Euston to Glasgow needs to go half-hourly

[Zomboid]

The times I've used them they've been pretty busy, though I've only been north of Crewe on one once.

 

[JamesT]

That's a good thing really though, as if all Voyagers were lengthened to six carriages, that'd have been the longest formation you could run with them. They wouldn't have been able to run 12 car services.

Famously, some 15-car Voyager formations ran in the past.

 

[hexagon789]

Famously, some 15-car Voyager formations ran in the past.

On diversionary shuttles, not in regular operation.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Famously, some 15-car Voyager formations ran in the past.

I was just waiting for someone to say that.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some of the overcrowding problems could be solved by a drastic reduction in the amount of 1st Class / "premium" seating. 2 coaches should be more than adequate for those classes.
Also, the TPE Class 397 sets would be more useful if they had 7 coaches, especially on their Edinburgh services.

 

[dk1]

On diversionary shuttles, not in regular operation.

Yes, Euston-Nuneaton via the Chiltern main line. Used them once for fun.

 

[Bald Rick]

Some of the overcrowding problems could be solved by a drastic reduction in the amount of 1st Class / "premium" seating. 2 coaches should be more than adequate for those classes.

And yet first / premium tend to be quite full whenever i use them, especially coming south on Sundays when first is often full from Lancaster, let alone Preston

 

[Brubulus]

Some of the overcrowding problems could be solved by a drastic reduction in the amount of 1st Class / "premium" seating. 2 coaches should be more than adequate for those classes.
Also, the TPE Class 397 sets would be more useful if they had 7 coaches, especially on their Edinburgh services.

Didn't this already take place with the 390 refurbishment. Agree that 397s need at least 7 coaches, and this should be able to be done relatively easily while the 897 line is open.

 

[Sorcerer]

The mixture of nine and eleven-coach 390s along with five rather than seven-coach 397s just seems like another example of industry short-sightedness. Granted in the latter case it's still better than three-coach 185s or four-coach 350s but it almost feels like the industry strives for the bare minimum it can get away with when full extension of the Pendolino fleet along with seven-coach TPE trains sounds like it'd do a lot of good for capacity if some of the experiences on this thread are anything to go by. In my own personal experience the service is quieter north of Preston while being quite busy when starting from London even in the midday period.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Okay, so there's a fair bit of overcrowding on 9 car services. We know more 390 carriages can't be built, but say there were to be a slight reshuffle...

There are 35 11 car sets and 22 9 car sets.

What if there were 13 11 car sets and 43 10 car sets instead, if every 9 car gained a carriage from an 11 car?

I suppose it comes down to whether the capacity gained from extending the 9 cars would outweigh the capacity lost from shortening most of the 11 cars. The shortest Pendolino formations (9 cars) would be eliminated completely, but many current 11 car services would lose a carriage.

 

[JonathanH]

it almost feels like the industry strives for the bare minimum it can get away with

The industry can only provide what is affordable with the support it obtains from the public purse to make up for the shortfall from fares revenue. For every working when a five-car train or nine-car train is insufficient, there are others where it is perfectly adequate. It is clearly a balance to be struck.

 

[JamesT]

Okay, so there's a fair bit of overcrowding on 9 car services. We know more 390 carriages can't be built, but say there were to be a slight reshuffle...

There are 35 11 car sets and 22 9 car sets.

What if there were 13 11 car sets and 43 10 car sets instead, if every 9 car gained a carriage from an 11 car?

I suppose it comes down to whether the capacity gained from extending the 9 cars would outweigh the capacity lost from shortening most of the 11 cars. The shortest Pendolino formations (9 cars) would be eliminated completely, but many current 11 car services would lose a carriage.

Isn’t there another transformer under one of the extra coaches to cope with the additional load? You couldn’t shift just one car across to a 9-car train as it would leave one of them without the extra transformer to go beyond 9.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t there another transformer under one of the extra coaches to cope with the additional load? You couldn’t shift just one car across to a 9-car train as it would leave one of them without the extra transformer to go beyond 9.

Correct, yes. This is the reason why they extended some to 11 in preference to all to 10. I find generally Avanti are quite good at matching the right length to the service.

 

[amahy]

I frequently travel between Scotland and England using the WCML, and in my experience, capacity north of Carlisle is usually sufficient. It’s Carlisle, Lancaster, and Preston that tend to be the busiest stations. The best solution to this would be the following:

A: Lengthen TPE’s 397s to 7 coaches or more, boosting capacity to Manchester (all their services are usually full).

