brad465
Veteran Member
This is why I think this sort of scheme should replace fuel duty and be rolled out for all vehicles. Even if the rate is still cheaper than fuel duty, the common perception will be the opposite.
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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion
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R
RailUK Forums
I agree.
I actually think that road pricing per mile (and even time of use) is the way forward, but it has to be set at a level which replaces the 'lost' duty from sales of petrochemical fuels and importantly, reflects the priorities of government. To me this would mean a removal of road fund licence and a large difference between pence per mile rates between a BEV and an ICE.
It is fair for example, that people who can afford a brand new car are effectively subsidised to the tune of £3570 by a government EV grant?
Or would that grant be better placed by subsidising a few pence per mile off any road pricing scheme for BEVs, both new and used?
I would be surprised if a slight differential in per mile road pricing between rural and urban areas led to a mass shift from urban to rural residency.
I live suburban because my partner needs to work urban. Given the chance, I would live rural. The cost per mile of getting into Edinburgh would account for maybe 1% of my decision-making.
For what it's worth though, I support the notion of a bus taking 20 people being better than 20 people driving single occupancy cars to work. The question is where does the balance sit, and if you can tip the balance, happy days.
Snow1964
Established Member
Not just duties on petrol and diesel. To some extent there are taxes/duties on electricity too (even if the have other names such as levy)
EV drivers could face new pay per mile tax in Budget
The BBC understands there have been "conversations" within government about the possibility of a new levy on EVs.www.bbc.co.uk
Looks like the odometer method is coming to EVs and hybrids. I don’t get why they need the need this estimate upfront and credits thing though.
Renewables Obligation 3.2p per unit
Feed in tariff (covers contracts started pre 2019) 0.7p per unit
Energy company Obligation (funds insulation) 0.87p ?
Assistance for areas with high distribution cost (mainly Highlands)
Warm home levy
VAT
etc
brad465
Veteran Member
There is speculation that quite a few of those levies are being scrapped in the budget, especially VAT and the renewables obligation.
And you've forgotten CFD subsidy and the additional subsidy baked into balancing and network costs. Not to mention carbon pricing that ends up in wholesale costs etc etc. Electricity is highly taxed, but it's mostly disguised as a ways of paying for decarbonisation.
But there's an incentive to buy a more fuel efficient car and also to drive it more efficiently, as there's not a literal per mile fee.
For someone who can charge at home at 6.5 or 7p, and has a lightweight EV that can do 4-5 miles per kWh, 2 or 3p per mile isn't going to be too much of a hardship in real terms, but at around 1.5-2p per mile for the electricity, and maybe 3p added on, that's quite a premium - it more than doubles the cost!
For those who have to use a public charger, it becomes a lower percentage but now means it has the potential to become more expensive - or at least comparable - than a super efficient petrol car or hybrid - which means people may not see the point in switching. Already people are like that now, without a per mile charge, even though the ongoing running costs are still going to be lower on an EV.
And, as I've said before, there needs to be secure way to measure the mileage.
GusB
Established Member
The YouTube channel formerly known as the Fully Charged Show (now Everything Electric Cars) has a preview of the forthcoming new Twingo:
I'd have one if I could afford it!
I'd have one if I could afford it!
Great to see that in a few years time, there are going to be some extremely good cars for under £10k on the second hand market (if not sooner). Nice to see a similar clip design to the Dacia Spring, which allows you to customise the interior (and boot) with clips, lights, holders and more.
It also means that young people now have first car options for EVs, and the funky look and customisation will be most appealing (and despite the low cost, this car is packed with features that one could have only dreamt of years ago on a basic A-segment car).
The Dacia Spring is a nice car (perfect for city driving) but was quite cramped and doesn't have the movable seats like the Twingo where you can take people in relative comfort or do the big weekly shop the next when on your own. The 0-30 time also means it's ideal for cities and you're not going to get caught out when pulling out from a side road or onto a busy roundabout.
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Sun Chariot
Established Member
Having seen a swathe of new blue cameras getting installed along the eastern segment of the M27 motirway, I would not be at all surprised if we find - in the not too distant future - a "per mile" levy structure on all propulsion-types.
