ScotRail Suburban Fleet (EMU and BEMU) Market Engagement

[John R]

But how about the far north and west highland lines scotrail seems to have stuck its head in the sand they will need a diesel replacement

ISTR the plan when the total decarbonisation plan was first announced that hydrogen was the preferred source of power, aided by the abundance of cheap hydro power available in the area. Though like many hydrogen developments both here and in Europe, things seem to be rather slow in progressing.

 

[norbitonflyer]

But how about the far north and west highland lines scotrail seems to have stuck its head in the sand they will need a diesel replacement

Not if battery or hydrogen technology is sufficientky developed before all the diesels are life-expired.

There is a big "green" hydrogen generation plant only a few miles from the northern end of the Far North Line.

Hydrogen in Orkney

Orkney’s reputation for marine energy expertise and excellence extends around the world. Now, new projects involving the production of hydrogen could be the answer to grid capacity issues in the islands.

www.orkney.com

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2025 ==

ISTR the plan when the total decarbonisation plan was first announced that hydrogen was the preferred source of power, aided by the abundance of cheap hydro power available in the area. Though like many hydrogen developments both here and in Europe, things seem to be rather slow in progressing.

Not just hydro. Orkney has an excess of renewable energy (mainly wind and tidal) and uses the excess to generate hydrogen, much of which is used for transport (road vehicles and ferries) in the archipelago.

 

[hwl]

But how about the far north and west highland lines scotrail seems to have stuck its head in the sand they will need a diesel replacement

Neither of those is within the scope for the tender and Scotrail are sitting on the fence on those for as long as possible.

This tender is about "easy" battery. The 170 and 222s will ensure that the more "difficult" battery / battery vs hydrogen choice is pushed to 2040-2045

Given current rates of improvement in battery performance WHL is the only one that look like battery might be difficult in the longer term (Far North is looking do-able assuming some charging at the Northern end).

 

[Bill57p9]

There is quite a bit of hydroelectric generation capacity around the West Highland Line too therefore partial electrification with rapid charging may be an option.

The class 156s on WHL and GSW (including Stranraer) are looking tired and definitely in need of a retirement plan.

 

[Trainbike46]

There is quite a bit of hydroelectric generation capacity around the West Highland Line too therefore partial electrification with rapid charging may be an option.

The class 156s on WHL and GSW (including Stranraer) are looking tired and definitely in need of a retirement plan.

The way I understood it, the plan is to replace the stock on the difficult lines (Stranraer, Far North, Kyle, West Highland) with 170s freed from existing duties by the stock in this tender and the 222s.

 

[waverley47]

The way I understood it, the plan is to replace the stock on the difficult lines (Stranraer, Far North, Kyle, West Highland) with 170s freed from existing duties by the stock in this tender and the 222s.

The 158s will be off to the West Highland and Stranraer lines. The 170s aren't really suitable, and in the case of the former, simply won't fit.

Some 170s will head to Aberdeen to beef up capacity up there. The remainder will go to the Glasgow - Carlisle diagrams, or sent back to the lessor, and thence most likely EMR/Northern

 

[snookertam]

This is the important bit. Scotrail felt stung by the 385 debacle, and wants a lot more input into the process than just 'go build us some units.'




ScotRail will not be procuring any more new purely diesel multiple units, at any point in the future. That ship has sailed. The BEMUs won't even have a small engine onboard, they're pure 25kvAC EMUs with a large battery pack.

There may be an argument for diesel-battery hybrids for the rural routes, but that is outwith the scope of this procurement.




The aim is for a minimum length of 100m on all the Central Belt services. This is the maximum length of Queen Street platform 1, and Waverley platform 18 is only 109m.

Most likely to be five 23m car fixed formation units. The low level routes in Glasgow are build for 6 x 20m and would take a *lot* of reconstruction work to extend platforms. The need to use Queen Street platform 1 and Edinburgh platform 18 could be negated by diagramming.

 

[Glaswegian]

This is the important bit. Scotrail felt stung by the 385 debacle, and wants a lot more input into the process than just 'go build us some units.'

