Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[Davester50]

Quick googling suggests per km cost in Scotland is falling, single track km cost reduced from £2.7m to £2m since 2020 in a period plagued by very high inflation affecting the construction industry.

In contrast the single track km figure in England appear to have increased by at least as much as it has been reduced in Scotland.

By doing the easy cheaper things and leaving out the expensive complicated things makes things cheaper? Whodathunk!

 

[HighlandStorm]

By doing the easy cheaper things and leaving out the expensive complicated things makes things cheaper? Whodathunk!

That’s a misrepresentation - only now are the crews moving onto projects which are discontinuous electrification. The projects delivered to date have been full electrifications.

As to carrying around unnecessary batteries, I’d actually like to see even the intended full EMU units have some traction battery capacity for self rescue and having sufficient capacity to keep onboard hotel services fully running for a decent length of time when brown stuff hits the fan!

 

[Davester50]

That’s a misrepresentation - only now are the crews moving onto projects which are discontinuous electrification. The projects delivered to date have been full electrifications.

It's add-ons to Barrhead and EK.

As to carrying around unnecessary batteries, I’d actually like to see even the intended full EMU units have some traction battery capacity for self rescue and having decent capacity to keep onboard hotel services running for a decent length of time when brown stuff hits the fan!

That's a fair point, and a different matter.

Anyway, at this, I'm bowing out. I don't see the point in arguing for total route electrification further.

 

[InOban]

Not just that. Instead of multiple visits - erect mast, come back, possibly move than once, to attach various bits of steel etc, everything is attached in the yard before the mast is delivered.

Of course we have a romantic attachment to full wiring but, to be blunt, money for capital investment is short and only a few years ago viable BEMUs didn't exist. If we were planning Barrhead and EK now, they wouldn't be wired although the other track and station improvements would remain.

 

[John R]

Ask the people who took on the 40+ Year old fleet to do front line services for another 10 years?

A glib statement. Know of any fleet of dmus that have lasted 50 years in frontline service?

There’s a reason why TfW is getting rid of its 2nd generation fleet, and procurement is under way to replace the same at Northern and GWR.

 

[Davester50]

A glib statement. Know of any fleet of dmus that have lasted 50 years in frontline service?

There’s a reason why TfW is getting rid of its 2nd generation fleet, and procurement is under way to replace the same at Northern and GWR.

And yet very, very on point.
Who replaces 17 years old trains with 40 year old ones? Who thought they could run with 1 power car running? The same body that wants incomplete electrification.

Anyway, at this, I'm bowing out. I don't see the point in arguing for total route electrification further.

 

[Russel]

Given there won’t be enough emus to run even all electric services on rhe East Kilbride line, what do you propose running on the Maryhill line?

How would I know? I'm not part of the ScotRail unit planning department...

 

[HighlandStorm]

And yet very, very on point.
Who replaces 17 years old trains with 40 year old ones? Who thought they could run with 1 power car running? The same body that wants incomplete electrification.

The HSTs were brought in be Abellio, so that assertion is wrong.

Notwithstanding that point, the HSTs meant a significant increase in capacity and more appropriate stock on intercity services. With displaced 158s and 170s providing more additional local services.

The HSTs represent a very substantial improvement in the ScotRail offering for passengers on the Highland Mainline!

 

[The exile]

So we're buying more expensive units at the off, carrying around more weight for no good reason, using more energy lugging about these batteries, adding to increased track wear?
These aren't good things, it's short-termism that's indicative of the state of the country.

Do the job properly first time.

There is going to be a need for trains that can operate away from the wires for decades to come- even in Scotland, which is considerably further down the road to full electrification than any of the other constituent countries of the UK. The more we can do to facilitate them being not pure diesels the better. The click has ticked too long already to rely on existing stock to plug the gap until full electrification can be completed, so bi modes are inevitable whatever we do. Electrifying the quick and easy bits to mean we get the biggest bang for the limited bucks available is the least worst option, given the fact that we can’t start “doing the job properly” 20 years or so ago.

 

[Carntyne]

The HSTs were brought in be Abellio, so that assertion is wrong.

Notwithstanding that point, the HSTs meant a significant increase in capacity and more appropriate stock on intercity services. With displaced 158s and 170s providing more additional local services.

The HSTs represent a very substantial improvement in the ScotRail offering for passengers on the Highland Mainline!

When they run.
The impact they must have had by being so unreliable must be massive, and putting people off travelling.

Booking a seat on a "comfortable" HST, then being crammed onto a 2-car 158 doesn't do much for the railway's reputation.

 

[John R]

How would I know? I'm not part of the ScotRail unit planning department...

Well if you suggest something, it's not unreasonable for others to challenge why it might not be particularly practical. You can't take part in a debate, and then as soon as your suggestion is challenged say that you're not an expert.

