Highland Railway connections to the south

[Garmoran]

I've just been browsing through the database of accident reports maintained by railwaysarchive.co.uk and found the synopsis for the accident at Aviemore in 1887 interesting for its description of the train's formation:

... the 3 p.m. up train from Inverness (consisting of two engines and tenders, two fish-waggons, luggage-van, West Coast composite, Midland bogie composite, East Coast composite, Caledonian Railway third carriage, brake-van, one Highland Railway third-class, one Highland Railway bogie composite, and two Highland Railway third-class carriages, and rear brake-van) was entering the loop at Aviemore station at 4.58 p.m., the whole of the train, with the exception of the leading engine and tender, left the rails.

The train included coaches from no less than 5 operators, three of which presumably made their way to destinations south of the border by 3 different main line routes- ECML, WCML and Midland. I assume division of the train will have occurred at Perth (for the ECML coach) and Carlisle (for the Midland and WCML coaches).
1. Any thoughts on the destination of the Caledonian coach?
2. Will any of the Highland Railway coaches have continued south of Perth?
3. Were there any other lines that regularly carried trains made up of coaches from 5 or more operators?

 

[Gloster]

1 Probably Edinburgh or Glasgow. I would think that Glasgow is more likely as the East Coast route actually passed through Edinburgh, while the West Coast one avoided it. An alternative is a vehicle put on at Carlisle or further north as a strengthener.
2 Probably not, although the possibility of them going to Edinburgh or Glasgow is a possibility.

 

[D6130]

I would hazard a guess that the Caledonian carriage was for Carlisle, the Midland one for Leeds, Nottingham or St Pancras - or possibly all three - and the East Coast Joint Stock one for Edinburgh, Newcastle, York and Kings Cross. Given the departure time from Inverness, I would think that this would have been an overnight train. If I remember correctly sleeping cats hadn't been invented in 1887....but I'm open to correction as always.

 

[Gloster]

I would hazard a guess that the Caledonian carriage was for Carlisle, the Midland one for Leeds, Nottingham or St Pancras - or possibly all three - and the East Coast Joint Stock one for Edinburgh, Newcastle, York and Kings Cross. Given the departure time from Inverness, I would think that this would have been an overnight train. If I remember correctly sleeping cats hadn't been invented in 1887....but I'm open to correction as always.

Oh, but they have been lying around for years, just like sleeping dogs.

The Midland had sleeping cars in 1873. I think that the West Coast Joint Stock, at least, included sleeping cars at least a decade earlier, so it is possible that they had spread to the premier trains to Inverness by 1887.

 

[D6130]

Oh, but they have been lying around for years, just like sleeping dogs.

The Midland had sleeping cars in 1873.

Correction accepted! ☺️

 

[Garmoran]

1 Probably Edinburgh or Glasgow. I would think that Glasgow is more likely as the East Coast route actually passed through Edinburgh, while the West Coast one avoided it. An alternative is a vehicle put on at Carlisle or further north as a strengthener.
2 Probably not, although the possibility of them going to Edinburgh or Glasgow is a possibility.

I've now worked out how to read the full accident report and can confirm that the order of the carriages is correct for their position in the train. So it's likely that the CR coach either accompanied the ECJR coach to Edinburgh or was attached to a Glasgow bound train. It also supports the probability that the HR vehicles terminated at Perth.

 

[Rescars]

That's quite a consist. In modern speak, that's real connectivity!

This incident predates the 1889 Act requiring continuous automatic brakes of course, but would there have been any issues arising here with company preferences for vacuum or Westinghouse systems? IIRC the Caledonian went for Westinghouse, whilst the Midland used vacuum. How were these potential conflicts managed? Any thoughts anyone?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

No Forth Bridge in 1887 so the whole ensemble would probably be split at Stirling with the Highland stock dropped at Perth.

 

[Garmoran]

That's quite a consist. In modern speak, that's real connectivity!

This incident predates the 1889 Act requiring continuous automatic brakes of course, but would there have been any issues arising here with company preferences for vacuum or Westinghouse systems? IIRC the Caledonian went for Westinghouse, whilst the Midland used vacuum. How were these potential conflicts managed? Any thoughts anyone?

The inspector makes a comment about this at the end of the report:

it should be noted that ,
with the engine and all the vehicles in the train belonging to the Highland Railway
Company fitted with the continuous brake which they have adopted, this brake was
not in working order , because of the interposition of carriages belonging to other
companies , a state of things which will constantly occur until it is made obligatory
for all passenger trains to be fitted with a continuous brake in working order .

