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No ticket on Elizabeth Line - Assumed I could tap in!

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datsunadz

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Hey guys,

Hoping someone can let me know what I can expect in this situation.

This morning I dropped my car off for repair to a specialist near Reading, over 100 miles from where I live. This mechanic dropped me to the local station to get a train into Reading, to then jump on the Elizabeth Line into London. I saw no ticket machine in this station, which was Aldermaston, although now Ive googled it apparently there is one, but I did not see this at all. I assumed I could buy a ticket on the train, or on arrival in Reading.

When the train arrived in Reading, I made my way to the Elizabeth Line platform, expecting I could tap in as it is all over London using my debit card. Theres no machines on the platform at all, so I boarded the train expecting just to tap out at my final destination in Custom House and that Id be charged for the full length of the line, which is basically what my journey was.

On boarding the train at reading there was a GWR employee sat opposite who I asked, do I need to swipe in or out. He'd asked how I got into the station and I told him I came in on another train. I asked him if I could buy tickets on board and he said he wasnt sure but he thought there was a TFL employee walking around. I thought worst case Id just tap out in Custom House and be charged to travel the whole line.

The ticket inspector came around and I asked to buy a ticket. He informed me that he couldnt sell me one and asked how I got on the train which I told him. He then asked for my driving licence and proceeded to ring on his phone to speak too someone else, giving them all my information. I asked two or three times when he was on the phone what he was doing and he ignored me, so I snatched my licence back off him and asked again. He then informed me he was prosecuting me for fare evasion.

He was annoyed Id taken my licence (which he'd got all the details off already) and told me he told me what he was doing with it, but I dont recall this at all. The situation ended amicably with me apologising for snatching the licence but that he should have been more informative over what was happening. He said I will receive a letter in the post. He issued the below.

If anyone could give me an idea of what's going to happen next and what amount of fine Im looking at Id appreciate it. Its the first time anything like this has happened and it was a mistake, albeit naive about how the line works, but I honestly thought Id be able to swipe out paying for a journey on the whole line as its impossible to leave any tube station without going through gates. Regarding Alveston to Reading, I dont really have an excuse, I just assumed if a guard came around I'd pay.
 

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jfollows

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Welcome to the forum!

However you need to know that TfL tend to prosecute on fares issues, they either issue a Penalty Fare (which they didn’t do in your case) or they write to you to get your explanation. Unlike with GWR or GTR, they do not tend to settle out of court.

That said, there is limited evidence that the use of a solicitor may make them more likely to settle. However this is by no means guaranteed and may simply involve more cost for you with the same outcome.

Aldermaston to Reading: the problem is that unless there is no means to buy a ticket before boarding, then boarding without a ticket is a criminal offence.

I am sure this is all stuff you didn’t want to hear. A prosecution will result in a fine, a minor criminal record and costs.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecutions-policy.pdf may explain TfL’s approach further.
 
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Trainman40083

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I wonder where the ticket machine is at Aldermaston is, then?
 

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WesternLancer

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This looks like bad news to me - if the OP had happened to regularise the ticket situation (or even had their details taken down) whist still in GWR territory or whilst dealing with GWR staff, things would have been better (or perhaps notably less worse...) than by the time they were encountered by a member of TfL inspection staff.

TfL default position is to report everyone (AIUI) without valid tickets for 'investigation' (which is usually the start of the prosecution process) or issue Penalty Fares - so the TfL staff member indeed probably could not issue you with a ticket even if they had wanted to.

According to this GWR map Aldermarston is a 'Penalty Fare station' which I assume strictly speaking means you would not have been able to buy a ticket on board that train (though in practice a guard might have sold you one but you should never reply on that)


But I note the uploaded TfL slip only details the journey starting at Reading.

I guess @datsunadz can be helped to know what to expect and navigate through the process with advice from here in the hope it's possible to achieve the least worst outcome of this.
 

Watershed

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(Almost?) all trains at Aldermaston are DOO-operated, so they would not typically have anyone checking tickets. They would only have RPIs, on an occasional basis.

The fact that the OP started their journey at an unbarriered station and failed to make any attempt to buy a ticket wouldn't exactly go in their favour if TfL were to bring a RoRA prosecution for ticketless travel with intent to avoid payment. Similarly, the maximum fare for not touching in is far less than the fare from Reading, so this is likely a well-known trick used by those keen to avoid their fares.

That said, experience tells us that TfL don't usually prosecute under RoRA. They prefer to prosecute for the Byelaw offence of entering a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket. I suspect the OP will 'get away' with the first part of their journey but will face a Byelaws prosecution by TfL for the second part, with very limited scope to get an out of Court settlement.
 

