Huntingdon incident (01/11/2025) - hypothetical questions regarding alternative possible actions

[John Luxton]

Moderator note: split from

Major Incident at Huntingdon (01/11/2025)

Shows that Realtime Trains etc. are still niche websites not widely known to the non-enthusiast public. Also presumably broadcasters are not willing to trust "non official" websites.

www.railforums.co.uk

So in an instant like this (perhaps some drivers can explain?) emergency button pressed > pax report knifemen on train > driver seeks to stop train at next suitable place where help can be given > just by chance 1Y90 was unusually on the UM (southbound platform side at Huntingdon) and 9J61 had moved off, allowing 1Y90 to make a platform side call at Huntingdon rather than the usual blast through on the UF?

This seems quite lucky in my view. I’ve travelled on this route a lot and it’s unusual for ‘straight through to London’ expresses to be pathed on the ‘slow lines’.

Had this serendipitous incident not occurred where would you have stopped the train if you were the driver?

This is an appalling incident - but I am wondering if keeping passengers trapped in a train with a potential maurauding terrorist is a good idea?

If this had happened back in the days of the old communication cords and manual doors - the cord would have been pulled train would have halted and passengers could have self evacuated.

Of course, the villain(s) would have had an opportunity to flee as well but those on board could disperse over an area and much less likely become a target.

Yes there is the potential hazard of them jumping out onto live tracks but presumably that hazard would have only existed for a minute or two before the signallers could be informed.

 

[800001]

This is an appalling incident - but I am wondering if keeping passengers trapped in a train with a potential maurauding terrorist is a good idea?

If this had happened back in the days of the old communication cords and manual doors - the cord would have been pulled train would have halted and passengers could have self evacuated. Of course the villain(s) would have had an opportunity to flee as well but those on board could disipate over an area and much less likely become a target.

Yes there is the potential hazard of them jumping out onto live tracks but presumably that hazard would have only existed for a minute or two before the signallers could be informed.

And within that one or two minutes of a train stopping and people self evacuating then a high speed train passing in the adjacent line could have ploughed into several hundred people.

If the signaller didn't have time to get train into the next available station, it would be highly likely it would be brought into the next available station could access, with all emergency services directed to that station.

If there was a train in platform the signaller could also make a call to that train to depart early creating access for the incident train.

 

[35B]

This is an appalling incident - but I am wondering if keeping passengers trapped in a train with a potential maurauding terrorist is a good idea?

If this had happened back in the days of the old communication cords and manual doors - the cord would have been pulled train would have halted and passengers could have self evacuated. Of course the villain(s) would have had an opportunity to flee as well but those on board could disipate over an area and much less likely become a target.

Yes there is the potential hazard of them jumping out onto live tracks but presumably that hazard would have only existed for a minute or two before the signallers could be informed.

We saw what happened with self evacuation 20-odd years ago when an HST caught fire at Maidenhead. In a violent incident like this, that would divert police resources and make recovery harder. And if the train had stopped and those aboard were truly desperate to escape, there are overrides.

I hate to say it, because any victim is 1 too many, but it is also noticeable that there were only 10 people hurt (based on reports this morning). Purely based on odds, that suggests that the risks to those aboard were not that high, and that the right decision was taken to stop the train at a platform. Especially one walking distance from the police HQ.

 

[paulmch]

This is an appalling incident - but I am wondering if keeping passengers trapped in a train with a potential maurauding terrorist is a good idea?

If this had happened back in the days of the old communication cords and manual doors - the cord would have been pulled train would have halted and passengers could have self evacuated. Of course the villain(s) would have had an opportunity to flee as well but those on board could disipate over an area and much less likely become a target.

Yes there is the potential hazard of them jumping out onto live tracks but presumably that hazard would have only existed for a minute or two before the signallers could be informed.

Other reasons have already been discussed, but if the train did stop in the middle of nowhere it would also make it much more difficult for the ambulance service to reach the injured, and the nature of the injuries seen mean that quick attention is absolutely crucial.

