Single Justice Procedure Notice - Expired Railcard

[WesternLancer]

GTR usually settle cases like this but if there was abusive language directed towards the member of staff then this might explain why they have gone straight to prosecution.

I don’t think they have gone straight to prosecution. See post 3. There was a letter but the op was away and by the time they got it it was too late and things had escalated, or escalated before the op’s initial reply made it.

 

[furlong]

On the fare avoided, no, they usually charge the full undiscounted fare on the basis that the payment with the railcard was for an invalid ticket. No credit for amount paid, basically. Normal practice. In the context of the total settlement you’d be splitting hairs. If they settle, it’s on their terms.

Normally the difference is so small it's not worth quibbling over. But it can certainly be raised that they are only entitled to a sum that puts them back into the position they'd have been in had there been no crime. Train companies such as GTR and GWR indeed normally allow for monies already paid.

as explained - this is standard (theory being if all you have to pay is the difference then no punitive element to make people pay the correct fare every time - they would just chance it) - so they pick a punitive level of fare

I don't think there is currently any legal basis to include any punitive element. The ONLY punitive element available to the train company is a Penalty Fare (which can't be issued retrospectively). A court should impose a fine as its punishment and not enforce an exaggerated measure of the loss as a further penalty.

GTR explicitly say they don't deal with "pleadings" emails, and bin them, so I would recommend not sending by email,

I think the OP was right to send email in a situation like this as we have seen them read and responded to in similar circumstances. In other cases we've also seen them accept an image of a signed letter (which strikes me as the best approach - write a letter, sign it, then both post it and email an image of it).
(They seem to be fairly relaxed when they are going to settle. Clearly they need to discourage unsigned pleadings of uncertain authenticity that may need to be presented in court.)

 

[WesternLancer]

Normally the difference is so small it's not worth quibbling over. But it can certainly be raised that they are only entitled to a sum that puts them back into the position they'd have been in had there been no crime. Train companies such as GTR and GWR indeed normally allow for monies already paid.



I don't think there is currently any legal basis to include any punitive element. The ONLY punitive element available to the train company is a Penalty Fare (which can't be issued retrospectively). A court should impose a fine as its punishment and not enforce an exaggerated measure of the loss as a further penalty.



I think the OP was right to send email in a situation like this as we have seen them read and responded to in similar circumstances. In other cases we've also seen them accept an image of a signed letter (which strikes me as the best approach - write a letter, sign it, then both post it and email an image of it).
(They seem to be fairly relaxed when they are going to settle. Clearly they need to discourage unsigned pleadings of uncertain authenticity that may need to be presented in court.)

Sorry. I meant ‘punitive’ in the sense of the most expensive fare available to them eg peak rate Anytime fare, ‘a punitively expensive fare’.

Not helpful of me when in the context of actual context of a discussion about court punishment I now realise.

 

[Hadders]

I don’t think they have gone straight to prosecution. See post 3. There was a letter but the op was away and by the time they got it it was too late and things had escalated, or escalated before the op’s initial reply made it.

Apologies, I stand corrected.

 

[island]

Normally the difference is so small it's not worth quibbling over. But it can certainly be raised that they are only entitled to a sum that puts them back into the position they'd have been in had there been no crime. Train companies such as GTR and GWR indeed normally allow for monies already paid.

Yes, and magistrates' courts will tend to take the same view where the defendant is present and makes the point cogently. Magistrates should look at the actual loss when deciding how much compensation to order. Though in a "railway court" there will often be a great many cases to handle and time may be short, so it's important to be concise.

 

[colt45]

A Solicitor has given me the contact of someone within GTR who could help me. I have sent him a similar letter to the one we drafted, just also added my age as I am quite young and there is some leeway there per the solicitor.

