Honesty box / permit to travel ideas

[Buzby]

Does anyone remember when there used to be an ‘Honesty Box’, where in similar situations you could place the cash fare inside and leave with a clear conscience?

I think it was in the late 60’s that I saw one attached to the (closed) Booking Office window. I arrived at the station and had to cross the footbridge to lodge my coinage.

Maybe it’s time it returned?

 

[Tester]

Does anyone remember when there used to be an ‘Honesty Box’, where in similar situations you could place the cash fare inside and leave with a clear conscience? I think it was in the late 60’s that I saw one attached to the (closed) Booking Office window. I arrived at the station and had to cross the footbridge to lodge my coinage. Maybe it’s time it returned?

You will probably not be surprised to hear that these exist in Japan - and I have observed them used.

 

[londonbridge]

I once went to an away game at West Brom, got on the metro, conductor was collecting fares but hadn’t reached me by the time we were approaching The Hawthorns.

I managed to approach him and said “I need a ticket, I’m getting off next stop”. He replied “just get off, mate”. So I followed his instruction.

After the match there was no one on the platform collecting fares, got on, same thing, I was perfectly willing to say what had happened on the outward journey and offer to buy a return, free ride both ways, I offered to pay, they declined to take payment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You will probably not be surprised to hear that these exist in Japan - and I have observed them used.

There are plenty of honesty box car parks in rural parts of the UK. And yes, most people do put money in them.

 

[The exile]

There are plenty of honesty box car parks in rural parts of the UK. And yes, most people do put money in them.

And depending on the circumstances, they may well put more in than anyone would dare to actually charge!

 

[Tester]

There are plenty of honesty box car parks in rural parts of the UK. And yes, most people do put money in them.

Yes indeed.

Temporarily continuing the off topic veer - a (non-rail) Japanese feature is open honesty boxes outside station newsagents, so you can take your own change as you help yourself to a paper!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Temporarily continuing the off topic veer - a (non-rail) Japanese feature is open honesty boxes outside station newsagents, so you can take your own change as you help yourself to a paper!

I've certainly seen that in station newsagents, as well as the less formal option of just waving the paper at the person on the desk and putting the change on the desk while they were busy making coffees.

I seem to recall the smaller Smiths in Euston (not there any more, having been removed to allow the opening out of the 8-11 ramp) having one explicitly marked as such in the 2000s, though I don't doubt a fair few got nicked from there and it didn't last that long, though people not carrying cash has made the idea a bit redundant and the self-checkouts have largely replaced the idea.

 

[Tester]

I've certainly seen that in station newsagents as well as the less formal option of just waving the paper at the person on the desk and putting the change on the desk while they were busy making coffees. I seem to recall the smaller Smiths in Euston (not there any more, having been removed to allow the opening out of the 8-11 ramp) having one explicitly marked as such in the 2000s, though I don't doubt a fair few got nicked from there and it didn't last that long, though people not carrying cash has made the idea a bit redundant and the self-checkouts have largely replaced the idea.

Yes I can certainly recall such here in the 1960s.

Of course buying a paper at all is now far from the norm!

 

[frankmoh]

I wonder if we should bring back Permit To Travel Machines. I'm sure the vast majority of the UK has at least 5 pence in a pocket somewhere.

 

[Haywain]

I wonder if we should bring back Permit To Travel Machines. I'm sure the vast majority of the UK has at least 5 pence in a pocket somewhere.

I never carry coins unless I have to use cash and get them as change. I am sure there are many people who are similar.

 

[Tester]

I wonder if we should bring back Permit To Travel Machines. I'm sure the vast majority of the UK has at least 5 pence in a pocket somewhere.

I suspect that they don't!

It doesn't matter though - collecting 5p is more trouble than it's worth.

What does have value is a way of indicating that a given person was at a given station at a given time, and coins are not needed to achieve that.

Thinking aloud, so that the collective knowledge and ideas of the forum can refine my outline suggestion, how about a modern 'Promise to pay' machine (or TVM add-on) which achieves that?

The place and time are easy. The person is less easy, but certainly doable. For example the machine could.....

1. Capture an image of the passenger
2. Capture an image of something that the passenger possesses
3. Collect the passenger's name for on-train identification
4. Collect identifying information, e.g. certain digits of a document held
4. Etc.etc.

The machine then provides an output incorporating the three requirements, which could be.....

1. A printed 'ticket'
2. A displayed, easily memorable code
3. Merely a confirmation of information capture to a database

It could also display a QR type code, but use of this would need to be optional (no camera phone required for travel!)

Allowing for necessary exemptions for passengers who are unable to manage this, the Pareto principle (or 80-20 rule) applies, and is a considerable improvement on the current situation

It would certainly raise the bar for Joe/Josephine average doughnutter/short farer, and would increase the comfort factor for Joe/Josephine honest passenger.

How about it?

