Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[pompeyfan]

My point here was about crew knowledge, driver side particularly. Until there are sufficient Guildford drivers/crews trained on 701 in order that booked (WTT) unit diagrams that both start and finish at Guildford in a manner that the units (in quantity) will balance each night, without the planners having to re write mountains of diagrams (stock and crew) on an STP basis, any change in stock type stabled will have to await sufficient 701 trained crew resilience at GF depot.

That’s not strictly true, as the last two suburban arrivals and first two departures are both Waterloo night jobs, although 5F02/2F02 stock is currently booked a 5 444 which I believe goes onto 1W91 (although that bit of inter working may have changed), but I agree with you that until a significant proportion of Guildford crews are passed for 701s, the company is limited to the number of 701s stabled at Guildford overnight.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

That’s not strictly true, as the last two suburban arrivals and first two departures are both Waterloo night jobs

Thanks for that. That point is a very good example of how things can change from one Timetable period to another. When I first started (mid 70's) we had numerous night turn EMU jobs, think 0130, 0135 etc etc Waterloo rounders, and others (with other depots), but in my later years we only had one WA night turn involving a GF (location) finish (AFAIR?), the 00.02 Down and the 04.20 Up next day, if my decrepid memory is correct - don't count on that, as the details are somewhat vague now!

But my point being that WTT diagrams can and do change with frequent regularity, often as a result from instructions from on high (latest financial thinking?), and so the details that one old fxxx (myself) remembers, may be correct from my experience, but may not match the details that someone else remembers from their time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

That will likely have been assisted by the steady removal of 455's from the likes of Wimbledon depot for scrap, but there is only so far that theme can run due to less 10 car roads available there than 8 car roads. Looking at the 455 diagrams on the SWR web site, it appears there are still 4 x 8 car starting/finishing at Guildford everyday - I suspect that may become the next pinch point in so far as until enough Guildford crews are trained on 701, the switch from 455 to 701 there can not take place. Sure it's all in hand.

Ah yes and the run down of 455s is getting obvious. But as you say 455s fit in sidings that the 10car 701/0s will not fit in.
Nowadays, when I travel on SWR, I find myself wondering if this will be the last 455 I ever travel on.

This begs the question - when will some 5car 701/5s have to be brought into the mix I wonder ?.
That will make diagramming even more complicated until crew diagrams don't matter (as in all crew trained).

A thought I have had is that SWR will not want to introduce 701s too fast. After all no testing matches a unit's first few exposures to passengers !. There must be only so many engineers to cover that final test/hurdle and only so much potential disruption control will want to risk on a daily/weekly basis !.

Currently the 701s are proving to be quite well behaved as they enter service. Better than a lot of new units this century ?.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2025 ==

Thanks for that. That point is a very good example of how things can change from one Timetable period to another. When I first started (mid 70's) we had numerous night turn EMU jobs, think 0130, 0135 etc etc Waterloo rounders, and others (with other depots), but in my later years we only had one WA night turn involving a GF (location) finish (AFAIR?), the 00.02 Down and the 04.20 Up next day, if my decrepid memory is correct - don't count on that, as the details are somewhat vague now!

But my point being that WTT diagrams can and do change with frequent regularity, often as a result from instructions from on high (latest financial thinking?), and so the details that one old fxxx (myself) remembers, may be correct from my experience, but may not match the details that someone else remembers from their time.

I suppose the same changes would come round again and again after a few years ?.
They did in my line of work. Changing software back and forth over months.

I sometimes wish I had not noticed !.
Nothing to do with ones memory !.

 

[moley]

Not quite that simple, you’d need to redesign the unit and crewing diagrams to accommodate where the units berth. You’d have to start putting the Desiros into the sidings and only Guildford crews sign the sidings. Also doesn’t help that a unit self prep on a 701 is close to an hour, where as an 8 car 450 is close to half that. Net result is more drivers required.

What makes the unit prep so much longer?

 

[NSEWonderer]

What makes the unit prep so much longer?