B: Make Avanti’s Scotland via Birmingham services 11 car 390s (in my experience, these services are far more crowded than the fast services via the Trent Valley, yet seem to be mostly 9 car 390s, which are insufficient).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I frequently travel between Scotland and England using the WCML, and in my experience, capacity north of Carlisle is usually sufficient. It’s Carlisle, Lancaster, and Preston that tend to be the busiest stations. The best solution to this would be the following:

A: Lengthen TPE’s 397s to 7 coaches or more, boosting capacity to Manchester (all their services are usually full).

B: Make Avanti’s Scotland via Birmingham services 11 car 390s (in my experience, these services are far more crowded than the fast services via the Trent Valley, yet seem to be mostly 9 car 390s, which are insufficient).

Or C: fiddle with the Advance fares to balance the capacity better. Many people on the "via Birmingham" trains are on them because they are cheaper.

 

[BrianW]

When are HS2 services Old Oak- Birmingham expected to start?
Will that free up paths into/ out of Euston? What will make the best use of these?
How long?

 

[NorthWalian]

When are HS2 services Old Oak- Birmingham expected to start?
Will that free up paths into/ out of Euston? What will make the best use of these?
How long?

Those HS2 services won’t be for a while yet and even if they do come soon, they’ll be highly priced and will target the fast services rather than taking people off the crowded slow Avantis or the LNR/Chiltern stoppers.

 

[amahy]

Or C: fiddle with the Advance fares to balance the capacity better. Many people on the "via Birmingham" trains are on them because they are cheaper.

That would improve things. It's ridiculous that Scotland - London via Birmingham fares are cheaper, as it is one of the only services going to Scotland, serving major populations such as Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Coventry, as well as the major interchange at Crewe. Therefore, travel between London and Scotland on this service should be discouraged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would improve things. It's ridiculous that Scotland - London via Birmingham fares are cheaper, as it is one of the only services going to Scotland, serving major populations such as Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Coventry, as well as the major interchange at Crewe. Therefore, travel between London and Scotland on this service should be discouraged.

This isn't so because there is spare capacity to take extra passengers - it's probably just the case that it's taking too many extra passengers and so the quotas should be adjusted. It's not dissimilar to LNER pricing people onto the slower Edinburgh services.

 

[43096]

Okay, so there's a fair bit of overcrowding on 9 car services. We know more 390 carriages can't be built, but say there were to be a slight reshuffle...

There are 35 11 car sets and 22 9 car sets.

What if there were 13 11 car sets and 43 10 car sets instead, if every 9 car gained a carriage from an 11 car?

I suppose it comes down to whether the capacity gained from extending the 9 cars would outweigh the capacity lost from shortening most of the 11 cars. The shortest Pendolino formations (9 cars) would be eliminated completely, but many current 11 car services would lose a carriage.

It’s not that simple. The two extras added to the 9-cars, one was a motor car. Would a 9-car lengthened to 10 with a trailer be acceptable from a performance perspective?

 

[NorthWalian]

That would improve things. It's ridiculous that Scotland - London via Birmingham fares are cheaper, as it is one of the only services going to Scotland, serving major populations such as Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Coventry, as well as the major interchange at Crewe. Therefore, travel between London and Scotland on this service should be discouraged.

Avanti have always had a thing for selling direct routes at vastly exaggerated prices - just take a look at any of the morning prices into London

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

That would improve things. It's ridiculous that Scotland - London via Birmingham fares are cheaper, as it is one of the only services going to Scotland, serving major populations such as Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Coventry, as well as the major interchange at Crewe. Therefore, travel between London and Scotland on this service should be discouraged.

Avanti’s pricing also prices those four cities onto the stoppers so everyone ends up getting to their destination an hour later than they should have.

 

[MontyP]

I'm a regular (2-3 times per month) on this route, going the full distance London-Glasgow and back. Usually travelling north on a Monday or Tuesday afternoon/evening, and back on Thursday afternoon. In my experience they are very busy between London and Preston northbound, but then can be very quiet as they get further north. A bit different coming south - busier on the northern stretch, usually not that many remaining on the train arriving into Euston at 2120 or 2225!

Such is my experience that I'd been meaning to create a Speculative thread for a while about potentially diverting 3 or 4 of the services to Edinburgh where there might be greater demand!

I'd also like to see more Crewe stops for connections but no easy way to do this without slowing services down.

 

[amahy]

Avanti’s pricing also prices those four cities onto the stoppers so everyone ends up getting to their destination an hour later than they should have.

Sorry if this wasn't clear - I meant that the Avanti London to Scotland via Birmingham service is the only train for those 4 cities to go to Scotland (other than Cross Country), not London.