 

[parkender102]

A Hypothetical Question comes out of all this:

If it was a terrorist Incident, I'm pretty sure Special Forces train for incidents like this - i.e. rescuing Hostages or potential victims and neutralising Attackers.

If the train stopped or was forced to stop by attackers, I'm pretty sure it would be stormed by Special Forces wherever it was as SF would be helicoptered rapidly to the scene.

This happened during the London Bridge / Borough Market Attacks in 2017.

A Special Forces Helicopter landed on London Bridge and Operatives were deployed.

Unfortunately the intelligence directed them away from the attackers to Southwark Cathedral if my memory serves me correctly.

The Police managed to neutralise the threat before the Special Forces got involved.

I think the Attackers were neutralised within 8 minutes of the attack starting

 

[Royston Vasey]

Other reasons have already been discussed, but if the train did stop in the middle of nowhere it would also make it much more difficult for the ambulance service to reach the injured, and the nature of the injuries seen mean that quick attention is absolutely crucial.

And may well have meant suspects at large in the countryside in the pitch darkness and we could still have been hearing of a manhunt this morning.

 

[Driver068]

A Hypothetical Question comes out of all this. If it was a Terrorist Incident I'm pretty sure Special Forces train for incidents like this - i.e. rescuing Hostages or potential victims and neutralising Attackers. If the train stopped or was forced to stop by attackers I'm pretty sure it would be stormed by Special Forces wherever it was as SF would be helicoptered rapidly to the scene. This happened during the London Bridge / Borough Market Attacks in 2017. A Special Forces Helicopter landed on London Bridge and Operatives were deployed. Unfortunately the intelligence directed them away from the attackers to Southwark Cathedral if my memory serves me correctly. The Police managed to neutralise the threat before the Special Forces got involved. I think the Attackers were neutralised within 8 minutes of the attack starting

For SF to be involved it would have to meet a high threshold. Bear in mind SF work closely with the CT Police and more than likely would have been at the scene in some capacity. Not ready to Helo in but definitely advisers or commanders as such.

Ok. I'm not familiar with the routes / lines on ECML. Where would they re-route into Huntingdon Platforms - closer to the station?

On the approach to Huntingdon there’s a set of points to put you into the platform

 

[sharpener]

If the train stopped or was forced to stop by attackers I'm pretty sure it would be stormed by Special Forces wherever it was as SF would be helicoptered rapidly to the scene.

Not sure that would have resulted in a better outcome, it's not like an embassy in central London. You would need several helicopters of SF to "storm" a train ?100 m long or more and landing in pitch darkness in the middle of nowhere next to overhead 25kV not easy. What do you then do, blow the doors open? Substantial loss of innocent lives very probable IMO.

 

[sh24]

In response to parkender102, post 5 at 09:52

Flying time from Hereford to Huntingdon is a lot longer than 10-15 mins...

 

[parkender102]

Flying time from Hereford to Huntingdon is a lot longer than 10-15 mins...

The SF Helicopter that landed at London Bridge during the London Bridge / Borough Market Attacks arrived within minutes - I assume may have come from RAF Northolt? SAS are based at Hereford but I would assume they have some sort of Rapid Response Units in other places in the UK.

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm quite surprised that anyone here has seriously suggested that the train should have stopped anywhere but at a station - the benefits in terms of detraining/rescue and emergency services' access are not remotely comparable to the middle of a field on a high-speed line in the dark!

 

[John Luxton]

I'm quite surprised that anyone here has seriously suggested that the train should have stopped anywhere but at a station - the benefits in terms of detraining/rescue and emergency services' access are not remotely comparable to the middle of a field on a high-speed line in the dark!

My comment was just musing on what might have happened in the old days of communication cords. Violent incident, cord pulled, train stops people disipate.

Passengers then could get out of the way. I acknowledge different hazards then present themselves - but in such situations many people' reaction is self preservation and a desire to get as far away from the problem as possible.

 

[bramling]

I'm quite surprised that anyone here has seriously suggested that the train should have stopped anywhere but at a station - the benefits in terms of detraining/rescue and emergency services' access are not remotely comparable to the middle of a field on a high-speed line in the dark!