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No Forth Bridge in 1887 so the whole ensemble would probably be split at Stirling with the Highland stock dropped at Perth.

Very good point which I completely missed!

 

[stuving]

Oh, but they have been lying around for years, just like sleeping dogs.

The Midland had sleeping cars in 1873. I think that the West Coast Joint Stock, at least, included sleeping cars at least a decade earlier, so it is possible that they had spread to the premier trains to Inverness by 1887.

Sleeping cars in Britain were all first class until very late. The earliest mention I can find of third class ones is an experimental introduction in September 1928. Given a mention of hiring a rug, I imagine they were used more like couchettes than beds. LNER's were compartments of four, as later on, at 6s a place against £1 for a first class one.

Abroad, second class sleepers had been operating in Germany and the USA since the middle 1800s, later spreading to Canada, France, etc.

 

[Rescars]

The inspector makes a comment about this at the end of the report:


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Strong sense of frustration here on the part of the Inspector during the period of the BoT's campaign for lock, block and brake.

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No Forth Bridge in 1887 so the whole ensemble would probably be split at Stirling with the Highland stock dropped at Perth.

Probably of little direct relevance, but the second Tay Bridge opened for traffic the previous month, in June 1887.

 

[matchmaker]

Sleeping cars in Britain were all first class until very late. The earliest mention I can find of third class ones is an experimental introduction in September 1928. Given a mention of hiring a rug, I imagine they were used more like couchettes than beds. LNER's were compartments of four, as later on, at 6s a place against £1 for a first class one.

Abroad, second class sleepers had been operating in Germany and the USA since the middle 1800s, later spreading to Canada, France, etc.

The LMS introduced third class sleepers in Autumn 1928, as did the LNER and GWR. The Southern didn't need them... They were convertible to 4 proper berths with interior sprung mattresses, and pillows and blankets were supplied.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The LMS introduced third class sleepers in Autumn 1928, as did the LNER and GWR. The Southern didn't need them... They were convertible to 4 proper berths with interior sprung mattresses, and pillows and blankets were supplied.

The LSWR did have some sleeping cars, according to OS Nock. They were kept on standby for the Plymouth boat trains, which could run at any time of the day or night depending on when a transatlantic liner made landfall. (For some reason they were not used on the night of the 1906 Salisbury disaster)

(EDITED to correct date)

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

The LSWR did have some sleeping cars, according to OS Nock. They were kept on standby for the Plymouth boat trains, which could run at any time of the day or night depending on when a transatlantic liner made landfall. (For some reason they were not used on the night of the 1908 Salisbury disaster)

I believe Hamilton Ellis mentioned these too in The Trains We Loved, but his version (from memory, as I don't have immediate access to my copy of the book at the moment) was that they were only introduced after Salisbury. Apparently they didn't last long in LSWR service and were sold to the GWR, a couple of them then being destroyed in a paint shop fire at Swindon shortly thereafter. I think the book mentioned them having brass bedsteads for berths.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I believe Bulleid, ever the non-conformist, drew up plans for sleeping cars with longitudinal berths but the idea was not taken forward. The SR did run overnight services to Plymouth, Padstow etc. (in one direction at least) so there might have been a market.

The SR did run the 'Night Ferry' of course, but not with their own vehicles.

 

[Gloster]

I believe Bulleid, ever the non-conformist, drew up plans for sleeping cars with longitudinal berths but the idea was not taken forward. The SR did run overnight services to Plymouth, Padstow etc. (in one direction at least) so there might have been a market.

The SR did run the 'Night Ferry' of course, but not with their own vehicles.

There was one Bulleid design sleeping car, although it was officially called an Inspection Saloon as it was for use by senior staff only. It had eleven longitudinal berths plus one for an attendant, plus a small toilet and shower. It had a plywood body, but being a Bulleid design, there was a disadvantage: it warped. It was completed in 1946, but was disposed of in 1955 and probably saw little use.

Source: Bulleid’s S.R. Steam Passenger Stock (Gould, Oakwood, 1980).

I believe Hamilton Ellis mentioned these too in The Trains We Loved, but his version (from memory, as I don't have immediate access to my copy of the book at the moment) was that they were only introduced after Salisbury. Apparently they didn't last long in LSWR service and were sold to the GWR, a couple of them then being destroyed in a paint shop fire at Swindon shortly thereafter. I think the book mentioned them having brass bedsteads for berths.