 

[Trainbike46]

So, a promise to pay notice as issued by Northern machines already, but with extra steps?

I can see the point of a promise to pay notice that includes:
-station it was issued at
-time and date it was issued

But why would you include anything else? It just adds complications

 

[PeterC]

I never carry coins unless I have to use cash and get them as change. I am sure there are many people who are similar.

I carry a couple of notes for emergencies but never coin unless I have been given change. I keep some coin in the car for parking but that is rapidly becoming redundant now. Even my poppy was paid for by card this year.

 

[Tester]

So, a promise to pay notice as issued by Northern machines already, but with extra steps?

I can see the point of a promise to pay notice that includes:
-station it was issued at
-time and date it was issued

But why would you include anything else? It just adds complications

As I understand it, promise to pay is a Northern thing, and only exists to deal with their TVMs which do not accept cash - but the problem is more widespread than that.

There needs to be a way that an honest passenger can deal with the ticket or payment method they want not being available at a TVM. Therefore, as a minimum, some form of permit to travel/promise to pay facility should be available in association with every TVM.

Consider the situation where I prefer to pay by card, but the ticket I want is not available, which can happen for many reasons. Picking two which we have had recently, for a last train which is running late, or due to fake compulsory reservations, a journey planner TVM decides that no service is available. There is also the situation where I simply may not be able to find the correct ticket from the available options - I'm not often flummoxed, but I have been, and it must be worse for less experienced passengers. Goodness, I might want an All Line Rover - and I certainly won't be paying cash for that!

I should be able to do something to regularise my position. This could be a promise to pay, but would need to permit card payment (the thing that suddenly seems to have become contentious), or could be by the TVM offering a 'buy after commencement of journey' ticket for a given price (actual price subject to discussion), which can be freely excessed to the correct ticket at the next opportunity by paying the difference (or indeed being refunded if the correct ticket is cheaper), with no allegation of dishonesty.

I absolutely should not have to pretend I don't have a card, nor be obliged to carry cash, to comply with somebody's idea of an appropriate Condition of Travel.

A 'Pay when challenged' type is not going to have no cash when challenged - otherwise they wouldn't be 'Pay when challenged'! And those with no intention of paying at all are irrelevant to any of this. But those wanting to do the right thing seem to have been forgotten about, and risk being lumped together entirely inappropriately.

The actual mechanics of all this of course need to be thought through. It may be that place, date and time of issue is deemed sufficient, but there seems to be resistance to the promise to pay concept - the Northern version seems to be rather a grudging compromise to save the costs of providing cash TVMs, and nobody else seems interested, yet when permit to travel machines were introduced (pre card of course) there was a clear understanding that not all tickets could be offered. Whilst modern TVMs are much more sophisticated, no machine can sell everything, and journey planner TVMs have actually created new problems.

The fundamental point is that formally marking the start of a journey is entirely appropriate, and the mechanism to do so needs to be available to everyone.


TVM = Ticket Vending Machine

 

[Taunton]

You will probably not be surprised to hear that these exist in Japan - and I have observed them used.

They used to exist on the buses in some towns, which had conductors, were frequent, and also notably cheap fares, just a few pence, and were quite extensively used for short journeys of less than a mile, people would get on and off again while the conductor was engaged upstairs, and quite possibly had their coins for the fare in their hand. The "Uncollected fares" box was by the exit at the back.

 

[father_jack]

Does anyone remember when there used to be an ‘Honesty Box’, where in similar situations you could place the cash fare inside and leave with a clear conscience? I think it was in the late 60’s that I saw one attached to the (closed) Booking Office window. I arrived at the station and had to cross the footbridge to lodge my coinage. Maybe it’s time it returned?

The last ticket issuing system (TIS) that GWR used (FujitsuSTAR) had a "Sundry Debit" item called "CONSCIENCE MONEY" and cheques and even cash occasionally turned up in the post or was handed in in an envelope through the window when these situations arose, sometimes with a note "puked in train last Friday night sorry" or "no guard on xxxx from yyyy to zzzz" last night......

The new TIS doesn't appear to have the facility.

 

[Trainbike46]

As I understand it, promise to pay is a Northern thing, and only exists to deal with their TVMs which do not accept cash - but the problem is more widespread than that.

There needs to be a way that an honest passenger can deal with the ticket or payment method they want not being available at a TVM. Therefore, as a minimum, some form of permit to travel/promise to pay facility should be available in association with every TVM.

Consider the situation where I prefer to pay by card, but the ticket I want is not available, which can happen for many reasons. Picking two which we have had recently, for a last train which is running late, or due to fake compulsory reservations, a journey planner TVM decides that no service is available. There is also the situation where I simply may not be able to find the correct ticket from the available options - I'm not often flummoxed, but I have been, and it must be worse for less experienced passengers. Goodness, I might want an All Line Rover - and I certainly won't be paying cash for that!