The one benefit of stopping immediately is it releases people from the immediate situation. There’s definitely an argument to say that this might be preferable to being stuck in a confined space. Though of course it introduces additional risks like moving trains, live rails (in some areas), etc. Really in this situation there is no good outcome.

 

[Hadders]

The one benefit of stopping immediately is it releases people from the immediate situation. There’s definitely an argument to say that this might be preferable to being stuck in a confined space. Though of course it introduces additional risks like moving trains, live rails (in some areas), etc. Really in this situation there is no good outcome.

Getting off a train stopped in the middle of nowhere isn't exactly level access. It's something like a 2m drop, on a dark evening onto live running tracks.

There's a high risk of further serious injury as well as the difficulties of access for emergency services.

 

[Unixman]

The one benefit of stopping immediately is it releases people from the immediate situation. There’s definitely an argument to say that this might be preferable to being stuck in a confined space. Though of course it introduces additional risks like moving trains, live rails (in some areas), etc. Really in this situation there is no good outcome.

And the potential for further serious injury as people attempt to get down from the train to the track level, in the dark, with a potential crush of people behind. The consequences for the able bodied, let alone disabled or elderly, just don't bear thinking about.

 

[bramling]

Getting off a train stopped in the middle of nowhere isn't exactly level access. It's something like a 2m drop, on a dark evening onto live running tracks.

There's a high risk of further serious injury as well as the difficulties of access for emergency services.

Risk of injury getting off the train versus risk of injury getting stabbed. There’s certainly a case to say the former is the lesser of two evils, as at least it’s a risk that’s - to some extent - within control.

Agree with the point about access for emergency services though. There’s no good answer for this scenario.

 

[bramling]

And the potential for further serious injury as people attempt to get down from the train to the track level, in the dark, with a potential crush of people behind. The consequences for the able bodied, let alone disabled or elderly, just don't bear thinking about.

Do you *really* prefer the alternative of being trapped in a confined space with someone who wants to kill you? Put bluntly, that is the situation.

Looking at this specific incident, it seems bringing the train to a platform was a good call. But there are going to be times when it isn’t the best response.

 

[Bald Rick]

Risk of injury getting off the train versus risk of injury getting stabbed. There’s certainly a case to say the former is the lesser of two evils, as at least it’s a risk that’s - to some extent - within control.

An evacuation of a train on open lines in the middle of the fens in an emergency is the very defintion of an uncontolled evacuation.

 

[bramling]

An evacuation of a train on open lines in the middle of the fens in an emergency is the very defintion of an uncontolled evacuation.

I’m not saying it’s a good outcome by any means, however personally I think it’s prefer to take my chances with that. Fully understand all the issues it will cause, unfortunately this is the reality of being in “least worst” territory.

 

[jfowkes]

Out of curiosity, would this incident be referred to the RAIB?

It's obviously not an accident, but I wonder if they would investigate to determine if there are any lessons for the railway in terms of incident response, staff training, that sort of thing. (It sounds like the staff did a superb job, I'm not saying there is actually anything to investigate there.)

I'm guessing the answer is no, just curious.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of if passengers should have been evacuated outside of a station, remember that would have so included the attackers too.

What is better from a police point of view? The attackers being held in a confined space or them being let out alongside the other passengers, allowing them to either carry on their attack on people who are trying to evacuated and then escape before the police can get there.

 

[dosxuk]

I’m not saying it’s a good outcome by any means, however personally I think it’s prefer to take my chances with that. Fully understand all the issues it will cause, unfortunately this is the reality of being in "least worst” territory.

Would you be saying this if that had happened, but 50 people had subsequently been hit by a train passing in the opposite direction?

Even with an knife weilding attacker on board, it's still safer inside the train than on the tracks in the middle of nowhere, playing the lottery of if another train will come or not.

 

[brad465]

The one benefit of stopping immediately is it releases people from the immediate situation. There’s definitely an argument to say that this might be preferable to being stuck in a confined space. Though of course it introduces additional risks like moving trains, live rails (in some areas), etc. Really in this situation there is no good outcome.