 

[NorthWalian]

Sorry if this wasn't clear - I meant that the Avanti London to Scotland via Birmingham service is the only train for those 4 cities to go to Scotland (other than Cross Country), not London.

Same probably applies versus some sort of strange Cross Country or TPE route then.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That would improve things. It's ridiculous that Scotland - London via Birmingham fares are cheaper, as it is one of the only services going to Scotland, serving major populations such as Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Coventry, as well as the major interchange at Crewe. Therefore, travel between London and Scotland on this service should be discouraged.

The walk-on fares are the same via Trent Valley or Birmingham (or Manchester).
It's just the Advance fares which might (or might not) be cheaper via Birmingham, but it does offer extra capacity.
Remember the Birmingham trains were a combination of the old Birmingham-Scotland and the Euston-Wolverhampton, serving two distinct markets.
Note also that demand to Edinburgh is greater than to Glasgow, but the franchise system prevented/prevents ICWC running direct London to Edinburgh.

TPE have new rolling stock procurement in progress but I'm not sure if 397 extensions is contemplated (there will be new TP stock after electrification).
They wasted their energies on the daft Mk5 fleet last time.
The LNER CAF order might generate some more options for TPE (or anybody else).

Cutting Chester/North Wales services back to Crewe seems a non-starter to me.
Apart from the politics, it's got a decent business case for the limited frequency offered (hourly to Chester with 5tpd on to Holyhead).
It also is a key part of the service at Crewe and Stafford, and will remain on the WCML post-HS2.

 

[NorthWalian]

The walk-on fares are the same via Trent Valley or Birmingham (or Manchester).
It's just the Advance fares which might (or might not) be cheaper via Birmingham, but it does offer extra capacity.
Remember the Birmingham trains were a combination of the old Birmingham-Scotland and the Euston-Wolverhampton, serving two distinct markets.
Note also that demand to Edinburgh is greater than to Glasgow, but the franchise system prevented/prevents ICWC running direct London to Edinburgh.

TPE have new rolling stock procurement in progress but I'm not sure if 397 extensions is contemplated (there will be new TP stock after electrification).
They wasted their energies on the daft Mk5 fleet last time.
The LNER CAF order might generate some more options for TPE (or anybody else).

Cutting Chester/North Wales services back to Crewe seems a non-starter to me.
Apart from the politics, it's got a decent business case for the limited frequency offered (hourly to Chester with 5tpd on to Holyhead).
It also is a key part of the service at Crewe and Stafford, and will remain on the WCML post-HS2.

I could also not imagine Holyhead going without a direct service to London.

It turns a 4 hour into a 5.5 via Birmingham or a Chester - Crewe slog

 

[mmh]

Cutting Chester/North Wales services back to Crewe seems a non-starter to me.
Apart from the politics, it's got a decent business case for the limited frequency offered (hourly to Chester with 5tpd on to Holyhead).

Ditching Holyhead comes up fairly often on here, I suspect most proposing it haven't experienced the much passenger traffic it can attract and think it's a cinderella line extension that only exists for historical reasons. They couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Nottingham59]

Many people on the "via Birmingham" trains are on them because they are cheaper.

That's the whole point of the via Birmingham service. It allows Avanti to segment the London-Glasgow market and fill those trains with fifty quid advance fares sold to travellers who would never pay full price and would go by coach instead, or not travel at all.

And by making the cheap route unattractive to business travellers, it doesn't compromise their abilty to extract the most revenues from the faster direct trains. Trains that are run with more empty seats to guarantee that walk-up customers paying maximum fares will get a seat.

 

[Zomboid]

Ditching Holyhead comes up fairly often on here, I suspect most proposing it haven't experienced the much passenger traffic it can attract and think it's a cinderella line extension that only exists for historical reasons. They couldn't be further from the truth.

Does Holyhead itself need the service? I had the impression that Bangor was the major destination. Though cutting it back to Bangor would probably generate a load of bad publicity and no useful operational benefits.

 

[Hadders]

Originally the Pendolinos were 8-car length and the first 34 units delivered were this length.
The the decision was made to extend them to 9-car with the 35th to 53rd units delivered as 9-car before the original 34 units were then lengthened.
Subsequently, 31 units were extended to 11-car. 4 additional 11-car units were delivered (one of which was to replace the unit written off at Grayrigg)

So there are currently 56 units, 35 of them 11-car with 21 9-car.

I seem to remember that the addition of the 9th car was simple because it was unpowered but you then had to go from 9 to 11, the simple addition of a 10th cae on its own wasn't possible.