AlterEgo

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We see very few "simple, no ticket" cases involving TfL here - almost everyone dealing with TfL who comes here has been fraudulently rinsing someone's Freedom Pass for months which is very serious compared to what the OP did.

It is not possible to say with certainty what the outcome is, but we do know it will be binary. They will either

- prosecute under the TfL Bylaws, or
- issue a warning letter.

An out of court settlement is one option TfL say they do not ever consider, and FOI requests back up this assertion.
 

datsunadz

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Thanks for all your replies guys!

I wonder where the ticket machine is at Aldermaston is, then?
The opposite platform I came in from unfortunately, although this is no excuse. I genuinely had no idea there was a machine here, if there was Id have used it.

Like I say, Im not a frequent rail user, Im not from the area. I thought I could buy a ticket onboard theres no excuse for missing the machine.

Once you've arrived in Reading station via a local line, you're inside the barrier. I went to the platform to get on the Elizabeth line expecting to swipe on and theres nothing there. The guy who issued the fine said I should have physically left the station, then come back in to check in.

Reading to Custom House is almost the full length of the line so I assumed Id just pay this swiping out. Anyway, these details are probably of no consequence to them if they give no option to settle out of court. This seems absolutely mental to me though when its a first offence by a non regular traveller and something that can be semi explained!
Its insane they'd prefer to drag their customers through court, whacking them with huge fines, when the man who initiates this could just sell you a ticket on board.
 

Trainman40083

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Probably more about they want to do away with onboard staff. I seem to recall, the Elizabeth Line at Reading gets a few mentions in this section of the forum. Same issue..
 

datsunadz

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But they have staff walking around on the train issuing people with prosecutions. He could just have easily have taken my money and sold me a ticket
 

Trainman40083

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In the scenario here, where people change trains at Reading, what signage would people see as you near the Elizabeth Line? Been years since I was in Reading.
 

datsunadz

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That's not how it works, because if it did (and it used to) people would only pay when challenged. There has to be a deterrent.

But then if people refuse to pay, prosecute them. So its exactly the same in my mind.

Anyway whats happened has happened, I'd just like to know what to expect and how much of my hard earned theyre going to try and steal if I dont want to be dragged through court and if theres any advice that might help at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In the scenario here, where people change trains at Reading, what signage would people see as you near the Elizabeth Line? Been years since I was in Reading.
Ill have to try and get some photographs on my return trip. I honestly didnt notice anything saying to swipe in etc. They clearly assume this has been done when you come into the station as you should have swiped in.

Is the argument that they say that if you only swipe out, they will charge for the journey on the whole line not valid? Theres no way Id have been able to get out at Custom House without swiping out, and thus paying the fare!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

From the TFL site:

What happens if you don't touch in and out​

If you don't touch in and out, we cannot tell where you've travelled from or to, so your journey will be incomplete.
As we cannot work out the right fare for your journey, we'll charge you a maximum fare.

Maximum fares​

AreaPeakOff-peak
All stations in Zones 1-9 (except Heathrow Express)Up to £10.40Up to £7.00
Broxbourne, Rye House, St Margarets, Ware and Hertford East£10.60£8.00
Chafford Hundred, Grays, Ockenden and Purfleet£10.60£9.40
Dartford and Swanley£10.40£7.00
Epsom£11.20£8.30
Shenfield£12.10£9.10
Watford Junction£11.90£8.00
Merstham£15.30£10.30
Cuffley£12.30£9.20
Bayford and Hertford North£13.40£10.30
Redhill, Earlswood£16.80£10.90
Salfords, Horley£17.10£11.10
Gatwick Airport£22.10£13.50
Heathrow Express (from Paddington to Heathrow)£25£25
St Pancras International (East Midlands platforms)£16.60£12.30
London Victoria (Gatwick Express platforms)£24.00£24.00
Brookmans Park and Welham Green£12.40£9.00
Welwyn Garden City£14.50£11.20
Luton Airport Parkway£19.50£15.10
Reading£30.40£13.60
 

jfollows

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No, the point is that people deliberately don’t buy a ticket and get free travel on many trains, and if only paying normal fare when challenged then they pay for a small number of journeys. If there is no sanction for doing this the fare evasion problem gets even worse than it is. There has to be a disincentive for only paying when challenged, other than by vastly increasing the number of onboard staff to police every train.

But this doesn’t help you I know.
 

