No possible opportunity to purchase ticket?

[Quincy]

Hi all

Yesterday I was travelling from Portway Park and Ride to Clifton Down and wanted to pay with cash.

Neither stations has a ticket office or machine that accepts any form of cash. So I got onboard and intended to purchase my ticket onboard.

It wasn’t packed but there was still enough passengers to make ticket checking reasonable (imo).

However no one came round to check (and allow the purchase of) tickets.

In this situation what happens? Is it just a free ride for me, due to not being able to buy a ticket?

Could I theoretically get in trouble for not purchasing tickets over a couple of journeys?

For context, I rarely take this trip, so it’s not really something I’d do often. Just curious for any similar trips I take in the future.

 

[The exile]

Hi all, yesterday I was travelling from Portway Park and Ride to Clifton down and wanted to pay with cash. Neither stations has a ticket office or machine that accepts any form of cash. So I got onboard and intended to purchase my ticket onboard. It wasn’t packed but there was still enough passengers to make ticket checking reasonable (imo). However no one came round to check (and allow the purchase of) tickets. In this situation what happens. Is it just a free ride for me due to not being able to buy a ticket? Could I theoretically get in trouble for not purchasing tickets over a couple of journeys? For context I rarely take this trip so it’s not really something I’d do often. Just curious for any similar trips I take in the future.

As you were paying cash - no ticket issuing facility was available. You are not required to seek out anyone on board to buy one from (which does not imply it’s ok to hide from them!) - I’m surprised no one came round as they’re usually quite vigilant on the Beach line.
Being Sunday, maybe staff shortage - it seems usually to be a third crew member doing tickets.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

= £1.60 fare effectively not paid? (Quite cheap for a five mile trip).

 

[Quincy]

= £1.60 fare effectively not paid? (Quite cheap for a five mile trip).

It is honestly quite a cheap line, cheaper than the bus in most situations. But does add up overtime

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

As you were paying cash - no ticket issuing facility was available. You are not required to seek out anyone on board to buy one from (which does not imply it’s ok to hide from them!) - I’m surprised no one came round as they’re usually quite vigilant on the Beach line.
Being Sunday, maybe staff shortage - it seems usually to be a third crew member doing tickets.

Yeah I was quite surprised that no one came round. Not hiding from anyone here however just curious if there was any legal issues with it but it seems like there isn’t.

 

[Watershed]

Legally speaking the fare is still owed, so if you wanted to do the right thing you would contact GWR and offer the fare to them. In reality none of the TOCs are set up to accept payments under such situations, and so if you don't encounter a purchasing opportunity during the journey, you won't have to pay.

It's worth noting that under a change to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) towards the end of this month, cash will have to be your only available method of payment for you to rely on it as a reason for buying onboard (from stations where the ticket machines don't accept cash). In other words, if you'd be able to pay by card then you are required to do so.

That's going to be hard to enforce in most cases, but if a member of staff comes through the train and sees you're carrying cards when you get your wallet out, they might ask questions. Just something to bear in mind.

 

[Tester]

Legally speaking the fare is still owed, so if you wanted to do the right thing you would contact GWR and offer the fare to them. In reality none of the TOCs are set up to accept payments under such situations, and so if you don't encounter a purchasing opportunity during the journey, you won't have to pay.

It's worth noting that under a change to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) towards the end of this month, cash will have to be your only available method of payment for you to rely on it as a reason for buying onboard (from stations where the ticket machines don't accept cash). In other words, if you'd be able to pay by card then you are required to do so.

That's going to be hard to enforce in most cases, but if a member of staff comes through the train and sees you're carrying cards when you get your wallet out, they might ask questions. Just something to bear in mind.

To which the answer may be, "Life's a bit tricky at the moment, and I daren't use my cards". Or, "My controlling partner will beat me up if he thinks I've used my cards 'wrongly' (I keep them for life and death matters, which buying a rail ticket isn't)".

Are they going to rip the cards out of your wallet and try them?

I have come across some stupid rules, but this one is right up there.

 

[Watershed]

I agree it has all sorts of potential to be problematic. I suppose it is more intended for scenarios where someone says they couldn't buy a ticket with cash at the station - and then whips out a card, or Google/Apple Wallet on their phone, to pay the guard...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree it has all sorts of potential to be problematic. I suppose it is more intended for scenarios where someone says they couldn't buy a ticket with cash at the station - and then whips out a card, or Google/Apple Wallet on their phone, to pay the guard...

