UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[LYradial]

I would suggest that you might consider buying a full hybrid vehicle, thus being able to choose the cheapest option at the time.

it is interesting that my local Ford dealer has opted to turn to a Chinese brand as its main source of income, they offer identical vehicles with three power options, full IC, plug in hybrid and full electric.
the basic shell is identical, with fixing points for any power option, you cannot tell them apart at a glance.

they are thus positioned to produce cars for the worldwide market where some large countries will never be able to have full EV.

Taxing electricity for use to power vehicles will be taxed in some way or other and it wont be pleasant

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would suggest that you might consider buying a full hybrid vehicle, thus being able to choose the cheapest option at the time.

PHEVs are the worst of both worlds. They have a poor range because they haven't got room for larger batteries, for example. They're also really heavy as they've got both drivetrains. In the days of batteries having very poor capacities they served a role in allowing EV use in the city and petrol use on the motorway, but they no longer really serve a purpose now.

it is interesting that my local Ford dealer has opted to turn to a Chinese brand as its main source of income, they offer identical vehicles with three power options, full IC, plug in hybrid and full electric.
the basic shell is identical, with fixing points for any power option, you cannot tell them apart at a glance.

The European manufacturers are taking the mick on price, as a result of which China is overrunning the market. It was just a few MGs 5 years ago, now there are loads plus all the BYDs, Omodos etc. There won't be a European car market soon if Stellantis and VAG don't "get it" and get their prices down.

Taxing electricity for use to power vehicles will be taxed in some way or other and it wont be pleasant

It's not feasible to do that (too easy to circumvent), hence why road pricing is how it will be done. You could I suppose do it by having a meter on the vehicle itself, though, which is I believe how some trains do it!

 

[styles]

You could I suppose do it by having a meter on the vehicle itself, though, which is I believe how some trains do it!

Most operators have on train meters now for accurate power consumption recording, yes. There's a standard for it, etc. I used to work on the software side of one particular end to end OTM supplier. I was told (though I was quite junior and haven't verified this) that there's almost an effective penalty for running on the old modelled consumption system, so there was an incentive to get OTMs installed, plus some funding available for the capital cost of fitting them.

I think it works well for rail, but then the number of bill payers who may need auditing to ensure their device is compliant, hadn't been tampered with, etc is in the dozens; whereas with individual car owners it would come into the millions. It could be put onto MOT test centres to do verification but we already know there are lots of dodgy MOT test centres. Perhaps the manufacturers, but it would require manufacturers signing up to an indefinite agreement for say annual (or less frequent) checks. The market for exploits which allow the mileage to be tempered with would be huge, hundreds of thousands of times the market space for developing an exploit to the on train metering. So I think it would be a huge technological undertaking to develop something incredibly secure and the ongoing actions needed to maintain data integrity.

Not saying it's not possible, but I don't believe it would be a simple solution and would cost a lot in capex and opex in its own right. I suppose some of that could be offset by ditching e.g. VED?

 

[LYradial]

There is not much more to add, but in regard to mileage records my ford is permanently online to fords computer and its mileage is updated and stored there in realtime, it would be hard to interfere with that.

my experience of hybrids is that they do give the best of both worlds , the regen braking is particularly effective in capturing energy which otherwise would go to waste

 

[N1]

my experience of hybrids is that they do give the best of both worlds , the regen braking is particularly effective in capturing energy which otherwise would go to waste

This is the sales pitch of PHEV, the reality appears to be very different: Smoke screen: the growing PHEV emissions scandal

Executive summary​

In 2026, the European Commission (EC) will review the car CO₂ emission standards - EU’s flagship automotive climate and industrial policy. While the EC prepares for the review, the automotive industry is calling to weaken the regulation, notably by calling to prolong the sales of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) beyond 2035 and to reverse the correction of the official PHEV emissions (based on utility factors). A specific variant of PHEV, extended-range electric vehicles (EREVs), which are becoming increasingly popular in China, have also entered the debate.
This report sheds light on the risks posed by PHEVs, highlighting the crucial importance of upholding the planned utility factor corrections and shows that PHEVs are not future-proof options for European drivers and the European automotive industry.