 

[hwl]

The Anniesland shuttle would have been the first Scotrail trial with BEMUs if they were serious. A converted 321 of which there have been plenty, fitted with batteries. The unit would climb Cowlairs on AC, then drop the pan and run on batteries to Anniesland, presumably into the unwired bay. If necessary a charging rail above the bay strapped over from the 25Kv in the main platforms would allow the BEMU to charge whilst at the platform, then drop the pan and run on batteries back to Cowlairs where the pan would be raised for the batteries to be charged on the descent back into Queen st, although the regen should take care of most of it.

I think it was an opportunity missed for Scotrail to gain practical battery operation experience, prior to other routes.

The Anniesland shuttle going over to BEMU doesn't really help the rolling stock replacement situation in a meaningful way though. Another side of the rolling stock strategy is keeping the number of rolling stock types per depot as low as sensibly possible. As Waverly 47 (who is almost always right) points out the BEMU will effectively be mainly Haymarket based

I think the 230 and 769 debacles, along with the quiet ending of the 379 trial, have given the UK more than enough evidence for why trying to retrofit new traction types onto units that weren't designed for them, is a bad idea.

There are many, many reasons why this course of action is not the perfect one. However, from where I'm sitting, with experience of these long term projects and the sheer costs involved, it does seem like it is a course of action that will work. Perfect, as they say, is too often the enemy of good. I'd love wires up from Tweedbank to Tain; alas, I am confident I will not live to see it. In our world, without limitless funds, this does seem a bit of a bodge, I will agree.

The important part is that the logic behind the plan that we have is sound. This is a plan, that, if carried out to it's fullness and with the continued confidence of those with the purse strings, will result in material benefits.

The whole life cost saving from not ordering new diesel (single or mutli-mode) and this only sensible way this can be achieved is partial electrification. Ignoring the money for a bit, there just aren't the people and plant to deliver full before the DMU end of life and then the are the practice constraints of closing all the bridges in one area at the same time doesn't go down well with locals and getting supply point connections.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Notwithstanding that point, the HSTs meant a significant increase in capacity and more appropriate stock on intercity services. With displaced 158s and 170s providing more additional local services.

The HSTs represent a very substantial improvement in the ScotRail offering for passengers on the Highland Mainline!

I agree totally.

 

[Russel]

Well if you suggest something, it's not unreasonable for others to challenge why it might not be particularly practical. You can't take part in a debate, and then as soon as your suggestion is challenged say that you're not an expert.

I asked a question as part of a discussion, nowhere did I suggest I was any kind of expert, you're welcome to correct me on why it isn't a practical option, that's how discussions work, but there is no need to be condescending.

 

[Davester50]

The HSTs were brought in be Abellio, so that assertion is wrong.

No. You're wrong.
Transport Scotland let the contract to Abellio based on Abellio's bid that displaced newer stock with 40 year old life expired equipment.

It's TS's Train Set and it seems as if they play like it is one.

The HSTs represent a very substantial improvement in the ScotRail offering for passengers on the Highland Mainline!

There's more to Scotland than the Highland Main Line.

 

[MadMac]

A glib statement. Know of any fleet of dmus that have lasted 50 years in frontline service?

The last 101s came close to that.

 

[HighlandStorm]

No. You're wrong.
Transport Scotland let the contract to Abellio based on Abellio's bid that displaced newer stock with 40 year old life expired equipment.

It's TS's Train Set and it seems as if they play like it is one.


There's more to Scotland than the Highland Main Line.

Apart from the fact there might be a clue in my username as to why I’d particularly comment on the HML - it was / is very much the most inappropriate use of the 170s on long distance Scottish routes.

However, your HML jibe contracts the first part of your post. Yes there’s more to ScotRail than the Inter7city network (a lot more) and the franchise bids had to be taken as a whole - it wasn’t a pick n mix!

Transport Scotland did all but exclude the 170s from intercity routes in the ITT, First ScotRail chose bid to continue with 170s as intercity trains despite that and lost the franchise.

Abellio promised the moon on a stick and was widely perceived to have delivered a shambles - though had the franchise continued that might have changed as the entire EGIP project and the 385s bedded down and various prolonged upgrade blockades on the Inverness - Aberdeen and Highland Mainline were completed and started delivering service enhancements, plus new and replaced stations.

 

[Morayshire]

The HSTs represent a very substantial improvement in the ScotRail offering for passengers on the Highland Mainline!

They are/were also very much appreciated by myself and others on the Dundee to Aberdeen services as well. Especially once the 5 car sets became more and more frequent.

As for the current electrification approach, yes the bit here and there isn't ideal and it would be preferable to have lines done in a single hit but some electrification is better than no electrification.