The LSWR built four 56‘ Sleeping Saloons in 1908 with seven single and two double compartments, a toilet and a (windowless) attendant‘s compartment; the beds were transversal and ‘more or less ordinary domestic brass-mounted bedsteads’. Following the Salisbury accident the LSWR and GWR slowly saw sense over the liner traffic and reduced the competition for the ocean traffic. In 1911 the coaches were sold to the GWR for £700 each, minus bogies, dynamos, accumulators and brake gear. Two were burnt in 1912, but the other two lasted until 1928 and 1931.

Source: LSWR Carriages in the Twentieth Century (Weddell, OPC, 2001).

 

[Dave W]

I believe Bulleid, ever the non-conformist, drew up plans for sleeping cars with longitudinal berths but the idea was not taken forward.

Interesting - I travelled in one of Amtrak's roomettes between Jackson and New Orleans 3 years ago - these were probably in a similar format where the bottom bunk was a 1+1 facing seat arrangement which folded away, the top bunk would swing down to form a private couchette style 2 bed compartment, with these so arranged on either side of a corridor. Easy when your trains can be that wide I'm sure!

 

[Rescars]

There was one Bulleid design sleeping car, although it was officially called an Inspection Saloon as it was for use by senior staff only. It had eleven longitudinal berths plus one for an attendant, plus a small toilet and shower. It had a plywood body, but being a Bulleid design, there was a disadvantage: it warped. It was completed in 1946, but was disposed of in 1955 and probably saw little use.

Source: Bulleid’s S.R. Steam Passenger Stock (Gould, Oakwood, 1980).



The LSWR built four 56‘ Sleeping Saloons in 1908 with seven single and two double compartments, a toilet and a (windowless) attendant‘s compartment; the beds were transversal and ‘more or less ordinary domestic brass-mounted bedsteads’. Following the Salisbury accident the LSWR and GWR slowly saw sense over the liner traffic and reduced the competition for the ocean traffic. In 1911 the coaches were sold to the GWR for £700 each, minus bogies, dynamos, accumulators and brake gear. Two were burnt in 1912, but the other two lasted until 1928 and 1931.

Source: LSWR Carriages in the Twentieth Century (Weddell, OPC, 2001).

Dendy Marshall's History of the Southern Railway suggests that these sleepers were built for the short-lived "Ocean Specials", which were run to a variable timetable in conjunction with the arrival of transatlantic steamers at Plymouth. The stock for these trains was 6" wider than normal. All part of an attempt by the LSWR to retain this passenger traffic despite competition from the GWR.

 

[Tester]

Interesting - I travelled in one of Amtrak's roomettes between Jackson and New Orleans 3 years ago - these were probably in a similar format where the bottom bunk was a 1+1 facing seat arrangement which folded away, the top bunk would swing down to form a private couchette style 2 bed compartment, with these so arranged on either side of a corridor. Easy when your trains can be that wide I'm sure!

A similar arrangement is entirely normal in Thailand, on metre gauge - and they are pretty spacious!

 

[norbitonflyer]

I believe Hamilton Ellis mentioned these too in The Trains We Loved, but his version (from memory, as I don't have immediate access to my copy of the book at the moment) was that they were only introduced after Salisbury. Apparently they didn't last long in LSWR service and were sold to the GWR, a couple of them then being destroyed in a paint shop fire at Swindon shortly thereafter. I think the book mentioned them having brass bedsteads for berths.

This link purports to describe an LSWR sleeping car from 1905 (the year before the Salisbury disaster) . Is it an error?

Former LSWR sleeping car, Aberporth - History Points

This holiday cottage consists of the body of a London & South Western Railway sleeping car, built in 1905 for the “boat train”...

historypoints.org

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Dendy Marshall's History of the Southern Railway suggests that these sleepers were built for the short-lived "Ocean Specials", which were run to a variable timetable in conjunction with the arrival of transatlantic steamers at Plymouth. The stock for these trains was 6" wider than normal. All part of an attempt by the LSWR to retain this passenger traffic despite competition from the GWR.

It has been suggested that it is not a coincidence that the Salisbury crash happened in the small hours of the very last day that the LSWR had any chance of beating the GWR on speed. The competition was essentially over once the Castle Cary to Langport cutoff opened on 2nd July 1906. Along with another cutoff between Pewsey and Westbury opened in 1900, and upgrading the former branch lines that they linked, this completed the GWR's direct route to the West Country - no longer the "Great Way Round" via Bristol.

The "Badminton" line was another cutoff from that era, built in 1903 to allow South Wales trains to avoid Bristol

 

[Gloster]

This link purports to describe an LSWR sleeping car from 1905 (the year before the Salisbury disaster) . Is it an error?