• The real-world CO₂ emissions of PHEV models registered in 2023 are nearly five times the official emissions. This real-world gap has been widening over the years from 3.5 in 2021 to 4.9 in 2023 based on official data transmitted from on-board fuel consumption meters (OBFCM).
• The gap is mostly caused by flawed assumptions on the share of electric driving mode (the ‘utility factor’, UF) which leads to a drastic underestimate of official PHEV emissions. The UF overestimated the electric driving share, assuming 84% over 2021-2023, whereas real-world data shows this to be just 27%.
• Even when driven in electric mode, PHEVs emit 68gCO₂/km as their electric motors have insufficient power and the combustion engine needs to kick in. The engine supplies power for almost one-third of the distance travelled in electric mode. This would mean an extra €250 in petrol costs every year, as drivers don't expect to pay for fuel when driving in electric mode.
• As a result, PHEVs emitted roughly the same as conventional hybrids and combustion vehicles in the real world. Despite official emissions being 75% lower.
• It is welcome that the UF values are being corrected. But even with the planned 2027/28 UF correction, PHEV real-world emissions would be 18% higher than the official figures.
• The gap between official and real-world emissions also burdens the wallets of PHEV owners. Over a year, drivers have to pay over €500 more than official values imply.
• Cancelling the utility factor correction would slow the transition to zero-emission mobility as carmakers would need to sell 45% BEV, rather than 58% under current regulations. PHEV-focused carmakers could limit BEV sales to just 32%.

 

[LYradial]

This is the sales pitch of PHEV, the reality appears to be very different: Smoke screen: the growing PHEV emissions scandal

That merely relates to emissions and assumes that all the electricity used to charge pure electric vehicles is green
this is not so, neither here in the uk nor most other countries.

refined petrol emissions are one of the least harmful, and compared to those from HGVs with their ten miles per gallon of diesel and, dare I say it, huge diesel locos hauling 2500 tons of stone, might be acceptable in the real world.

 

[N1]

That merely relates to emissions and assumes that all the electricity used to charge pure electric vehicles is green
this is not so, neither here in the uk nor most other countries.

refined petrol emissions are one of the least harmful, and compared to those from HGVs with their ten miles per gallon of diesel and, dare I say it, huge diesel locos hauling 2500 tons of stone, might be acceptable in the real world.

I am not sure what you mean by least harmful. In the report the emissions are exhaust greenhouse gas emissions and is only comparing real-world value Utilisation Factors against lab results.

In the UK emissions from a BEV are about 25% that of a petrol car per mile once greenhouse gases of electricity production and transmission loses are included. (This comes from UK stats for businesses to report emissions, noting that emissions for petrol and diesel are scope 1 only, emissions at exhaust only - this doesn't account for emissions associated with refining petrol or diesel, or transporting it)

In 2023 cars and taxis were responsible for 54% of UK transport greenhouse gas emissions, compared to 16% for HGVs, 16% for light vans and 1% for rail.

If we are looking at NOx in 2023, cars and taxis only responsible for 34%, light vans 18%, HGVs 5% and rail 4%.

Cars are still the main portion. That being said road transport saw a 85% fall in NOx emissions from 1990 to 2023, while rail only a 39% fall.

PM2.5 and PM10 exhaust emissions have fallen to a similar level, but a rise in Tyre, break and road abrasion emissions have only resulted in about a 50% fall in these from 1990-2023.

 

[E27007]

It will be quite hard to set up, given no cars have one standardised system for installing such code.. which would mean hardware having to be fitted to each vehicle (and then systems in place to avoid fraud).

It couldn't just be ANPR based, which can also be defeated, so I fully expect a lot of consultation, a fear of the 'war on the motorist' making any party proposing it unelectable, years of working out the needs for the project, massive overspends and delays, and then issues with enforcement.

Conversion to road pricing may not be difficult, modern vehicles have an SoS system , 1) in an emergency the vehicle SoS system will report its GPS position to the emergency services for search and rescue purposes, 2) the modern European-wide Galileo satellite navigation system is a two-way system, in addition to reading orbiting satellites to calculate position, the vehicle may transmit information of geographical position etc to land-based stations, such information gathered in a land based station of GPS position , vehicle identity, time of day etc may well be the basis for a road-pricing billing system

 

[HSTEd]

Although there might be some minor advantages to a panopticon style car tracking system, it will be enormously more expensive and controversial to implement that simply using the MOT apparatus to record mileage on vehicles every year, then issue a bill.

You could have a self reporting website for people to pay by installments, validated at the MOT. Modern ECU-stored mileages will be very difficult to subvert.

The political implications of surge pricing on roads make it a complete non starter, at which point any rationale for car tracking vanishes.

 

[E27007]

Although there might be some minor advantages to a panopticon style car tracking system, it will be enormously more expensive and controversial to implement that simply using the MOT apparatus to record mileage on vehicles every year, then issue a bill.

You could have a self reporting website for people to pay by installments, validated at the MOT. Modern ECU-stored mileages will be very difficult to subvert.