Until announced it's hard to discuss or get outrages. I think the idea is flawed and possibly unworkable if all vehicles need extra hardware fitted (I'm not sure checking at MOT or service times and then raising a bill in one go would fly) so would want to wait and see what any proposals are.
Ted633
Member
- Joined
- 15 Mar 2018
- Messages
- 571
Probably because nothing has been confirmed yet. It’s also against EVs, which the right wing press will probably quite like!
A pay per mile scheme is going to be needed in some form. Something needs to replace fuel duty (~£25 billion)
Look on car forums and social media and the anti EV lot have already begun replying to most posts with 'enjoy your per mile charging' so word has spread at an Incredible rate. You'd be excused for believing it's already been announced and has a start date and confirmed price already!
I'm happy to wait and see.
renegademaster
Established Member
If their isn't some pay per mile on petrols too it will kill any incentive to buy EVs for anyone who lives somewhere they can't charge at home , since they already getting ripped off enough in charging fees
FinsburyPark
Member
I read that a high percentage of new EVs are leased via employer salary saxrifice schemes.
My own employer has it as part of its salary sacrifice scheme and some colleagues have taken it up.
The company Octopus mentioned the high percentage in one of its advertising emails for the EV leases.
This shows a key problem. EVs are not cheap to purchase outright compared to internal combustion engine cars.
Even older EVs like the Nissan Leaf hold thier value far much more than ICE cars of similar milages and reg plate years.
If done as a longer term project, things will even out over time.
My own employer has it as part of its salary sacrifice scheme and some colleagues have taken it up.
The company Octopus mentioned the high percentage in one of its advertising emails for the EV leases.
This shows a key problem. EVs are not cheap to purchase outright compared to internal combustion engine cars.
Even older EVs like the Nissan Leaf hold thier value far much more than ICE cars of similar milages and reg plate years.
If done as a longer term project, things will even out over time.
EVs have less things to go wrong, so it's quite likely many cars will be 'safe bets' if purchased when 5+ years old. Not only that but you can't really thrash an EV like an ICE car, so it's less likely you'll get a car that someone has abused (and potentially damaged through lack of TLC). Of course you could damage the tyres and suspension, but those things are easily checked.
My point being that someone who might not want to buy a second hand ICE car, and thus tends to lease or buy a new car on PCP, might actually feel more comfortable with an older, and lot cheaper, EV. To me, there seems to be a lot less risk of being sold a lemon.
The batteries are likely still going to be almost like new unless they've been used as taxis and done 200,000 miles or something (and even those are often found to still have good battery health).
My point being that someone who might not want to buy a second hand ICE car, and thus tends to lease or buy a new car on PCP, might actually feel more comfortable with an older, and lot cheaper, EV. To me, there seems to be a lot less risk of being sold a lemon.
The batteries are likely still going to be almost like new unless they've been used as taxis and done 200,000 miles or something (and even those are often found to still have good battery health).
I don't think that's fair to say anymore. Cars are very expensive full stop.
The new Vauxhall Frontera electric is cheaper than the ICE version.
Petrol Vauxhall Frontera tested: the EV is better | Autocar
New compact crossover offers square-jawed style for an affordable price – but is there any more to it?
www.autocar.co.uk
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
New cars are way too expensive because PCPs allow them to be ludicrously overpriced by offering affordable repayments on a silly headline figure because you are just financing the depreciation, in effect*. Best value unless doing "bangernomics" is to buy a used car a couple of years old (so you benefit from the last bit of warranty in case there are faults). With a Kia you can obviously go a little older due to the 7 year warranty rather than the more usual 3.
* This is how people "afford" to have premium cars on not-excessively-high incomes - because they hold their value well, the PCP or lease monthly payment is quite low - it's not the same economics as purchase.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I'm not so convinced, most things that go wrong on cars are suspension and brakes related.
EVs are so heavy so they could go through a lot more suspension components quicker than an ICE.