If something happens between Lockerbie and Carstairs that would certainly be worrying (I've not said Kirknewton because if an incident did occur on this stretch northbound, the train would be diverted to Carstairs if said service hadn't yet entered the Midcalder line).

The 2015 Thalys attack was in a tricky location, but fortunately in this case some experienced passengers and a faulty weapon significantly reduced the impacts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even with an knife weilding attacker on board, it's still safer inside the train than on the tracks in the middle of nowhere, playing the lottery of if another train will come or not.

I'm sorry, that is just not true. Anyone on a train with a knife wielding attacker on board is in severe mortal danger. Trackside is also dangerous but less dangerous than that provided a bit of sense is used.

However a station was by far the best option.

 

[Flange Squeal]

What is better from a police point of view? The attackers being held in a confined space or them being let out alongside the other passengers, allowing them to either carry on their attack on people who are trying to evacuated and then escape before the police can get there.

And from an injured person point of view, a station platform where police and ambulances can park directly outside and then access patients quickly, getting them off the train and into ambulances to hospital as smoothly as possible.

Versus the signaller having to try and ascertain with the driver an exact location they’ve stopped in the dark, then identify the nearest access point, try and then communicate that random location to the emergency services who then have to try and find it and park all these emergency vehicles without hindering eachother’s access to the scene. Then wait for authority to enter the running lines, walk with all their equipment however far from the nearest access point to the train, gaining access via ladder and trying to tend to people and get injured off to ground level down a ladder, and then get the patients back along the track to the remote access point and off to hospital.

I know which I’d prefer. It’s called Huntingdon station.

 

[nolypops83]

This is an appalling incident - but I am wondering if keeping passengers trapped in a train with a potential maurauding terrorist is a good idea?

If this had happened back in the days of the old communication cords and manual doors - the cord would have been pulled train would have halted and passengers could have self evacuated. Of course the villain(s) would have had an opportunity to flee as well but those on board could disipate over an area and much less likely become a target.

Yes there is the potential hazard of them jumping out onto live tracks but presumably that hazard would have only existed for a minute or two before the signallers could be informed.

Absolutely NOT! Getting emergency services to a train that has stopped in the middle of nowhere, in the dark, would significantly delay things. Having them meet the train at a station is far quicker.

 

[zwk500]

I'm sorry, that is just not true. Anyone on a train with a knife wielding attacker on board is in severe mortal danger.

Although considering the length of the train and the narrow aisle, not everybody will be in danger at the same time.

Trackside is also dangerous but less dangerous than that provided a bit of sense is used.

The risk of injury from a 1m drop to the ballast, in the dark, unfamilairity with the nearest means of escape, together with the attacker able to move more freely is arguably more dangerous to the individuals than containing it to the train.

However a station was by far the best option.

Agreed.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I'm sorry, that is just not true. Anyone on a train with a knife wielding attacker on board is in severe mortal danger. Trackside is also dangerous but less dangerous than that provided a bit of sense is used.

However a station was by far the best option.

Unfortunately in this type of scenario sense goes astray, you would have people in a complete panic who would flee in any direction they could, which will include across running lines.

 

[KevinBrum12]

I don't think it would be the purview of the Rail Accidents Investigations Branch, but their opposite numbers at the Rail Safety and Standards Board.

Wherever possible the railway wants to avoid uncontrolled evacuations. Even in a built up area near main roads you have the risks of being hit by a high speed train, the third rail, points changing and trapping your leg, wet slippy rails and steep drops. I guess the days of wizend railway hands going into primary schools with a video of "Robbie" have gone so the understanding of the dangers is not there.

 

[43096]

I'm sorry, that is just not true. Anyone on a train with a knife wielding attacker on board is in severe mortal danger. Trackside is also dangerous but less dangerous than that provided a bit of sense is used.

But trackside is even more dangerous with a knife wielding attacker on the loose. Or do you expect the punters all to evacuate leaving the attacker sat on their own on the train...