The political implications of surge pricing on roads make it a complete non starter, at which point any rationale for car tracking vanishes.

Car tracking by number plate recognition camera systems and pricing for road use in Centeal London were established twenty years ago and despite the unpopularity have flourished expanding in coverage to outer London, and show no signs of being abandoned, so the wishes of the electorate have minimal weight

 

[bspahh]

KIA in Finland is including a petrol-scented air fresh freshener with the EV4

This is the Google translation:

Quick help for a permanent change in driving habits.

Petrol-scented air freshener eases acute withdrawal symptoms when switching from combustion engines to electric.

Limited edition available for a limited time to buyers of the new Kia EV4.

#Kia #KiaFinland #EV4 #KiaEV4 #MovementThatInspires

 

[GusB]

KIA in Finland is including a petrol-scented air fresh freshener with the EV4

This is the Google translation:

I had to check my calendar there as I thought we'd perhaps skipped ahead to April 1st!

 

[jon0844]

I had to check my calendar there as I thought we'd perhaps skipped ahead to April 1st!

I did chuckle when I saw that and thought what a clever marketing stunt that is to get publicity.

Perhaps they should also offer a diesel-scented hand wash to customers who want that 'just filled up' smell.

 

[birchesgreen]

Only time my cars have smelt of petrol is when there was a fuel leak in the engine.

 

[PeterC]

Car tracking by number plate recognition camera systems and pricing for road use in Centeal London were established twenty years ago and despite the unpopularity have flourished expanding in coverage to outer London, and show no signs of being abandoned, so the wishes of the electorate have minimal weight

Sadiq was reelected. I think the electorate gave their verdict.

 

[styles]

Sadiq was reelected. I think the electorate gave their verdict.

Probably a result of people realising their cars were compliant. 97% of journeys in London are in ULEZ compliant vehicles. The vast majority of vehicle owners either already had a compliant vehicle or made use of the generous scrappage scheme.

 

[PGAT]

Probably a result of people realising their cars were compliant. 97% of journeys in London are in ULEZ compliant vehicles. The vast majority of vehicle owners either already had a compliant vehicle or made use of the generous scrappage scheme.

I don't think it was actually that unpopular in the first place besides a very vocal minority

 

[styles]

I don't think it was actually that unpopular in the first place besides a very vocal minority

TfL's survey, and YouGov polling, found it broadly 50/50 support/oppose.

I think there were a lot of people who were opposed but not passionately opposed though, and when they're deciding who to vote for, it just wasn't a top deciding factor, especially as it wouldn't actually affect them given how many cars were already compliant.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Only time my cars have smelt of petrol is when there was a fuel leak in the engine.

Some people say they like the smell of petrol. Even as a petrolhead I've never quite understood the appeal!

 

[styles]

Some people say they like the smell of petrol. Even as a petrolhead I've never quite understood the appeal!

I love the smell of petrol, diesel, fresh paint - all the things I ought to avoid inhaling!

 

[bspahh]

I love the smell of petrol, diesel, fresh paint - all the things I ought to avoid inhaling!

I like the smell of petrol. I don't like anti-freeze, but I think that might be from having a couple of blown head gaskets.

 

[styles]

I like the smell of petrol. I don't like anti-freeze, but I think that might be from having a couple of blown head gaskets.

Yeah, screenwash is the one I don't find pleasant. Even worse are screenwashes which try and be more pleasant - I got in someone's car and they have cherry screenwash recently which smelt sickly. See also - fruity air freshners.

 

[renegademaster]

Car tracking by number plate recognition camera systems and pricing for road use in Centeal London were established twenty years ago and despite the unpopularity have flourished expanding in coverage to outer London, and show no signs of being abandoned, so the wishes of the electorate have minimal weight

And then they brought it to the outer boroughs and it turned into a guerilla war of people constantly chopping cameras down and London is barely winning it.

If a dense city like London struggles to keep them functional I don't know how you expect them to stay intact in country lanes of middle of nowhere Cumbria. It would be more realistic to force manufacturers to install some kind of tracking software but it wouldn't be easy unless the whole EU forced it as a block.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a dense city like London struggles to keep them functional I don't know how you expect them to stay intact in country lanes of middle of nowhere Cumbria. It would be more realistic to force manufacturers to install some kind of tracking software but it wouldn't be easy unless the whole EU forced it as a block.

Country lanes are the sort of place where you'd expect usage might be free because there's usually no sensible alternative to driving. So none needed.

 

[birchesgreen]

Some people say they like the smell of petrol. Even as a petrolhead I've never quite understood the appeal!

Yes its something i cannot understand.

