UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[renegademaster]

Considering how much people here hate LNER/Avanti yield management, why do you think algorithmic yield management of the roads is going to go down with the 90% of the electorate who drive?

 

[styles]

I mean, any pay-per-mile policy is going to be politically-unpopular.

 

[renegademaster]

I mean, any pay-per-mile policy is going to be politically-unpopular.

True, but a predictable total miles cost will be less unpopular than "it cost £300 to take my nan to the hospital because the computer suddenly decided so" in the same way people complain about very expensive walk up tickets they get faced with after a unplanned reason to travel arises

 

[styles]

True, but a predictable total miles cost will be less unpopular than "it cost £300 to take my nan to the hospital because the computer suddenly decided so" in the same way people complain about very expensive walk up tickets they get faced with after a unplanned reason to travel arises

You wouldn't have a computer suddenly decide so.

On the flip side of this, people living rurally (I live in Scotland and rural really has a different meaning I feel!) are more likely to oppose a flat rate per mile. Admittedly this is more likely a Highlands & Islands issue, but then that'll raise new questions about Westminster not understanding the country further north.

 

[Bald Rick]

Considering how much people here hate LNER/Avanti yield management, why do you think algorithmic yield management of the roads is going to go down with the 90% of the electorate who drive?

It already happens on the M6 toll. Or at least it did.

 

[renegademaster]

You wouldn't have a computer suddenly decide so.

On the flip side of this, people living rurally (I live in Scotland and rural really has a different meaning I feel!) are more likely to oppose a flat rate per mile. Admittedly this is more likely a Highlands & Islands issue, but then that'll raise new questions about Westminster not understanding the country further north.

I think ultimately motorist will win the arguement that the road budget is actually pretty tiny compared to revenue fuel duty/VED and someone else will have to pay, since fuel duty/VED are essentially carbon taxes and with transport decarbonised you've eliminated what they where sold originally on, so it wouldn't make sense to punish people who did what the government was incentivesing them to do.

 

[styles]

I think ultimately motorist will win the arguement that the road budget is actually pretty tiny compared to revenue fuel duty/VED and someone else will have to pay, since fuel duty/VED are essentially carbon taxes and with transport decarbonised you've eliminated what they where sold originally on, so it wouldn't make sense to punish people who did what the government was incentivesing them to do.

But it's not because the impact of motor vehicles extends beyond Tarmac. There are on average 5 deaths per day where a motor vehicle is found to be the cause. The cost of police, ambulance, fire service, crash barriers, pedestrian railings, resurfacing, cleaning, National Highways (and other highways agencies) patrols, etc etc. Motoring is a net cost to the taxpayers even after VED, fuel duty, and VAT on vehicle purchases is taken into account. Not to mention the byproducts such as health impacts of more sedentary lifestyles. These things don't drastically change when the power is switched from ICE to EV.

There is of course an economic case for investment in infrastructure which needs to be born in mind, though this is the case with other infrastructure and should be accounted for separately as the goal with infrastructure investment is to deliver economic benefit. Which is why we don't ramp up rail fares to generate an extra £50m if we build a new £50m station.

It's not about 'punishing' people - it's about modernising the funding model to reflect the true cost.

I expect parties like the Greens to start to be vocal on this. Balancing the needs of motorist's with the needs of other highways users, and the economic, health, and environmental impacts of our current approach which is, in all honesty, a bit out of control imo.

 

[renegademaster]

crash barriers, pedestrian railings, resurfacing, cleaning, National Highways (and other highways agencies) patrols, etc etc. Motoring is a net cost to the taxpayers even after VED

Half of those would be in the highways budget and I've never actually seen a sound proof of this claim other than vague waffling about unenumerated externalities. If it's such a problem, force insurers to cover NHS costs related to RTC, who will then pass on it's actual cost to motorists

 

[JamesT]

Half of those would be in the highways budget and I've never actually seen a sound proof of this claim other than vague waffling about unenumerated externalities. If it's such a problem, force insurers to cover NHS costs related to RTC, who will then pass on it's actual cost to motorists

This already happens - https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/cru

The Compensation Recovery Unit (CRU), as part of Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), works with insurance companies, solicitors and any DWP customers, to recover:
…
costs incurred by NHS hospitals and Ambulance Trusts for treatment from injuries from road traffic accidents and personal injury claims (Recovery of NHS Charges)

 

[renegademaster]

This already happens - https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/cru

So road accident healthcare costs isn't actually an untaxed externality then, since motorists pay for it via their insurance premiums

 

[Bletchleyite]

It already happens on the M6 toll. Or at least it did.