I should be able to do something to regularise my position. This could be a promise to pay, but would need to permit card payment (the thing that suddenly seems to have become contentious), or could be by the TVM offering a 'buy after commencement of journey' ticket for a given price (actual price subject to discussion), which can be freely excessed to the correct ticket at the next opportunity by paying the difference (or indeed being refunded if the correct ticket is cheaper), with no allegation of dishonesty.

I absolutely should not have to pretend I don't have a card, nor be obliged to carry cash, to comply with somebody's idea of an appropriate Condition of Travel.

A 'Pay when challenged' type is not going to have no cash when challenged - otherwise they wouldn't be 'Pay when challenged'! And those with no intention of paying at all are irrelevant to any of this. But those wanting to do the right thing seem to have been forgotten about, and risk being lumped together entirely inappropriately.

The actual mechanics of all this of course need to be thought through. It may be that place, date and time of issue is deemed sufficient, but there seems to be resistance to the promise to pay concept - the Northern version seems to be rather a grudging compromise to save the costs of providing cash TVMs, and nobody else seems interested, yet when permit to travel machines were introduced (pre card of course) there was a clear understanding that not all tickets could be offered. Whilst modern TVMs are much more sophisticated, no machine can sell everything, and journey planner TVMs have actually created new problems.

The fundamental point is that formally marking the start of a journey is entirely appropriate, and the mechanism to do so needs to be available to everyone.


TVM = Ticket Vending Machine

I'm mostly in agreement.

Maybe all TVMs should have two buttons; one saying "I want to pay by cash or Rail Travel Vouchers", and another saying "I can't find the ticket I want".

In both cases it would produce a promise to pay notice, including the location, date, and time, as well as which button was pressed to get the promise to pay notice.

 

[station_road]

I'm mostly in agreement.

Maybe all TVMs should have two buttons; one saying "I want to pay by cash or Rail Travel Vouchers", and another saying "I can't find the ticket I want".

In both cases it would produce a promise to pay notice, including the location, date, and time, as well as which button was pressed to get the promise to pay notice.

And what would stop everyone pressing the "I can't find the ticket I want" and then only paying when challenged?

 

[Trainbike46]

And what would stop everyone pressing the "I can't find the ticket I want" and then only paying when challenged?

Nothing, I guess, but then there is nothing preventing someone from carrying cash or RTVs and getting a current promise to pay notice from northern. Or from just boarding on a line where buying on board is permitted. I do think most people would just buy the ticket they want from the TVM if they are interacting with it anyway.

The purpose is to enable people who wish to buy a ticket that is not available from the ticket machine, to obtain confirmation of where they originated. A second advantage is that it creates a record of where many passengers are requesting promise to pay notices, and therefore where ticket checking should be prioritised to avoid missing on revenue.

I guess you could have the TVM connect them to a helpline first, but that would only work if the helpline is actually available.

In NI, where buying on board is generally allowed, it is not uncommon for the guard to go through the train and ask if anyone wishes to buy a ticket. Then, after everyone has had the chance to buy, does the guard do a ticket check. There is no reason this couldn't be applied in England as well.

Note that my original post was in response to someone proposing a promise to pay system that would require significant amounts of personal data, which could never be justified in my view. It was also highly complex, so would be costly to implement for no clear advantage at all. I have quoted the post in question below.

I suspect that they don't!

It doesn't matter though - collecting 5p is more trouble than it's worth.

What does have value is a way of indicating that a given person was at a given station at a given time, and coins are not needed to achieve that.

Thinking aloud, so that the collective knowledge and ideas of the forum can refine my outline suggestion, how about a modern 'Promise to pay' machine (or TVM add-on) which achieves that?

The place and time are easy. The person is less easy, but certainly doable. For example the machine could.....

1. Capture an image of the passenger
2. Capture an image of something that the passenger possesses
3. Collect the passenger's name for on-train identification
4. Collect identifying information, e.g. certain digits of a document held
4. Etc.etc.

The machine then provides an output incorporating the three requirements, which could be.....

1. A printed 'ticket'
2. A displayed, easily memorable code
3. Merely a confirmation of information capture to a database

It could also display a QR type code, but use of this would need to be optional (no camera phone required for travel!)

Allowing for necessary exemptions for passengers who are unable to manage this, the Pareto principle (or 80-20 rule) applies, and is a considerable improvement on the current situation

It would certainly raise the bar for Joe/Josephine average doughnutter/short farer, and would increase the comfort factor for Joe/Josephine honest passenger.

How about it?

 

[Tester]

And what would stop everyone pressing the "I can't find the ticket I want" and then only paying when challenged?

Nothing

Your suggestion?

 

[The exile]

And what would stop everyone pressing the "I can't find the ticket I want" and then only paying when challenged?

How about nationally standardised TVMs that (ideally) sell all possible tickets for immediate travel or least all can’t sell the same ones so unless the machine was broken, staff would know if you were telling porkies.