HS2 - register your support.

[Tim B]

I apologise for my ignorance, but why dont the government spend the billions of pounds improving current public transport?

Of course there's a place for improving the exisiting rail system - on a piecemeal basis this is currently being done reopenings of closed lines, doubling of singled lines, not to mention Thameslink, Crossrail, Western electrification etc. But a real step change can only happen by building a new line. 2 track Welwyn viaduct and Coventry - New Street stretches are never going to be quadrupled but HS2 will get round these problems.

Take a look at the recent West Coast upgrade - cost £13 billion as I recall, hugely disruptive over many many years. Budget went way over. And for what - yes speed and limited capacity improvements but no real step change. Essentially it is tinkering with a 1840s infrastructure. For me, new money spent on improving current railways is not the way forward - it has to be a new line not so much for improved speed but for the chance to enhance capacity.

 

[GodAtum]

They are. Thats the purpose of HS2.

But isnt that a new public transport system? Why doesn't the government spend the money upgrading current infrastructure and capacity on pre-existing commuter routes instead of building a brand new route?

 

[Tim B]

But Great Western / North West electrification, Crossrail and Thameslink, London Overground enhancements are surely improvements of existing infrastructure - and at a level we haven't seen for decades. Heavily slanted towards London and South East, I agree, but that's another issue.

But we also need the step change that only HS2 can provide in that it will take trains off exisiting lines (West Coast, Midland and GNER) and thereby allow enhanced passengers services and more freight on those lines. There will be a few losers - Coventry and Stoke are likely to have fewer trains to London and possibly slightly slower, but surely we must look at the big picture and look at overall improvements to speed / service level.

 

[Nonsense]

But isnt that a new public transport system? Why doesn't the government spend the money upgrading current infrastructure and capacity on pre-existing commuter routes instead of building a brand new route?

They already did. It was called the West Coast Route Modernisation (WCRM). It was expensive, disruptive and inadequate.

HS2 is necessary.
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But Great Western / North West electrification, Crossrail and Thameslink, London Overground enhancements are surely improvements of existing infrastructure - and at a level we haven't seen for decades. Heavily slanted towards London and South East, I agree, but that's another issue.

You could add the Metrolink extensions, Blackpool Tram upgrade, Edinburgh, Rotherham's Tram-Train trial, Midland Metro extension, Scottish reopenings and electrification. Tyne Metro refurbs and many other smaller scale improvements too numerous to mention here.

 

[yorksrob]

You could add the Metrolink extensions, Blackpool Tram upgrade, Edinburgh, Rotherham's Tram-Train trial, Midland Metro extension, Scottish reopenings and electrification. Tyne Metro refurbs and many other smaller scale improvements too numerous to mention here.

With the exception of Scotland, those are all trams and tubes. Network SouthEast managed about eight electrifications in seven years. The record on the network since then has been abysmal.

 

[Nonsense]

With the exception of Scotland, those are all trams and tubes. Network SouthEast managed about eight electrifications in seven years. The record on the network since then has been abysmal.

True, but they are extensions/improvements to existing Public Transport nonetheless and should be included to counter the perception that HS2 is at the expense of all other projects.

 

[GNER 91128]

Passionnate and robust performance by Pete Waterman on Channel 4 News just now on the benefits of HS2. He nearly come to blows with his opponent from Stop HS2 who, for me, lost out on the arguments. It was like a boxing match: "Go, Pete, go !"

It was a brilliant watch.

Here's a link to it if anyone wants to see the debate:

http://www.channel4.com/news/catch-up/

 

[WatcherZero]

With the exception of Scotland, those are all trams and tubes. Network SouthEast managed about eight electrifications in seven years. The record on the network since then has been abysmal.

Annual figures of transport spending per head are out, London still 4x the public spending per head of all other regions, in fact its lead actually increased last year.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Annual figures of transport spending per head are out, London still 4x the public spending per head of all other regions, in fact its lead actually increased last year.

If the Pennine Chain was a range of hills running on a North-South axis in the northern part of the Home Counties, it would be far higher up the priority ladder for cross-Pennine electrification than it will ever be where it actually IS situated.

 

[jon0844]

But isnt that a new public transport system? Why doesn't the government spend the money upgrading current infrastructure and capacity on pre-existing commuter routes instead of building a brand new route?

Our rail network is rather old. What major new routes were built over the last 50-60 years? Upgrades, yes, but new lines?

We've had new towns and cities built, new industrial areas and so on. There's more demand than there has ever been. If it was a house, you couldn't just slap on some new paint or change the carpet - you'd have to build a new house. Sprucing up the furniture wouldn't help either.

There are lots of projects happening now, which should have been done a long time ago. Thankfully, some things were 'pushed' ahead because of us getting the Olympics.

But, when these are done do we just stop and say 'that's it - the network is perfect'? That's what we did before which is why the network can't cope with the usage and we have overcrowding and high prices to try and deter usage.

HS2 will take ages to build. Every day wasted at the start of the project gets added to the end.

 

[yorksrob]

True, but they are extensions/improvements to existing Public Transport nonetheless and should be included to counter the perception that HS2 is at the expense of all other projects.