Also, to WesternLance's advice if I do not get a response by Monday I will plead Not guilty which will give me more time to settle and if I still don't hear anything back, I will be able to change my plea to guilty whenevr. This means I would not get the 33% reduction but the fine is only £135 so I can accept this if it increases my chance of reaching an out of court settlement.

All the solicitors have almost laughed at the idea of me hiring them for this case because it is so simple, but to keep the record clean if it does actually increase my chances I'd probably take the chance

 

[WesternLancer]

A Solicitor has given me the contact of someone within GTR who could help me. I have sent him a similar letter to the one we drafted, just also added my age as I am quite young and there is some leeway there per the solicitor.

Also, to WesternLance's advice if I do not get a response by Monday I will plead Not guilty which will give me more time to settle and if I still don't hear anything back, I will be able to change my plea to guilty whenevr. This means I would not get the 33% reduction but the fine is only £135 so I can accept this if it increases my chance of reaching an out of court settlement.

All the solicitors have almost laughed at the idea of me hiring them for this case because it is so simple, but to keep the record clean if it does actually increase my chances I'd probably take the chance

I think you can indeed change your plea ahead of the actual court date if you choose to do so (and I thought but maybe I am wrong, you would then still get the discount for an 'early guilty plea' )

The £135 is not the total you would pay if it went to court (but may be the only bit that the discount applies to)

Ref your age they may deal with things differently if you are under 18 years of age.

It sounds like you have taken the time to listen to some solicitors and they have hopefully been of some help to you.

 

[island]

but the fine is only £135

If you plead or are found guilty at court you will be liable to pay more than £135; I would predict the following

• A fine, likely to be half a week's wage, or £60 if unwaged/student or £220 if your wage is unknown to the court
• a surcharge of 40% of the fine
• Costs of £135
• compensation of £24.10 (or maybe less, see post 32)

Any discount for guilty plea will come off the fine and by extension the surcharge, but not the costs or compensation.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you plead or are found guilty at court you will be liable to pay more than £135; I would predict the following

• A fine, likely to be half a week's wage, or £60 if unwaged/student or £220 if your wage is unknown to the court
• a surcharge of 40% of the fine
• Costs of £135
• compensation of £24.10 (or maybe less, see post 32)

Any discount for guilty plea will come off the fine and by extension the surcharge, but not the costs or compensation.

ah yes, we have not seen the court paperwork but perhaps the £135 mentioned by the OP is listed in the court paperwork as the costs that the railway company will apply for and the OP has confused this with the court fine that would be levied (which is the punishment for the offence concerned that the court levies for a guilty verdict).

 

[island]

ah yes, we have not seen the court paperwork but perhaps the £135 mentioned by the OP is listed in the court paperwork as the costs that the railway company will apply for and the OP has confused this with the court fine that would be levied (which is the punishment for the offence concerned that the court levies for a guilty verdict).

It's the only thing that fits, as the fine/surcharge are determined by the court so the only number that might appear is £1000 for the maximum fine.

 

[colt45]

Hello, I have received an email from GTR granting me an out of court settlement. I paid it and the receipt says that my case will not continue. However, today it's also my deadline to submit the SNJP. Should I just not submit that or submit it with proof that an out of court settlement has been reached? Would not want the court to make a mistake and still taint my record

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, I have received an email from GTR granting me an out of court settlement. I paid it and the receipt says that my case will not continue. However, today it's also my deadline to submit the SNJP. Should I just not submit that or submit it with proof that an out of court settlement has been reached? Would not want the court to make a mistake and still taint my record

I think you do need to communicate this to the court as you don't want them to think you have ignored the SJPN and it may take a while for them to get anything from the railway to say your case has been withdrawn - I'm just not sure what process to use (ie if you should actually send back SJPN paperwork or not).