What was the 385 debacle?

 

[Class83]

Most likely to be five 23m car fixed formation units. The low level routes in Glasgow are build for 6 x 20m and would take a *lot* of reconstruction work to extend platforms. The need to use Queen Street platform 1 and Edinburgh platform 18 could be negated by diagramming.

Fife Circle were all extended to take 6*23m, so 3 car 23m vehicle units and enough to double in peaks would seem more sensible for Haymarket Depot, I think Borders is build to similar spec (147m minimum platform length).

 

[scotraildriver]

What was the 385 debacle?

Late delivery, retrofitting of guards panels as Transport Scotland assumed they would operate driver only and the late change in design (TS again!) to incorporate a gangway and the resulting windscreen issues. Not to mention the costs and training requirements to temporarily train drivers on Class 365s. The amount of overtime paid to accommodate training was eye watering!

 

[waverley47]

What was the 385 debacle?

The failure of proper communication between ScotRail and Hitachi, and Hitachi's terrible quality control, led to a unit design that was unacceptable. Basically TS were shafted by Hitachi, and vice versa, so the working relationship had collapsed by the end.

 

[DaStripedCgull]

Speaking of the 385s, apparently the new fleet are going to be running on the Shotts and Lanark lines which are currently served by 385s. Sounds like Scotrail is intending for the new fleet to take over most of the 385 duties from Central.

 

[Scotrail88]

Is a lot of the route choice down to the level accessing and removing of ramps, etc.

Would imagine time savings and potential diagram improvements are also considered with more of a mix at central being possible with a fixed fleet.

 

[GLC]

The failure of proper communication between ScotRail and Hitachi, and Hitachi's terrible quality control, led to a unit design that was unacceptable. Basically TS were shafted by Hitachi, and vice versa, so the working relationship had collapsed by the end.

Weren’t the 385s winning golden spanner awards for their high availability initially?

 

[Ben Conlin]

Speaking of the 385s, apparently the new fleet are going to be running on the Shotts and Lanark lines which are currently served by 385s. Sounds like Scotrail is intending for the new fleet to take over most of the 385 duties from Central.

Would that be a reduction in capacity vs a 6 car 385 I wonder. Maybe not enough to make a massive difference

 

[hux385]

Kilmarnock doesn't seem to get a mention so I'm assuming that will stay as diesels for a while longer (although I might be reading into it too much).

Also, with talk of these new trains moving onto Shotts and Lanark lines, it makes me wonder what ScotRail will do with the 385s this will free up? Plus the 380s that will be freed up from the South Electrics.

All very exciting though, let's get them built!

 

[snookertam]

Would that be a reduction in capacity vs a 6 car 385 I wonder. Maybe not enough to make a massive difference

Probably but the 385s probably provide over capacity on these routes.

Not quite sure of the spec of the new units as the proposed routes - Glasgow inner city and Fife/Borders don’t really strike me as requiring the same sort of unit.

 

[Peter0124]

I don't know how I feel about them replacing 385s if they're the metro style units. Works fine on Cathcart, Paisley Canal, EK, Barrhead etc but I don't know about Lanark and Shotts.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I don't know how I feel about them replacing 385s if they're the metro style units. Works fine on Cathcart, Paisley Canal, EK, Barrhead etc but I don't know about Lanark and Shotts.

It’s tricky as Lanark used to be a Low Level route, prior to the electrification of Whifflet/Cumbernauld etc. It shows they’re happy to do this sort of thing. Carstairs still gets that daily ex Low Level train as well.

I agree though, taking the 385’s off either in my opinion would not work. Just depends what they decide to do. Airdrie-Bathgate-Edinburgh uses the 334’s which in my opinion are also woefully inadequate for this route, alas that effectively functions as an extension of a Glasgow suburban route whereas Shotts and Lanark are not - even if Lanark is Driver only. Basically this shows the new units need to be dual purpose and I draw comparisons on how the 345’s are laid out. Mixed seating and it seems to work. We shall have to wait and see.