Indeed. I think the idea of it is just to back up Northern's approach that if you produce a card on board you're probably getting an MG11 or PF depending on who you produced it to. Most of these changes appear to be being done to back up what staff are actually doing on the ground but arguably shouldn't be (and it'd not surprise me to see time excesses coming out of the right to issue on board next time too - certainly some TOCs treat these as "no ticket held" if there was a booking office at the origin even if they aren't supposed to).

Though anyone concerned needs simply take the cash out of their wallet on the station and put it separately in their pocket. Rail staff don't have the right or remit to search your pockets. BTP would presumably have that right, but BTP are very rarely present on board and would be unlikely to get involved in something like this unless the customer abused staff over it.

 

[The exile]

Legally speaking the fare is still owed, so if you wanted to do the right thing you would contact GWR and offer the fare to them. In reality none of the TOCs are set up to accept payments under such situations, and so if you don't encounter a purchasing opportunity during the journey, you won't have to pay.

It's worth noting that under a change to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) towards the end of this month, cash will have to be your only available method of payment for you to rely on it as a reason for buying onboard (from stations where the ticket machines don't accept cash). In other words, if you'd be able to pay by card then you are required to do so.

That's going to be hard to enforce in most cases, but if a member of staff comes through the train and sees you're carrying cards when you get your wallet out, they might ask questions. Just something to bear in mind.

They might see you carrying cards - that’s no proof that they would be any good for paying for a ticket. I doubt even BTP have the right to see your bank balance without a warrant.

 

[stadler]

Hi all, yesterday I was travelling from Portway Park and Ride to Clifton down and wanted to pay with cash. Neither stations has a ticket office or machine that accepts any form of cash. So I got onboard and intended to purchase my ticket onboard. It wasn’t packed but there was still enough passengers to make ticket checking reasonable (imo). However no one came round to check (and allow the purchase of) tickets. In this situation what happens. Is it just a free ride for me due to not being able to buy a ticket? Could I theoretically get in trouble for not purchasing tickets over a couple of journeys? For context I rarely take this trip so it’s not really something I’d do often. Just curious for any similar trips I take in the future.

It is free.

I would say roughly around 50% of my train journeys are free for this very reason.

If i board at a station with no ticket machine or with a card only ticket machine (which i do multiple times a week) then most of the time i just travel for free as the Guards and Conductors and OBSs very rarely bother to walk through the train and sell tickets. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing this and it is not fare evasion.

It is the train companies fault for not bothering to have cash accepting facilities at the station and for not bothering to get their staff to walk through and sell tickets. Certainly good though as it means you get a free journey.

 

[Trainbike46]

It's worth noting that under a change to the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) towards the end of this month, cash will have to be your only available method of payment for you to rely on it as a reason for buying onboard (from stations where the ticket machines don't accept cash). In other words, if you'd be able to pay by card then you are required to do so.

That's an insane new requirement, but then there were more insane changes in the new NRCoT. In my view, putting these kind of (non-enforceable) requirements in the contract is just a bad idea.

That's going to be hard to enforce in most cases, but if a member of staff comes through the train and sees you're carrying cards when you get your wallet out, they might ask questions. Just something to bear in mind.

Having a physical card on you does not mean you were able to use it - the card may be blocked, or there may be insufficient balance. Regardless, it is none of the Railways' business. Other people have already pointed out more serious cases that could apply.

What was wrong with Northern's approach of a "promise to pay" notice from a ticket machine if you want to pay by cash? Arguably, by getting a promise to pay notice you have stated that you wish to pay with cash, so there is no need for a card payment to be offered if one of those is produced.

 

[speedy1]

Though anyone concerned needs simply take the cash out of their wallet on the station and put it separately in their pocket.

I have the opposite opinion. We should not travel in such fear. It's bad enough as it is, sorry. There's a line.

Carry on as normal and just say you're paying in cash. If they think they have grounds, let them do their worst – then you can complain to your MP and raise awareness online etc.

Being able to infer a desire and an original intent and ability to pay by card just by its mere appearance?! What court would uphold that!

 

[TUC]

That's an insane new requirement, but then there were more insane changes in the new NRCoT. In my view, putting these kind of (non-enforceable) requirements in the contract is just a bad idea.

