No possible opportunity to purchase ticket?

[Haywain]

Are you saying that ScotRail can retail them through TVMs if they so choose? Even against the wishes of the local authorities that control them.

Scotrail can choose to sell them through TVMs or not sell them at all. The local authorities are not the ones selling them at tickets.

 

[35B]

Whatever local authorities might want, it is Scotrail who control where they can be sold. And it was Scotrail who objected to LNER selling such tickets on TVMs.

And it's Scotrail with whom the local authorities have their agreements on sale?

 

[Buzby]

Are you saying that ScotRail can retail them through TVMs if they so choose?

As you can see from @sheff1 ’s message above, it is possible for a TVM to retail any ticket if programmed to do so. The usual argument is to ‘prevent abuse’ but then the machines cannot validate Railcard discounts at time of issue - IF they were upgraded to RF/Contactless then it could. As all SPT concessions cards use RF (and sport several ‘cash’ wallets too - I use mine for Subway travel) then they are already most of the way there. Saying that ‘Councils would object’ is disingenuous - which ones?

 

[reb0118]

...... Saying that ‘Councils would object’ is disingenuous - which ones?

In respect of the Fife scheme Fife Council, and I suspect the various councils that fund the Strathclyde scheme are similar.

This is not an issue of whether the TVMs can issue them, we know they can. But rather should they issue them - I think yes, as long as certain safeguards are in place.

However, the point you are not responding to is the liability issue. Unlike railcard discounts, there is a liability or burden on the local authority, or authorities, behind each respective scheme whether a ticket is issued to a valid NEC holder or not. In essence the authority pays the railway a sum of money for each ticket sold. This is the issue at hand. Suggestions have been put forward to alleviate this issue, but as things stand the local authorities insist on a supervised sale, either at a ticket office or on board the train.

Remember, these schemes are not guaranteed to last. An additional burden of paying out for ineligible passengers may just tip them over the edge - that said the in the case of the Strathclyde one would it be cheaper in the long run just to issue to those that want one, a senior or disabled railcard as applicable,

 

[MotCO]

They might see you carrying cards - that’s no proof that they would be any good for paying for a ticket. I doubt even BTP have the right to see your bank balance without a warrant.

Similarly, if purchasing a ticket pushes you into the red and you incur bank charges, surely that cannot be right.

 

[Buzby]

However, the point you are not responding to is the liability issue. Unlike railcard discounts, there is a liability or burden on the local authority, or authorities, behind each respective scheme whether a ticket is issued to a valid NEC holder or not.

I did, and outlined how it could be achieved with certainty and with a full audit trail (that is presently absent). Presently it relies on a cursory check that an SPT card is in the possession of the holder. Usually as long as the Saltire is seen a ticket is issued. This is a clear breach of the rules, but seemingly, Council’s are happy for this to continue.

As for liability, until the rules change - they are on the hook for a contribution for each journey taken*. Far better to add TVMs in tandem with validation of the NEC, eventually ending the perverse system we currently experience.

I hold both a Railcard and an SPT NEC. At the start of each journey (if I’ve not taken it before) I have to ask which offers the best discount as it is quite a task to do it yourself. Adding the option to a TVM means I could do it in moments.

*And may well be for non-SPT card holders who wish to bend the rules. ScotRail won’t care, as SPT will divvy up when asked.

 

[reb0118]

....IF they were upgraded to RF/Contactless then it could. As all SPT concessions cards use RF (and sport several ‘cash’ wallets too.....)

I have suggested this both internally, and to the odd councillor that I meet on my travels. The concensus is that it won't be happening. If fact, the impression that I got from the councillors was that they would scrap the schemes if they could avoid the backlash. Over the time I've been employed in the railway these schemes have dwindled dramatically - albeit the largest scheme, SPT, still exists. Social mobility is a useful thing to maintain I mourn their loss.

As an aside, you are no doubt aware that your NEC is a smartcard is respect of travel products. Your concession ticket can be loaded onto it, not only that but many others tickets (even with your senior discount) can be loaded too. When purchasing tickets, do any staff members offer to load these tickets onto your NEC?

 

[Buzby]

As an aside, you are no doubt aware that your NEC is a smartcard is respect of travel products. Your concession ticket can be loaded onto it, not only that but many others tickets (even with your senior discount) can be loaded too. When purchasing tickets, do any staff members offer to load these tickets onto your NEC?

I think you know the answer to that! I had to reject the purchase of a needless SPT Travel Card when I proffered my NEC and asked it to be loaded onto mobiles that - that added 10 minutes to my life I’d never get back as the clerk tried together guidance on how to do it.

The concensus is that it won't be happening. If fact, the impression that I got from the councillors was that they would scrap the schemes if they could avoid the backlash.

That’s ’if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ mantra. Fortunately that isn’t solely within their gift - the National changes to the NEC are heading their way - including concession cards loaded onto mobiles, and eligibility linked to the actual state retirement age. I wish I could discover the percentage of usage of fares taken by Cash / Card / Mobiles / Tap & Pay etc and see how the load is shifting and in which direction.

 

[TUC]

Northern's app allows West Yorkshire senior and disabled concessionary discounts to be selected. It's hard to see why it should be any more difficult for other parts of the country, or other TOCs, to do so.

 

[contrex]

As you were paying cash - no ticket issuing facility was available. You are not required to seek out anyone on board to buy one from (which does not imply it’s ok to hide from them!) - I’m surprised no one came round as they’re usually quite vigilant on the Beach line.
Being Sunday, maybe staff shortage - it seems usually to be a third crew member doing tickets.

It's a toss-up whether my wife and I get seen going from Stapleton Road to Redland or Clifton Down, in fact I'd say mostly we go free, but feel we have to pay coming back as there are ticket machines at those two stations. We usually go on Wednesdays.

 

[Haywain]

It's a toss-up whether my wife and I get seen going from Stapleton Road to Redland or Clifton Down, in fact I'd say mostly we go free, but feel we have to pay coming back as there are ticket machines at those two stations. We usually go on Wednesdays.

If there are ticket machines at both stations there is no excuse for not paying in one direction.

 

[contrex]

If there are ticket machines at both stations there is no excuse for not paying in one direction.

Please read my post more carefully. Perhaps I could have worded it more clearly.

It's a toss-up whether my wife and I get seen going from Stapleton Road to Redland or Clifton Down, in fact I'd say mostly we go free, but feel we have to pay coming back as there are ticket machines at those two stations.

'Those two stations' refers to the immediately preceding named stations, Redland and Clifton Down, either of which we might travel to. These have ticket machines.

Stapleton Road, our local station, has none, although it has GWR smart card readers.

We don't have these cards, and we don't use phone apps or e-tickets.

Stapleton Road is not a Penalty Fare station, although the others we may go to, and return from, mostly are.

We always board the outward train with cash and debit cards ready to pay. We 'feel', because it is the law, that we have to buy a ticket before boarding a train to return to Stapleton Road.

Sometimes, more often than not (much more than 50% of the time), nobody selling/checking tickets has appeared through the train by the time we get to our destination station. I don't mean they are working their way along and haven't got to us. I mean nobody has emerged from a cab. Once I approached the GWR person despatching the train at Redland, and she just waved me away.

I hope that is clearer.

I assure you that my wife and I are very far from being 'fare dodgers'.

What do you suggest we do in such a situation?

Extract from GWR Penalty Fare map. Solid green circles are Penalty Fare stations which, as far as I know, have ticket machines.


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