Also me: mmm love the smell of a class 37 on full thrash in the morning

 

[renegademaster]

Country lanes are the sort of place where you'd expect usage might be free because there's usually no sensible alternative to driving. So none needed.

Road pricing is being sold to fill the funding gap left by fuel duty. Fuel duty does not discriminate between rural and urban driving , so you probably aren't going to be able to generate the same revenue just from cities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Road pricing is being sold to fill the funding gap left by fuel duty. Fuel duty does not discriminate between rural and urban driving , so you probably aren't going to be able to generate the same revenue just from cities.

If you just want to generate the same revenue, a system based on miles driven captured at MoT is easier, perhaps adjusted by vehicle size or weight. Road pricing allows you to drive behavioural change as well as deriving income from those who reject the desirable behaviour change - for one example you might make it free or nearly free for those living in a little village just outside Oxford to drive to the park and ride, but you might want to charge them £50 or more if they decide they'd rather drive all the way in.

Proportionally little driving is done in rural areas compared to more urban ones, so you absolutely could get most of the required income from urban areas and journeys between them plus motorway tolling.

 

[styles]

Road pricing is being sold to fill the funding gap left by fuel duty. Fuel duty does not discriminate between rural and urban driving , so you probably aren't going to be able to generate the same revenue just from cities.

Nothing saying road pricing can't have different rates for different classifications of roads.

That said, you would need to be careful to avoid unintended consequences, e.g. I can think of a couple of country lanes near me which would, depending on the per mile pricing of a motorway, provide a cheaper near-parallel route between two popular destinations. Even something like Penrith to Carlisle - if you take the A6 instead of the M6 J41-J42, the distance is probably the same, but with traffic lights etc. If it saved a sufficient amount compared to the motorway, it would quickly become congested.

And of course Google Maps/Waze/etc will inevitably come up with a way of routing people down cheaper routes.

But in principle, different roads could have different prices per mile.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Something like the New Zealand Road Use Charges system could work. I'd rather charges be based on odometer readings than on vehicle tracking, but I can't imagine that the UK Government would have those same reservations. The downside of using odometer readings though, is that these are only recorded at MOT tests- which only happen once a year and only on vehicles over 3 years old.
A simple price per mile (or more realistically, price per thousand miles) makes more sense than charging different rates for different types of road. It wouldn't really be fair that some would pay more simply because of the type of road they need to use for their commute. Possibly greater use of toll roads could be implemented, but this could have the downside of driving more vehicles onto the cheaper routes and thus worsening congestion. For ICE vehicles motorways are the most efficient roads, and for all vehicles they're the safest in terms of casualties per vehicle mile. Discouraging the use of the safest and most efficient infrastructure should be the one thing we don't want to happen.

 

[styles]

Something like the New Zealand Road Use Charges system could work. I'd rather charges be based on odometer readings than on vehicle tracking, but I can't imagine that the UK Government would have those same reservations. The downside of using odometer readings though, is that these are only recorded at MOT tests- which only happen once a year and only on vehicles over 3 years old.

And odometers can be wound back. Perhaps more difficult with modern software integrity protection, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't still possible in many EVs. The motivation for this hasn't been that great for a long time, but if it's going to have a direct annual cost saving at MOT time, it may become a whole other ball game. Not to mention garages issuing dodgy MOTs will have no issue lying about the mileage. There's also vehicles exempt from MOTs, so would need to start requiring some sort of annual mileage audit of those, though I imagine that would be fairly straightforward.

It wouldn't really be fair that some would pay more simply because of the type of road they need to use for their commute.

Not sure I agree on this one. We already have various factors in a person's commute - the cost of rail fares, bus fares, multi-modal ticketing, congestion charges, toll roads, car parking charges, house prices, rent prices etc. If there were legitimate safety or health benefits in encouraging certain routes or discouraging others then I don't see why commuting should be exempt.

Possibly greater use of toll roads could be implemented, but this could have the downside of driving more vehicles onto the cheaper routes and thus worsening congestion. For ICE vehicles motorways are the most efficient roads, and for all vehicles they're the safest in terms of casualties per vehicle mile. Discouraging the use of the safest and most efficient infrastructure should be the one thing we don't want to happen.

Well yes, encouraging people to switch from motorways to B roads would be daft. But the principle of differential pricing I don't think is an unworkable one - it's just one which would require an incredible amount of modelling, then rolled out in stages to gather data on the effectiveness, and ultimately be adjusted based on a machine learning approach.

Overall I'd like to see some form of per-mile pricing though, as currently VED being a flat annual payment punishes people who choose to use the 'right tool for the job' - the pushbike to go to the corner shop, walking to school, etc.