The M6 Toll does not have algorithmic pricing and never has had. It is fixed peak/off peak pricing vaguely by distance like traditional railway pricing. I have thought in the past that yield managed pricing may not be a bad idea!

 

[Bald Rick]

The M6 Toll does not have algorithmic pricing and never has had. It is fixed peak/off peak pricing vaguely by distance like traditional railway pricing. I have thought in the past that yield managed pricing may not be a bad idea!

I swear it had recently introduced variable pricing - not just peak / off peak, but daytime / late evening / small hours. Not algorithmic admittedly - but I swear I saw diferent prices for the same time of a weekday on different trips earlier this year.

However it now seems they are varying prices by junctions used, presumably using ANPR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I swear it had recently introduced variable pricing - not just peak / off peak, but daytime / late evening / small hours. Not algorithmic admittedly - but I swear I saw diferent prices for the same time of a weekday on different trips earlier this year.

From a quick play with the website it looks like they have now removed the peak/off peak thing and it's the same all the time.

However it now seems they are varying prices by junctions used, presumably using ANPR.

Yes, that's how it's done, plus some sort of cameras/sensors that I believe work out the size of the vehicle (odd overhead things with a white LED light on them).

 

[styles]

So road accident healthcare costs isn't actually an untaxed externality then, since motorists pay for it via their insurance premiums

Not quite.

In the event that there is a successful personal injury claim, then treatment for this may be recovered by the CRU from the relevant insurance company. It won't cover, e.g. an ambulance being preemptively called out to a report of a serious RTC and no successful personal injury claim being made as part of the insurance claim resolution process. The primary reason for this is actually to prevent double claiming. It is also capped (currently just under £55k). The gap last year was £480m, which would make it 95p per (UK-licensed) driver per month, being recovered via CRU for RTCs. Hardly groundbreaking.

Nor, clearly, will it cover police, fire service, highways authority etc costs. It's a drop in the ocean.

 

[JamesT]

However it now seems they are varying prices by junctions used, presumably using ANPR.

They’ve had different prices for vehicles using part of the route versus the whole length for years, possibly right from the start.

 

[gswindale]

They’ve had different prices for vehicles using part of the route versus the whole length for years, possibly right from the start.

Which was annoying when it opened as visiting my parents meant we paid the "local" rate on the way there, but the full rate on the way back due to the locations of the main toll plaza.

 

[renegademaster]

Not quite.

In the event that there is a successful personal injury claim, then treatment for this may be recovered by the CRU from the relevant insurance company. It won't cover, e.g. an ambulance being preemptively called out to a report of a serious RTC and no successful personal injury claim being made as part of the insurance claim resolution process. The primary reason for this is actually to prevent double claiming. It is also capped (currently just under £55k). The gap last year was £480m, which would make it 95p per (UK-licensed) driver per month, being recovered via CRU for RTCs. Hardly groundbreaking.

Nor, clearly, will it cover police, fire service, highways authority etc costs. It's a drop in the ocean.

Sounds like it should be improved as a scheme then , rather than inventing a new tax justified on a unenumerated externality

 

[Bikeman78]

Nothing saying road pricing can't have different rates for different classifications of roads.

That said, you would need to be careful to avoid unintended consequences, e.g. I can think of a couple of country lanes near me which would, depending on the per mile pricing of a motorway, provide a cheaper near-parallel route between two popular destinations. Even something like Penrith to Carlisle - if you take the A6 instead of the M6 J41-J42, the distance is probably the same, but with traffic lights etc. If it saved a sufficient amount compared to the motorway, it would quickly become congested.

And of course Google Maps/Waze/etc will inevitably come up with a way of routing people down cheaper routes.

But in principle, different roads could have different prices per mile.

I was thinking the same. It only takes two lorries on a narrow road to cause bedlam. An extreme example, when the M4 was shut a few years ago, my sat nav diverted me though Wotton under Edge. All the roads gridlocked. I didn't move for 30 minutes. My sat nav tried to get me to turn left onto an even narrower road that was completely blocked.

 

[Snow1964]

October new cars data has been released and over a quarter are pure electric.