WesternLancer

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But they have staff walking around on the train issuing people with prosecutions. He could just have easily have taken my money and sold me a ticket
But I don't think they have these people on every train checking every ticket of everyone boarding at every stop 'just in case' - it's spot check system based on the idea that you buy before you board and if you don't you get hit.

As you might tend to get in a big city metro system as compared with a more rural local trains service with trains of two to four carriages with a guard who can keep an eye on people joining and leaving.

Obviously it might have been better if the Inspector had noted your non local address, listed your explanation and issued a Penalty Fare instead but that does not always happen.

You have my sympathy of course.
 
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Anyway whats happened has happened, I'd just like to know what to expect and how much of my hard earned theyre going to try and steal if I dont want to be dragged through court and if theres any advice that might help at all.
I'd suggest that when it comes to seeking leniency from them, a bit of attitude adjustment would be advisable, rather than trying to take the moral high ground about them stealing from you!
 

WesternLancer

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I'd just like to know what to expect and how much of my hard earned theyre going to try and steal if I dont want to be dragged through court and if theres any advice that might help at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


This is the problem unfortunately

TfL don't ask for your hard earned instead of dragging you through court (essentially offering an out of court settlement not to prosecute which is what GWR might have been likely to have done) - they either
a) drag you through court (well it might be done under the Single Justice Procedure which is basically paper based if you admit guilty you don't have to go to court usually AIUI) - people here can advise what to expect
or
b) if you can persuade them, issue you with a warning letter

For (b) we do see that people who engage a specialist fares evasion solicitor seem to have a higher probability of achieving this outcome (obviously at the costs of solicitors fees)
 

jfollows

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Elsewhere on the forum we have noted, if it helps.
Manak Solicitors

Fare Evasion Solicitors | Kent & London | Manak Solicitors

Manak Solicitors: Skilled legal defence for fare evasion cases. Rely on our experienced team to protect your rights, challenge penalties, and guide you through the process.

manaksolicitors.co.uk

Makwanas

Fare Evasion Solicitors London | High Success Rate | TFL Solicitors

Facing prosecution for fare evasion? Our expert fare evasion solicitors in London fight to protect your record. With deep expertise in TFL solicitors' defence, we help you avoid fines, criminal convictions, and lasting consequences. Act now—secure expert legal representation today!

www.makwanas.co.uk

Gray Hooper Holt

www.grayhooperholt.co.uk

We have a specialist fare evasion legal team that are ready and waiting to help you.
 

datsunadz

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is the
You also selectively omit from your cut/paste from the same page in post #12


I understand this, but its not a selective omission. Once youre on the train, having not realised all of this, it was my assumption Id pay the fare on tapping out. At no point in any of this was I purposely avoiding paying anything, I have travelled through TFL for work on many occasions before paying every time.
This was an odd situation where I came from a totally alien station and thats whats caused my issue!
Any idea what kind of penalties I can expect. They talk about a minimum of £250 plus loads of additional bits and bobs. Its whether this is cheaper than a solicitor!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Elsewhere on the forum we have noted, if it helps.

Appreciate this thank you!

I guess I just need to wait and see what comes through the post.
 
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WesternLancer

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is the


I understand this, but its not a selective omission. Once youre on the train, having not realised all of this, it was my assumption Id pay the fare on tapping out. At no point in any of this was I purposely avoiding paying anything, I have travelled through TFL for work on many occasions before paying every time.
This was an odd situation where I came from a totally alien station and thats whats caused my issue!
Any idea what kind of penalties I can expect. They talk about a minimum of £250 plus loads of additional bits and bobs. Its whether this is cheaper than a solicitor!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Appreciate this thank you!

I guess I just need to wait and see what comes through the post.
There is a formula for what you would get fined if it went to court + costs etc (I've seen it posted on here before - not got it to hand myself)

Solicitor might cost upwards of £600 (tho now you have the names of the firms you could get quotes) -tho of course they might still not be able to prevent court...and you'd still have to pay their fees.

I guess at this stage, yes, wait to see what they send you and then head here for advice on how best to respond to it

There is a TfL revenue enforcement policy that you can read too by way of background preparation - which sets out their approach.
I've seen that linked to on other threads relating to TfL cases.
 

jfollows

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There is a TfL revenue enforcement policy that you can read too by way of background preparation - which sets out their approach.
I've seen that linked to on other threads relating to TfL cases.
Post #2 above actually!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...pped-at-clapham-junction.269135/#post-6805004
The Magistrates Courts will typically deal with an offender convicted under byelaw 18 by way of a "band A fine".