Having a physical card on you does not mean you were able to use it - the card may be blocked, or there may be insufficient balance. Regardless, it is none of the Railways' business. Other people have already pointed out more serious cases that could apply.

If the card is blocked or there is insufficient balance, then clearly you are not able to use it.

 

[Tester]

If the card is blocked or there is insufficient balance, then clearly you are not able to use it.

On this we are all in agreement!

 

[Trainbike46]

If the card is blocked or there is insufficient balance, then clearly you are not able to use it.

Exactly. So having a physical card does not mean having a useable card, as I stated in my post.

By making card payments a requirement where possible, the railway is introducing more unenforceable conditions in NRCoT.

 

[sheff1]

As you were paying cash - no ticket issuing facility was available. You are not required to seek out anyone on board to buy one from (which does not imply it’s ok to hide from them!) - I’m surprised no one came round as they’re usually quite vigilant on the Beach line.

Recently I travelled from Avonmouth where I was surprised to find there was no TVM at all, never mind one which didn't take cash. At least 15 other people boarded, not sure if anyone came round to sell tickets but certainly no one came to me.

 

[trainophile]

As you were paying cash - no ticket issuing facility was available. You are not required to seek out anyone on board to buy one from (which does not imply it’s ok to hide from them!) - I’m surprised no one came round as they’re usually quite vigilant on the Beach line.
Being Sunday, maybe staff shortage - it seems usually to be a third crew member doing tickets.

I always thought we were told on here that it was up to us to seek out the guard on the train if we'd been unable to buy a ticket before boarding. Interesting to hear that's not the case, and we don't have to sacrifice our seat in order to do so.

Presumably it still applies that if there's a ticket office at your (non-barriered) destination station you are obliged to buy one there. If no open office, would a machine be able to handle such a ticket when you've already travelled?

 

[Starmill]

To which the answer may be, "Life's a bit tricky at the moment, and I daren't use my cards". Or, "My controlling partner will beat me up if he thinks I've used my cards 'wrongly' (I keep them for life and death matters, which buying a rail ticket isn't)".

Are they going to rip the cards out of your wallet and try them?

I have come across some stupid rules, but this one is right up there.

It's absolute nonsense yes. But luckily 99% of staff are totally sensible. If a customer is offering cash, they will just charge for the ticket in cash and move on with their job.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2025 ==

I always thought we were told on here that it was up to us to seek out the guard on the train if we'd been unable to buy a ticket before boarding. Interesting to hear that's not the case, and we don't have to sacrifice our seat in order to do so.

Presumably it still applies that if there's a ticket office at your (non-barriered) destination station you are obliged to buy one there. If no open office, would a machine be able to handle such a ticket when you've already travelled?

You aren't obligated to find the guard yourself if there's been no opportunity at all to pay. Given the number of trains which do not have them it would be totally impractical.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Imagined conversation on train:

Passenger - The TVM only takes cards and I only have this £20 note.
Guard - I see a card in your wallet sir, you are therefore getting a PF as cash was not your only possible method of payment.
Passenger- That is a company credit card and this is a personal journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always thought we were told on here that it was up to us to seek out the guard on the train if we'd been unable to buy a ticket before boarding. Interesting to hear that's not the case, and we don't have to sacrifice our seat in order to do so.

You don't have to actively go looking for staff (they generally prefer you not to, as they're probably busy doing something else), but you do have to attract their attention and ask to buy a ticket when they come down the train for that purpose, you can't just bury your head in your book or phone and hope they don't notice.

Presumably it still applies that if there's a ticket office at your (non-barriered) destination station you are obliged to buy one there. If no open office, would a machine be able to handle such a ticket when you've already travelled?

Yes, you need to buy one at the first point you pass an opportunity to do so, including if that's at the destination. They are quite good at, for example, picking people up for failing to do that at Manchester Victoria as there are or were ways out that don't go via the gateline and booking office.

There are stations where a TVM is provided inside the gateline for the purposes of buying or collecting tickets when you haven't been able to do so. Certainly there's one on the bridge at Milton Keynes Central, presumably aimed at those who have come from the Marston Vale where ticket selling is rather sporadic but not had time to go to the booking office/TVM at Bletchley, and similarly there's at least one inside the gateline at Watford Junction for those who arrived from St Albans without having had an opportunity to pay.