I think you should put something to the court in writing that
- encloses that e-mail from GTR
- encloses the payment receipt
informs the court that you believe the case will be withdrawn by GTR and have thus not returned the SJPN paperwork with a plea
But also ask the court if there is anything else you need to do about this / if the court can confirm the case has been withdrawn

Maybe others here can advise if this is the best thing to do or if something else is better - I would certainly do something (not just assume it will all be sorted)

Did GTR indicate (or maybe you can ask them to do so) confirm they have advised the court the case has been withdrawn now?

 

[colt45]

I think you do need to communicate this to the court as you don't want them to think you have ignored the SJPN and it may take a while for them to get anything from the railway to say your case has been withdrawn - I'm just not sure what process to use (ie if you should actually send back SJPN paperwork or not).

I think you should put something to the court in writing that
- encloses that e-mail from GTR
- encloses the payment receipt
informs the court that you believe the case will be withdrawn by GTR and have thus not returned the SJPN paperwork with a plea
But also ask the court if there is anything else you need to do about this / if the court can confirm the case has been withdrawn

Maybe others here can advise if this is the best thing to do or if something else is better - I would certainly do something (not just assume it will all be sorted)

Did GTR indicate (or maybe you can ask them to do so) confirm they have advised the court the case has been withdrawn now?

Hello. Yes I was thinking to send those things in a letter to the court too along with the SJPN. Problem is that I marked "not guilty" about 30min before receiving the email with the settlement message so I need to somehow remove that - also, not sure I'd need to send back the SJPN part where I plead if the case is now settled - as in perhaps a letter with the email from GTR and Settlement Receipt, and original documents from SJPN should do the trick?

In the letter from the GTR employee, all it says regarding the case is the following:
Failure to pay the above amount by the 14/11/25 10am could result in the case continuing through the magistrate’s court process where Govia Thameslink Railway may apply for additional costs.

Also, GTR website receipt where I paid says:
Prosecution: xxxxxxx is now paid and the case against you will no longer continue. Thank you.

I have asked the GTR employee if there is any further action needed from me - specifying how soon I have to return the SJPN to the court. I have also asked this question to any solicitors I had been speaking with and I am now awaiting for a response on all fronts.

If anyone has any further advice on this, please let me know ASAP!

 

[jfollows]

If you entered a “not guilty” plea, that sounds good to me. The court will now have to arrange a court date so nothing will happen quickly, and when they get your update it can be cancelled. If you’d pled “guilty” there’s always a chance that you’d have been sentenced.

Our court system is overloaded to the point of incompetence and you don’t want mistakes to be made.

 

[colt45]

Just received a response from GTR employee and he said they will notify the court accordingly... Not sure if I can trust that so I have asked him again being very clear on the circumstances I'm in.

Will probably still send the SJPN with "not guilty" plea anyway and add that both the email and receipt from GTR.
I reckon this should 100% sort me out.

I'm never using an expired railcard in my life, the amount of paperwork and mess I have had to go through for the past 2 weeks is absolute insanity.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just received a response from GTR employee and he said they will notify the court accordingly... Not sure if I can trust that so I have asked him again being very clear on the circumstances I'm in.

Will probably still send the SJPN with "not guilty" plea anyway and add that both the email and receipt from GTR.
I reckon this should 100% sort me out.

I'm never using an expired railcard in my life, the amount of paperwork and mess I have had to go through for the past 2 weeks is absolute insanity.

so maybe given the good advice in post 44 by others - send the SJPN back with the not guilty plea but also include covering letter (and enclosures including that latest one from GTR saying case will ne be proceeded with) - so the court have all of that (you could maybe even say in your covering letter you had completed the SJPN paperwork to submit today when you then received the enclosed from GTR that they would accept an Out of Court settlement and withdraw the case, but you felt it best to return the paperwork anyway with a plea completed as well as details of the Out of Court settlement offer and receipt showing payment)

Keep copies of every page you a send to them (and probably post it tracked postage to the court) and make sure all the ref numbers (esp any court ref numbers if they are different) is written on every page you send them - ie including the copies of those e-mails from GTR and the proof of payment receipt etc.