lets staff know who I am and what I'm doing - in return the TOC offers a enhanced chain of care such as advising where the fire evacuation point is should a fire be detected and to ensure I stay behind the yellow lines at all times.

 

[Chester025]

Both points ignore what members of rail staff have pointed ou regarding nuisance and safety. In BR days it was acceptable for people with cameras to wander all over the place. Times change (as do the speed and noise of trains) - and there's no point in complaining about it.

The railways are perfectly entitled to impose these restrictions.

And why can't people take responsibilty for their own actions? Oh wait, I'm talking in the past here aren't I. :cry:

 

[passmore]

Both points ignore what members of rail staff have pointed ou regarding nuisance and safety. In BR days it was acceptable for people with cameras to wander all over the place. Times change (as do the speed and noise of trains) - and there's no point in complaining about it.

The railways are perfectly entitled to impose these restrictions.

No-one is saying they aren't, but their application in the circumstances documented above is nothing short of farcical.

And I hardly think these rules were brought in because of 'nuisance' photographers, rather more because the staff in question at the station are more worried about health & safety and possible litigation consequences should someone accidentally trip or fall down at a station. (I want to make it absolutely clear that the previous sentence is a personal supposition of mine as to why some staff choose to act the way they do). The lack of the need to teach personal responsibility these days and the need to place litigation before everything else is part of the problem why we have so much of this draconian bureaucracy.

There is every point in complaining about it, it's a fundamental right of any passenger/photographer where they have felt to be mistreated or other inappropriate behavior by a member of station staff. If a member of station staff asks me to 'sign in' politely and courteously, I will question the staff member as to the need to but will obey anyway. If another staff member does so in an aggressive manner, irrespective of the rule, I am in my rights to complain.

 

[HST Power]

Went down to Newcastle the other day and did some photography. They let me on the Platform for free and said they were more than happy to welcome train spotters! Furthermore, I was able to photograph on the T&W Metro with no problems at all.

 

[alexdodds]

Went down to Newcastle the other day and did some photography. They let me on the Platform for free and said they were more than happy to welcome train spotters! Furthermore, I was able to photograph on the T&W Metro with no problems at all.

Newcastle is always a nice station and yes you can video the Metro without a problem by standing on Platform 6/8 and watching them go across the Queen Elizabeth II bridge.

 

[HST Power]

Newcastle is always a nice station and yes you can video the Metro without a problem by standing on Platform 6/8 and watching them go across the Queen Elizabeth II bridge.

I'm going to put my photos up in the Photography section if you'd like a look.

 

[alexdodds]

I'm going to put my photos up in the Photography section if you'd like a look.

Yep go ahead.

 

[142094]

Furthermore, I was able to photograph on the T&W Metro with no problems at all.

Don't worry - someone will have been watching you on CCTV!

As always I'd advise anyone taking pictures on the Metro to have permission as people have been asked to leave before for taking pictures.

 

[HST Power]

Don't worry - someone will have been watching you on CCTV!

As always I'd advise anyone taking pictures on the Metro to have permission as people have been asked to leave before for taking pictures.

So that's why the BTP pulled up and taisered me....

I asked for permission beforehand, as always. Better safe than sorry!

 

[alexdodds]

Don't worry - someone will have been watching you on CCTV!

As always I'd advise anyone taking pictures on the Metro to have permission as people have been asked to leave before for taking pictures.

Or the solution to that is don't use a camcorder or digital camera. Just use an Ipod Touch 4th gen. the lens on it is very small but produces great results and its very handy for been very sneaky.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Or the solution to that is don't use a camcorder or digital camera. Just use an Ipod Touch 4th gen. the lens on it is very small but produces great results and its very handy for been very sneaky.

Or just follow the rules? If you get chucked out trying to get around them, don't come on here complaining about it.

 

[alexdodds]

Or just follow the rules? If you get chucked out trying to get around them, don't come on here complaining about it.

What do you know. have you been on the system.

A lot of enthusiasts who live in Tyne and Wear dont bother asking so why should I. Why should we not be allowed to film when we are been filmed all the time.

 

[valenta]

Ok you win again theres me minus 1000 points.

To tell you the truth there is nothing wrong with the policy. Its just you have to send an e-mail with loads of detail then wait 2 weeks. Whereas I would prefer just to download a simple application form, fill it in, send it off and then be issued with a sort of photography permit. Of course a rule if this happerned would be that these enthusiasts would probably have to sign in at the control room first. Again no problem with that since I'm used to signing in and out.

All they just need to change is the process of getting permission to photo/video the metro and that's it.

Indeed a more efficient system is required whereby people can take videos/pictures without having to go through several steps to have permission.

 

[passmore]

Or just follow the rules? If you get chucked out trying to get around them, don't come on here complaining about it.

If I get asked to leave politely by a member of staff, I will do so. If I get 'chucked out' without an explanation, I am in my rights to complain.

Why do station staff think that all photographers are deliberately ignorant of the rules just so they can start threads such as these?

 

[Aictos]

If I get asked to leave politely by a member of staff, I will do so. If I get 'chucked out' without an explanation, I am in my rights to complain.

Why do station staff think that all photographers are deliberately ignorant of the rules just so they can start threads such as these?

Wait just a minute, not all station staff think like that indeed it's the minority who act in the role as jobsworths much like it's the minority of photographers who think just because they want "that" photo of 60163 it gives them carte blanch to go trackside without permission and endanger themselves just so they can take that perfect photo.

I can't understand why it's so hard for both parties to follow the guidelines, if anything some really ought to read the posts by Snapper on this subject as they present a educated view on the subject.

 

[passmore]

Wait just a minute, not all station staff think like that indeed it's the minority who act in the role as jobsworths much like it's the minority of photographers who think just because they want "that" photo of 60163 it gives them carte blanch to go trackside without permission and endanger themselves just so they can take that perfect photo.

I can't understand why it's so hard for both parties to follow the guidelines, if anything some really ought to read the posts by Snapper on this subject as they present a educated view on the subject.

I'm glad to hear that, as I said in the response above my latest one, it was only a personal supposition.

I completely agree with you that there is that minority which exist who are troublemakers, but I have read the posters posts and I fail to see how they are 'educated'. Telling people they cannot complain because they were ignorant of the rules is hardly 'educated', is it? As I said, I had some friends who were on Crewe who knew nothing about 'signing in', yet they behaved themselves and were respectful of other passengers. Is that a reason why people should be ejected?