You can only validly just walk off if at no point before, during or after your journey (prior to leaving railway property) there has been an opportunity to pay for your journey. Such journeys exist, but with wider rollout of TVMs are increasingly rare, unless you are needing to pay cash in which case they're quite common (e.g. most intermediate Marston Vale journeys).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2025 ==

Imagined conversation on train:

Passenger - The TVM only takes cards and I only have this £20 note.
Guard - I see a card in your wallet sir, you are therefore getting a PF as cash was not your only possible method of payment.
Passenger- That is a company credit card and this is a personal journey.

I suspect the number of people who:

(a) have a company credit card;
and (b) do not have a personal payment card of any kind

...is somewhere around 0.

However in practice I suspect this new rule will only be enforced against people who produce a card on board to pay. As I mentioned upthread, most of these NRCoT changes aside from the ones about refunds are just about legitimising what TOCs are already doing but technically probably shouldn't be.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I suspect the number of people who:

(a) have a company credit card;
and (b) do not have a personal payment card of any kind

...is somewhere around 0.

I agree, but the guard couldn't prove it wasn't a company credit card. My point is that there is a ready made excuse.

 

[sheff1]

Consider the situation where I prefer to pay by card, but the ticket I want is not available, which can happen for many reasons. Picking two which we have had recently, for a last train which is running late, or due to fake compulsory reservations, a journey planner TVM decides that no service is available.

This of course is a fairly recently intoduced problem of the railway's own making. The train is running and there is at least one ticket type which would be valid on it but the TVMs fail to offer any ticket. No ability to buy online either as the journey planners used will also claim no tickets are available.

Rather perverse that the railway is with one hand seemingly trying to clamp down on ticketless travel whilst with the other it is preventing people who are actively attempting to pay from doing so.

 

[Buzby]

ScotRail refused point black to offer concession discounted tickets from TVMs - only from an open ticket office. Should the office be shut, you must board ticketless (assuming no gateline) and purchase from onboard staff. The reason? ‘Everyone would buy them”. Or ‘SPT don’t allow it’.

 

[reb0118]

ScotRail refused point black to offer concession discounted tickets from TVMs.......

No they don't, they are not allowed to. Each concession sale results in a liability for the local authority concerned. Those authorities do not want to take the risk, from unsupervised sales outlets, of ineligible passengers getting the discount.

 

[Haywain]

No they don't, they are not allowed to. Each concession sale results in a liability for the local authority concerned. Those authorities do not want to take the risk, from unsupervised sales outlets, of ineligible passengers getting the discount.

Whatever local authorities might want, it is Scotrail who control where they can be sold. And it was Scotrail who objected to LNER selling such tickets on TVMs.

 

[Buzby]

Whatever local authorities might want, it is Scotrail who control where they can be sold.

Precisely. The implication is that those not holding a valid NEC could simply buy a ticket to get through a gateline. Since all NECs are RFID, TVMs could legitimately ask the purchaser to present it to the card reader to ensure (a) one is held, and (b) is valid SPT resident for the discount to be applied. The current system is farcical as staff only ask to see there is card - and often issue based on Out-of-area NEC cards. Since the TVMs can provide an audit trail, but booking office purchases do not - I’m gobsmacked it hasn’t been a priority implementatio.

 

[Haywain]

The current system is farcical as staff only ask to see there is card - and often issue based on Out-of-area NEC cards.

The system of (Scottish) concessionary tickets is stupidly complicated, especially in the Lothians.

 

[Buzby]

especially in the Lothians.

Add in Strathclyde and Fife and you’ve bagged most of the major population centres in the central belt. It’s worth remembering that Edinburgh gives free tram use only to their cardholders, whilst SPT only offer a discount to Glasgow Subway use. Then there’s discounts on ferries, but only if you reside on one of the islands!

 

[sheff1]

ScotRail refused point black to offer concession discounted tickets from TVMs

The TVMs at Sheffield don't offer South Yorkshie concessions. The Northern TVMs located at Doncaster (and, I believe, every other station in the County) do offer them.

 

[reb0118]

Whatever local authorities might want, it is Scotrail who control where they can be sold......

Are you saying that ScotRail can retail them through TVMs if they so choose? Even against the wishes of the local authorities that control them.