I have to disagree there. trams and metro's, along with bus lanes etc are all very well regarding local transport. What I am interested in is the National railway network which allows me to travel more or less around the country. Outside of the big scale projects such as Thameslink 2000 and Crossrail (which, lest we forget are both themselves decades late) I don't think there have been enough re-doublings, re-openings and electrifications in the last few years.

 

[exile]

That's because all transport infrastructure has got ludicrously expensive - eg the recent £370 million road tunnel. And the benefits don't come back to the government in taxes but to the economy as a whole so it's hard in the coming climate where the government is only taking £3 in taxes for every £4 it spends to make a convincing case for any major project.

 

[Greenback]

The other side of the argument is that investing to boost the economy will provide benefits of a different sort as well as increased tax revenues form increased economic activity in the future. If I invest £50000 in starting a business, I may not see a proper return on that for 2 - 3 years, or longer.

 

[yorksrob]

That's because all transport infrastructure has got ludicrously expensive - eg the recent £370 million road tunnel. And the benefits don't come back to the government in taxes but to the economy as a whole so it's hard in the coming climate where the government is only taking £3 in taxes for every £4 it spends to make a convincing case for any major project.

What, got lidicrously expensive in the mid 1990's ?

Thameslink was completed in 1990 and NSE planned Thameslink 2000

 

[Metroland]

According to the Telegraph, consultation responses are in with 40,000 submissions with a majority against.

However, with all these things, there tends to be submissions against to as a protest, and it appears there is not a groundswell of opposition. The Heathrow third runway gained 70,000 submissions and the BskyB takeover 156,000. Millions were against road pricing, and 100,000 put in spending suggestions in a recent treasury consultation.

Overall most objections seem to have come from NIMBYS en-route, a few objections have come from people that want another route or the money spent in a different way. The Environment agency, English Heritage and the Woodland trust have reservations about the route. The Campaign to protect rural England wants to route to follow the M1.

Support for HS2 is strongest in the Midlands and North.

On the costs, some people say we cannot afford it, but the money is likely to be no more than the current rail budget. With the project itself costing roughly the same as free pensioner bus travel or 1% of the expenditure of the NHS or less than 1% of the Welfare state.

 

[jon0844]

The amount of anti-HS2 submissions pretty much prove the NIMBYism, as they've obviously worked together in those communities to fight the plans. This is what you'd expect and will probably be taken into account.

Meanwhile, everyone else - who may be for, against, don't care or don't know, have little reason to get involved. Most people would/will use HS2 at some time, or see some benefit with improved services on the legacy lines, but they aren't going to spend loads of time demanding to have it.

 

[exile]

That's about the size of it. We may be in favour of it or not, but only those who face a train line being built past their back gardens will feel passionate about it.

 

[anthony263]

I must admit, i liked pete watermans performance. Whilst some of those against HS2 may have some good points, like pete waterman said in another video which i watched on youtube, we need to start thinking about the benefits HS2 will bring to the uk as a whole.

I do hope the governemnt shows a backbone against these nimbys, i am in total support for HS2 so long as it goes to Manchester & leeds, it would certainly benefit these area's and allow improvements to services to other major deatinations such as Milton keynes, Watford etc.

As for the cost i would rather have it spent on this than stupuid projects such as the millenium dome, heathrow's 3rd runway or another motorway.

Christian wolmar has said one of the reasons why he is against HS2 is that he doesnt think it would get the number of passengers using it which governemnt has said would.

Personally as we have seen with other rail lines being re-opened could the governemnt be underestimating the number of people who would use HS2 (certainly i hope so it would certainly shut down 1 of the arguments put forward by those against HS2)

Finally another point i would like to raise what are we going to do if HS2 is dropped, certainly we could waste money on another west coast upgrade, which more than likely woul cost as much as HS2 and would it really deliver many benefits compared to HS2?

 

[exile]

Providing a shelter and seats at my local station would be a start!

 

[Gareth]

I do hope the governemnt shows a backbone against these nimbys, i am in total support for HS2 so long as it goes to Manchester & leeds, it would certainly benefit these area's and allow improvements to services to other major deatinations such as Milton keynes, Watford etc.

But Liverpool and other large cities can go and whistle. It wouldn't even be so bad if the services coming from Lime Street joined HS2 around Warrington or, at least, no further south than around Crewe. But no; Lichfield, for goodness sake. From what I gather, Liverpool trains will carry on as they do, stopping at Runcorn, Crewe & Stafford, whilst the Manchester trains will have a dedicated non-stop high speed service all the way to Birmingham International. Just how many trains per hour are they expecting to go to Manchester (and Leeds for that matter) in order to justify this dedicated route that will not serve anywhere else? Of course, Manchester will still need links to places on the old line, such as Crewe, Stoke, West Midlands towns, so Liverpool's London-bound services will probably be competing for paths with these routes and probably still lose out in priority too; not to mention trains from Scotland.

At least Sheffield might get a silly 'parkway' station somewhere within a 30 mile radius. Funny that they'd never get away with proposing a similar arrangement for Leeds.

 

[jon0844]

Providing a shelter and seats at my local station would be a start!

Well, I'm sure if HS2 is axed then you'll get your station upgraded!!