I can't really think of anything that would go wrong in an expensive way on an ICE, unless you were really unlucky and had engine failure. Particularly on a 5ish year old car
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Only if they are not properly specified.
Snow1964
Established Member
Yes the list price in UK is fiction (except that some taxes are based on it). If you compare to the costs in many European countries eg Spain, Poland etc soon discover the UK list prices are higher.
There is lot of cross subsidy in motor industry between manufacturers and their associated finance divisions. One has interest in as high a volume as possible, other in getting as much interest out of you as possible.
PCPs are dressed up to look good (although you can always work out their value by adding up all the payments, deposits and final payments and comparing to cash price in the finance illustration). Usually end up with something like £2000 deposit contribution, but pay £6000 in interest & fees. They survive because some people are dumb and only look at monthlies (ignoring deposit etc).
Of course if you buy a car and keep it say 7-10 years, they get one sale markup, if it goes back on sale after 2 or 3 years they get 2 sales markups, so they have created a system which makes money for dealers, and where you need to play them at own game. Take finance discounts and gifts, pay it off few weeks later, keep car for many years. And with lower servicing and no engine to maintain on an EV then you have saved by not giving dealers so much money every 2-4 years
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's often alleged that there's no car industry any more. It's a finance industry that happens to use cars as a means of selling its finance products. It's a bit cynical but I think there's something in it.
Personally I've never played the game and have always bought outright using an unsecured personal loan, which in interest terms has always been cheaper (sometimes significantly so) and has always left me an asset at the end to sell to put towards the next, and the possibility to sell that asset for a lump sum while keeping the loan going if I came into financial difficulties e.g. lost my job. It does mean higher monthly payments, but at least I actually own something. Not bought new for a long time though, 20 years ago new could be good value (particularly when they chucked in things like servicing packages), since the advent of the PCP it no longer is.
Probably a couple of the worst unexpected serious failures of an IC vehicle is a timing belt (particularly wet belts), followed by some of the more exotic auto gearboxes. It seems that four figure sums for failures occurring before 50k miles and the following rectification can still occur even when the manufacturer's servicing schedule has been adhered to. Some auto gearboxes can also deteriorate early, particularly dual clutch and CVT types.
cactustwirly
Established Member
That is a very rare failure, timing belts are due every 10 years and are only a couple hundred to replace.
My engine is a chain and will last well into 100k miles
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Often a bit more than that. The Ford wet belts particularly.
They rarely fail unless not replaced on schedule (a lot of people forget about them) but some vehicles have known issues and have had the service intervals reduced. No good if you were one of the "guinea pigs" though!
Chains are a far better design, belts are a stupid idea, particularly wet belts. But in the end the imminent obsolescence of the ICE for private cars will render this no longer an issue anyway.
Wet belts have two main failure modes:
1) wear sufficient to allow timing slippage with all the horrors that valves being in the same place and time as piston heads!
2) their complex structure of fabric and synthetic rubbers breaking down through lubricant irregularities, (e.g. working outside temperature range, poor or blocked flow causing 1) above and the resulting flotsam circulating and damaging other sensitive parts of an IC engine.
My now 13 year old fiesta had the belt changed at 9.5 years old, as the water pump had an issue and was very noisy, still worked though. As above was a couple of hundred pounds to get replaced at an independent garage.
However, an in-law's 16-plate focus had failure mode number 2 occur 6 months ago, which cost thousands to be repaired (and was done away from home). However, this was likely the result of irregular servicing and oil changes.
Generally they do last the stated 10 year life span, but are definitely inferior to a chain.
I think most mechanics will be glad to see the back of all timing belts, not just wet belts.
In the last few years I’ve had the following go on my (now) 6 yearish old diesel with average miles
Glow plugs
Control relay for emissions monitoring
aircon evaporator
exhaust gas recirculation unit
Boot seals on the gearbox
Brake discs all round
Thats a toral of £4k.
And apparently none of these are uncommon.
Of course the aircon and brakes could go in an EV, but the others couldn‘t. And I‘d expect the brake discs to be used somewhat less in an EV.