 

[BlueLeanie]

But how about the far north and west highland lines scotrail seems to have stuck its head in the sand they will need a diesel replacement

Why do they need a diesel replacement?

Here's a picture of Amazon's new Mercedes HGV Fleet that can haul a 22 tonne load for 310 miles on a single charge.

Here's a picture of the Ember all electric Coaches that cruise between Fort William and Edinburgh 3-5 times a day.

The world is moving on. Whilst rail enthusiasts are wringing their hands and claiming that it's impossible for battery trains to work in Scotland, the road haulage and coach industry are just getting on with it.

 

[Ben Conlin]

I don't know how I feel about them replacing 385s if they're the metro style units. Works fine on Cathcart, Paisley Canal, EK, Barrhead etc but I don't know about Lanark and Shotts.

Not sure what a metro style unit would look like nowadays for ScotRail. In terms of accessibility unlikely to go back to 3+2 seating combined with a potentially narrower body for level boarding. Could it just be a 380 interior or a 385 with half width tables?

 

[Bill57p9]

Kilmarnock doesn't seem to get a mention so I'm assuming that will stay as diesels for a while longer (although I might be reading into it too much).

Also, with talk of these new trains moving onto Shotts and Lanark lines, it makes me wonder what ScotRail will do with the 385s this will free up? Plus the 380s that will be freed up from the South Electrics.

All very exciting though, let's get them built!

Given the Barrhead electrification, Kilmarnock might be a choice between BEMU or cascaded (158 or 170) DMU for commonality with Dumfries and Stranraer lines.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Railnews - ScotRail issues procurement notice for new suburban trains

railnews.mobi

From this article it’s looking likely that the Argyle Line will be upgraded to new stock to include Lanark/Shotts meanwhile the 334s will probably run exclusively on the North Clyde line. These lines have inter worked and shared stock since the 320s were upgraded to run alongside the 318s back in the early 10s. Surely it makes sense to just replace one big fleet and have them run both routes?

 

[Ben Conlin]

Railnews - ScotRail issues procurement notice for new suburban trains

railnews.mobi

From this article it’s looking likely that the Argyle Line will be upgraded to new stock to include Lanark/Shotts meanwhile the 334s will probably run exclusively on the North Clyde line. These lines have inter worked and shared stock since the 320s were upgraded to run alongside the 318s back in the early 10s. Surely it makes sense to just replace one big fleet and have them run both routes?

I’d imagine the follow up order would include 334 replacements as they’ll be coming up on 35. Lanark I can kind of see if the new trains ran in parallel with 385s as there’s still 318/20s on it now and with the Carstairs services. I’d struggle to see them running on the Shotts line unless the whole line gets swapped over. I think it runs mostly as 3 car 385s though so could be an easy capacity boost.

 

[SC318250]

I’d imagine the follow up order would include 334 replacements as they’ll be coming up on 35. Lanark I can kind of see if the new trains ran in parallel with 385s as there’s still 318/20s on it now and with the Carstairs services. I’d struggle to see them running on the Shotts line unless the whole line gets swapped over. I think it runs mostly as 3 car 385s though so could be an easy capacity boost.

Would guess the Lanark services may refer to Sunday working also where the majority of Lanark/Motherwell services are 318/320 operated.

Shotts might be if the BEMUs are based at Corkerhill running through on some services that the Class 158 currently operate over Shotts.

 

[NCT]

'Metro layout' most probably means class 730/0 or /717 type affair, so should be suitable for all Central Belt and Fife routes. I reckon they'll get away with a single interior layout for at least all the pure electrics.

 

[och aye]

Will this procurement mean the end of 156/8s operating at Waverley?

 

[Peter0124]

Will this procurement mean the end of 156/8s operating at Waverley?

156s stopped using Waverley a while ago, though I know the diesel shotts service has had one on it before, but its very rare.

 

[InOban]

I don't think that any Edinburgh crew sign 156s.

 

[Bill57p9]

Last regularly scheduled 156 turn in Edinburgh I can recall was the summer Sunday through service to/from Oban, which ended in September 2024