Battery electric vehicles BEV 36,830 (25.4%)
Plug in Hybrid PHEV 17,601 (12.1%)
Hybrid electric HEV 19,250 (13.3%)
Petrol 64,360 (44.4%)
Diesel 6907 (4.8%)

New car market holds steady in October but new tax policy threatens market decline - SMMT

Sector calls on government to abandon plans to scrap Employee Car Ownership Schemes, which would throw market into decline with significant economic costs.

www.smmt.co.uk

 

[birchesgreen]

Fascinating data.

Jaecoo 7 is apparently the 6th most popular car sold, never heard of it before

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fascinating data.

Jaecoo 7 is apparently the 6th most popular car sold, never heard of it before

It's a Chinese "fake" Range Rover EV, also looks a bit like a Kia EV9. Doesn't surprise me, I've seen quite a lot of late. Like most of the Chinese EVs it's cheap and probably quite good!

 

[stuu]

Jaecoo 7 is apparently the 6th most popular car sold, never heard of it before

I had never heard of them until about three months ago, now they seem to be absolutely everywhere

 

[Bald Rick]

They’ve had different prices for vehicles using part of the route versus the whole length for years, possibly right from the start.

Only for some junction to junction pairs. Now it is all of them.

 

[birchesgreen]

It's a Chinese "fake" Range Rover EV, also looks a bit like a Kia EV9. Doesn't surprise me, I've seen quite a lot of late. Like most of the Chinese EVs it's cheap and probably quite good!

Yeah i had a look online, don't think i've seen one yet. But then again i mostly drive around Solihull so the Land Rover mafia probably blow them up.

 

[JamesT]

EV drivers could face new pay per mile tax in Budget

The BBC understands there have been "conversations" within government about the possibility of a new levy on EVs.

www.bbc.co.uk

With pressure on the chancellor to find tens of billions of pounds in additional revenue, the BBC understands there have been "conversations" within government about the possibility of a new levy on EVs.
A government spokesperson told the BBC: "Fuel duty covers petrol and diesel, but there's no equivalent for electric vehicles. We want a fairer system for all drivers."
The statement follows a report in the Daily Telegraph, external, that the Budget would include a new pay-per-mile charge for electric vehicles.
According to the Telegraph EV drivers could be charged 3p per mile, on top of other road taxes, amounting to an extra £12 on a journey from London to Edinburgh. Drivers of hybrid cars would also be charged, but at a lower rate.

Looks like the odometer method is coming to EVs and hybrids. I don’t get why they need the need this estimate upfront and credits thing though.

 

[PeterC]

EV drivers could face new pay per mile tax in Budget

The BBC understands there have been "conversations" within government about the possibility of a new levy on EVs.

www.bbc.co.uk

Looks like the odometer method is coming to EVs and hybrids. I don’t get why they need the need this estimate upfront and credits thing though.

You need to start with an estimate for a new car. Also with a second hand car you may end up with substantial over or under payment if based on the vehicles previous usage.

The software to handle it all has been around for decades processing utility bills. Just change the label from kWh to miles or kilometers. (I over simplify but not by much)

 

[renegademaster]

If you want to make a flat charge "fairer" to rural dwellers you could always very based on the population density of the ward they live in, but then it just becomes preferential to people who are likely to be richer

 

[telstarbox]

Most if not all EVs have a data connection so I assume the car could report its mileage at intervals like a smart meter does.

 

[Mawkie]

This seems a liitle backward at the current time. Given it's basically a repeat of The Telegraph article, I give it zero credibility.

Driving an electric car when you don't have access to home charging is already as expensive (usually more) than a small petrol car.

Very few people buy cars based solely on environmental considerations - for most people cost is a massive part of ownership. Asking people to pay £0.85 a unit for electricity (and paying vat on that), in addition to road fund licence, and now potentially a 3p per mile additional cost for EVs, will send people back to petrol cars.

 

[johncrossley]

If you want to make a flat charge "fairer" to rural dwellers you could always very based on the population density of the ward they live in, but then it just becomes preferential to people who are likely to be richer

Not sure I agree with encouraging people to move to a rural area. Sleeping in a rural area yet taking advantage of urban facilities (supermarkets, employment etc.) is worse for the environment as it means all or nearly all trips are by car and are over a longer distance. When they lived in an urban area they might have used public transport and/or walked/cycled.