Former LSWR sleeping car, Aberporth - History Points

This holiday cottage consists of the body of a London & South Western Railway sleeping car, built in 1905 for the “boat train”...

historypoints.org

All the details up to December 1931 fit for it being former LSWR 42/GWR 9089, except that Weddell gives the building date as 1908: I would trust his research. It could well be one of the LSWR vehicles, but it would certainly be quite a survivor if it is.

 

[Reiver]

Back to the original post, the presence of a Manchester & Sheffield Joint coach is interesting (mentioned only by the Workshop Manager) and could be associated with either the Midland carriage or the ECJS one, or entirely separate, but if so to where? The journeys of through coaches are almost impossible to trace in Bradshaw, the train was to terminate at Perth, so that's where the transfer of through carriages would have taken place and the end of their journey for most, if not all of the HR coaches. The Caley one would most likely be either Buchanan Street, Glasgow or Princes Street, Edinburgh, probably attached to a train from Aberdeen or one originating at Perth. The Midland carriage would head probably for Carlisle over the Caley (shorter and maybe cheaper than the NB route, although the Midland did have a working arrangement with the NB). The fish trucks could be going almost anywhere populous. The ECJS would head to Edinburgh Waverley but that still required the ferry over the Forth. If they wished to avoid that inconvenience they would have to pay the Caley to work it southwards.

 

[Gloster]

Back to the original post, the presence of a Manchester & Sheffield Joint coach is interesting (mentioned only by the Workshop Manager) and could be associated with either the Midland carriage or the ECJS one, or entirely separate, but if so to where? The journeys of through coaches are almost impossible to trace in Bradshaw, the train was to terminate at Perth, so that's where the transfer of through carriages would have taken place and the end of their journey for most, if not all of the HR coaches. The Caley one would most likely be either Buchanan Street, Glasgow or Princes Street, Edinburgh, probably attached to a train from Aberdeen or one originating at Perth. The Midland carriage would head probably for Carlisle over the Caley (shorter and maybe cheaper than the NB route, although the Midland did have a working arrangement with the NB). The fish trucks could be going almost anywhere populous. The ECJS would head to Edinburgh Waverley but that still required the ferry over the Forth. If they wished to avoid that inconvenience they would have to pay the Caley to work it southwards.

I see in the report that the MS&L coach was no 1, so perhaps it was a saloon being used by a party. In that case it could be anywhere on the company’s lines, even a minor station.

 

[Reiver]

Quite possibly, it was summer and the toffs often headed to their Highland holiday homes then. I hadn't thought of that as an explanation.

 

[Rescars]

It seems strange that Major Marindin records the carriage between the WCJS composite and the ECJS composite as a Midland bogie composite whilst Mr Reid refers to it as a Manchester and Sheffield Joint Stock carriage. If Mr Reid was accurate about the carriage number, then a saloon does seem like a possibility, but a saloon in this era would perhaps have been more likely to be a 6-wheeler. The accident took place on 25th July, which is perhaps a little early for the well-heeled to be heading north in time for the Glorious Twelfth.

 

[stuving]

Dendy Marshall's History of the Southern Railway suggests that these sleepers were built for the short-lived "Ocean Specials", which were run to a variable timetable in conjunction with the arrival of transatlantic steamers at Plymouth. The stock for these trains was 6" wider than normal. All part of an attempt by the LSWR to retain this passenger traffic despite competition from the GWR.

I've just happened across a piece in Railway News; 02 May 1908; p11, about these LSWR vehicles. It credits "The South-Western Gazette", and either that or this looks like the source of what Weddel wrote and Gloster quoted. Most of it is about the luxuriousness of the interiors, but some is a bit more prosaic.

 

[Bevan Price]

It seems strange that Major Marindin records the carriage between the WCJS composite and the ECJS composite as a Midland bogie composite whilst Mr Reid refers to it as a Manchester and Sheffield Joint Stock carriage. If Mr Reid was accurate about the carriage number, then a saloon does seem like a possibility, but a saloon in this era would perhaps have been more likely to be a 6-wheeler. The accident took place on 25th July, which is perhaps a little early for the well-heeled to be heading north in time for the Glorious Twelfth.

To me, "Manchester & Sheffield Joint Stock" suggests GCR/GNR origin, as the GNR had running powers over Woodhead, and there were once some through trains between London Kings Cross and Manchester London Road via Woodhead.

 

[Reiver]

The accident predates the formation of the Great Central, it was still Money Sunk and Lost.