I also wonder if key programme dates are also being driven by the ability to actually get the required grid connections done given the sheer amount of grid infrastructure work which is going on/planned elsewhere in Scotland at the moment. After all, no point having lots of lovely EMUs and wires up if you can't get the electric to power them!

 

[Wyrleybart]

The Anniesland shuttle going over to BEMU doesn't really help the rolling stock replacement situation in a meaningful way though. Another side of the rolling stock strategy is keeping the number of rolling stock types per depot as low as sensibly possible. As Waverly 47 (who is almost always right) points out the BEMU will effectively be mainly Haymarket based

I agree "Hwl" it would not save anything in terms of rolling stock, but would be providing Scotrail with boatloads of practical operating experience and data for developing BEMU operations. At present I understand the only contemporary battery experience on the UK network are a handful of 777s on Merseyside and 230001. Anniesland would have been a "Scottish" project. and could have acted as a springboard.

 

[TrainViation]

When it comes to the line closure between the 17th and 25th of January. What role will these Carlisle and Millerhill freight services play?

Never seen anything like it before on RTT.

 

[zwk500]

When it comes to the line closure between the 17th and 25th of January. What role will these Carlisle and Millerhill freight services play?

Never seen anything like it before on RTT.
View attachment 191612

All the trains marked with STP are engineering trains working to or from the possession.

 

[BigB]

When it comes to the line closure between the 17th and 25th of January. What role will these Carlisle and Millerhill freight services play?

Never seen anything like it before on RTT.
View attachment 191612

In Scotland, freights where the head code starts "6K" are almost invariably civil engineers trains delivering/removing materials for track work.
The clue is in their start/end point of Dalmeny Junction, where they enter the possession.

 

[TrainViation]

In Scotland, freights where the head code starts "6K" are almost invariably civil engineers trains delivering/removing materials for track work.
The clue is in their start/end point of Dalmeny Junction, where they enter the possession.

I did think so, thank you.

I’ve sent an email to Network Rail enquiring about the southern project, and if the track lowers will include the Dalmeny area, and whether that means the wires will reach Dalmeny station itself, instead of terminating just short of the A90 road bridge.
Hoping to hear back from them soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2025 ==

I’ve heard back from them, and they confirmed that the electrification will terminate south of Dalmeny in this current phase.

I wonder if that is because of the A90, or the vast amount of sidings south of the station. Sad to hear though.

 

[najaB]

I’ve heard back from them, and they confirmed that the electrification will terminate south of Dalmeny in this current phase.

I wonder if that is because of the A90, or the vast amount of sidings south of the station. Sad to hear though.

Agreed that it's a bit unfortunate, I guess that they plan to tackle the loops at the same time as the Forth Bridge.

 

[TrainViation]

Agreed that it's a bit unfortunate, I guess that they plan to tackle the loops at the same time as the Forth Bridge.

It does make sense though, and would make sense to separate them. As they’re only doing the easier and cheaper bits at the moment. I’m sure before electrifying that section, they’ll want to remodel those sidings, they’re a mess!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2025 ==

Found this on the internet. Seems the bridge at South Gyle will be complete before the end of this year. I wonder if it will be opened earlier than planned…

 

[TrainViation]

The official Scotland's Railway website has been updated! https://scotlandsrailway.com/projects/fife-electrification
It now shows:

December 2025: OLE works between Haymarket and Saughton Junction

The Fife and Borders Electrification project is the next part of the Scottish Government’s rolling programme of electrification. This major investment in Scotland’s Railway will electrify lines to provide quieter, greener and cleaner trains. Reducing carbon emissions will not only improve rail’s green credentials but will make the air cleaner and play a vital part in building a strong, green economy for the future.

Great to see them finally updating the website for the first time since June 2022.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The official Scotland's Railway website has been updated! https://scotlandsrailway.com/projects/fife-electrification
It now shows: "December 2025: OLE works between Haymarket and Saughton Junction"
Great to see them finally updating the website for the first time since June 2022.

Absolutely fantastic news. Thanks for sharing

 

[ld0595]

I flew into Edinburgh earlier this week over the line to Fife as we landed. Pleasantly surprised at the rate of progress. Those masts have shot up!

 

[najaB]

I flew into Edinburgh earlier this week over the line to Fife as we landed. Pleasantly surprised at the rate of progress. Those masts have shot up!

Yes. I think all the masts and portals are up, it's just the wiring to be done.

 

[TrainViation]

Yes. I think all the masts and portals are up, it's just the wiring to be done.

Unfortunately not all of the masts are up. There is one double to have droppers added, two portals to be fully assembled and another to have droppers added, and one double to be put up closer to Lennymuir, all at the airport section. Then there's the two random piles between Saughton Junction and Ladywell Avenue which still need to be put up. Not sure what the case is with them though, here's a screenshot of them with some weird material around them, looks like slabs. Any ideas as to what's going on?