The amount of a "band A fine" is:
  • 50% of one week's wages, with a maximum fine of £1,000, if the offender has a job and has declared their income on the court paperwork;
  • £60, if the offender is a student, or on benefits; or
  • £220, if the offender has not engaged with the court case or provided the necessary information.
The fine would then be adjusted downwards if the offender had pleaded guilty, with a reduction of one-third for a plea at the first opportunity, tapering down to one-tenth for a plea at the start of a trial. As you have chosen not to plead guilty this will not apply to you.

There are also three more amounts to pay:
  • A surcharge, which is 40% of the fine
  • Compensation for the unpaid fare
  • The prosecution costs
The amount TfL is claiming for the latter two items should be on your SJP paperwork, but the costs may increase if there has to be a hearing in court.

I say "typically" above for two reasons:
  1. There is no entry in the sentencing guidelines for Railway Byelaw offences. This is unfortunate, as they occur very frequently indeed. The court will usually use the section 5 (1) Regulation of Railways Act guideline instead.
  2. The court is not rigidly bound to follow sentencing guidelines, and it can raise or lower the punishment due to the specific facts of any individual case.
I am no expert or lawyer, just posting from the forum.

A fines calculator is at https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/fine-calculator/
 
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John R

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, it was my assumption Id pay the fare on tapping out.
And just to clarify, if you'd have tapped out at Custom House, you would have been charged £10.40 (or maybe £7.00) according to your post 12 above.

Whereas the Anytime Single fare from Aldermaston to Custom House is £40.60. So you would have been paying far less than you should have for the journey.

Even had you been travelling off peak, a return is £37.00, but you'd likely have paid £14 with two journeys where you only tapped at Custom House.
 

datsunadz

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And just to clarify, if you'd have tapped out at Custom House, you would have been charged £10.40 (or maybe £7.00) according to your post 12 above.

Whereas the Anytime Single fare from Aldermaston to Custom House is £40.60. So you would have been paying far less than you should have for the journey.

Even had you been travelling off peak, a return is £37.00, but you'd likely have paid £14 with two journeys where you only tapped at Custom House

Thanks for that. However I don't understand as Reading is listed as 30.40 or 13.60 depending on peak or offpeak.

The page says they will charge maximum fare.

Why would the maximum fair be less than the normal fare?

The Aldermaston section is irrelevant as that's not TFL, although I see your point.
 

John R

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It’s not irrelevant, as your total journey for which you didn’t have a ticket was Aldermaston to Custom House, for which National Rail quotes a through fare. And so the argument “I’d have tapped out and paid the maximum fare” doesn’t hold. You wouldn’t have paid anything like the appropriate fare for your journey.
 

datsunadz

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It’s not irrelevant, as your total journey for which you didn’t have a ticket was Aldermaston to Custom House, for which National Rail quotes a through fare. And so the argument “I’d have tapped out and paid the maximum fare” doesn’t hold. You wouldn’t have paid anything like the appropriate fare for your journey.

I understand, but why would the fare paid, for the Reading to Custom House part of the journey, be less than if I had tapped in when TFL say on their site they'd charge maximum fare??

I'm not disputing the Aldermaston section which was how this entire problem started! But if that's not a TFL route, surely they can't prosecute me for that?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Im not denying it's my own lack of awareness that meant I didn't pay from Aldermaston. The ticket machine appears to be on the carpark side of platform one. I entered the station from the other side on platform 2, crossed the bridge on to platform one, and didn't see the machine at all.
 

dosxuk

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I understand, but why would the fare paid, for the Reading to Custom House part of the journey, be less than if I had tapped in when TFL say on their site they'd charge maximum fare??
How would they know you have travelled from Reading when you only touch out at Custom House?
 

datsunadz

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How would they know you have travelled from Reading when you only touch out at Custom House?
As per the link I posted, if you only touch out it says that they assume you have travelled the full length of the line which is maximum fare.
 

island

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As per the link I posted, if you only touch out it says that they assume you have travelled the full length of the line which is maximum fare.
There are many ways to get to Custom House. The charges in the TfL page are based on the station your unmatched tap occurs at.

I hope we have now clarified this sufficiently for you to focus on the more serious issue that you are liable to be prosecuted for ticketless travel, and see if we can reduce the seriousness of the situation.
 

davews

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Just an aside. I understand the revenue inspectors cannot actually see whether a card used for contactless has actually been used to tap in, they can only check whether it is a valid card and not a blocked one. If the OP had just presented his card to the chap it may have been accepted? Not to deny though that an offence has been committed.
 
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