Newer trains, more time to fault fixes till a more streamlined and reliable process is developed

 

[Big Jumby 74]

This begs the question - when will some 5car 701/5s have to be brought into the mix I wonder ?.
That will make diagramming even more complicated until crew diagrams don't matter (as in all crew trained).

Without any prior knowledge whatsoever, only past experience, at some point 5 cars will need to be introduced in relation to overnight stabling issues (siding lengths), and used (perhaps) on certain first services prior to the core a.m . peak as individual 5 car sets, but diagrammed in such a way as 2 x 5 cars will attach (at most likely Waterloo) to form up as a 10 car for the core a.m. peak period.

It is equally possible that certain diagrams are such that the services that form said diagram(s) do not involve trains inbound to Waterloo in the core a.m. peak period, and thus may be possible to keep diagrammed as 5 car units for that part of the day. They may then need to be re-diagrammed in the mid day period to combine with other 5 car sets to form 10 car sets for the core p.m. peak, all depending on the timetable and which diagrams become involved in the core p.m. peak Waterloo departures.

Hope that makes sense?

 

[Siemens Staines]

In the short term is it not more likely that some of these awkward 455 stabling diagrams go over to 450s, and 701s replace 450s at stabling locations which are not so problematic. There is already a hint of this type of thing with Mondays new 701 diagram which is made up of fragments of three different diagrams, the first few trains of which (2F01 etc) have been 450s hitherto. I do not think for one moment that a pair of 450s will be displaced from metro diagrams at the current time, but that probably a current 2*455 diagram will go over to 2*450?

 

[Bigfoot]

Newer trains, more time to fault fixes till a more streamlined and reliable process is developed

More to check as you walk around (it feels that way anyway) , plus further to walk!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

In the short term is it not more likely that some of these awkward 455 stabling diagrams go over to 450s, and 701s replace 450s at stabling locations which are not so problematic.

That scenario will very likely form part of the ongoing cascade I am sure, but the stock side of such a cascade, however intricate, was in my experience, often driven by crew duties depot by depot, as in sign on /off at certain locations, and the stock concerned was an integral part of same. Hence the need for crews at certain depots trained on the new stock type by certain dates in the introduction plan.

In other words a WTT crew diagram start (or finish) at Guildford could not suddenly be reallocated to Woking, just because the stock could only be stabled at Woking instead of Guildford due to lack of siding space at Guildford. This was always possible under STP engineering works plans eg: out of a Sunday in to a Monday start, but never on a rolling 7 day week basis, which would have broken the crew diagramming and rostering rules for the two depots concerned.

Bare in mind that the services due to be formed by 701's are suburban, so of the outer suburban depots, only Woking, Guildford and Farnham are likely to be involved, and thus (crew) re diagramming/re rostering is very limited in the interim within that group of outer suburban depots, based on those depot's overall number of bodies available in the base plan.

As always was, a very complicated jigsaw for those involved.

 

[NSEWonderer]

More to check as you walk around (it feels that way anyway) , plus further to walk!

It does feel endless at times, especially on an early morning start

 

[Electrostar387]

It does feel endless at times, especially on an early morning start

Although not 701 related specifically, I certainly found a 700 takes longer than an Electrostar to "prep" partly because it is more complex and requires additional brake checks and a few other things that the older trains don't.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

It does feel endless at times, especially on an early morning start

And is that just a PC or a full prep? Don't know how things work these days, but in my time everything was PB by depot drivers at the likes of WD and CY, except (in the case of the latter) one early departure to WA that was a designated PB job for the main line driver as I recall - just the nature of the overall plan at the time!

 

[99009]

For anyone wanting an update on the location+status of every 701/0, I've just posted one in the topic linked below. It's possible I've missed some moves as I can only update it when time allows, but as far as I know it's accurate, so I hope it is helpful to at least some of you.

701 operation

Don't know how much longer I'm going to keep this up, but two landmarks were passed today. First day with 23 units in passenger service Aggregate total of 3,000 days.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[NSEWonderer]

And is that just a PC or a full prep? Don't know how things work these days, but in my time everything was PB by depot drivers at the likes of WD and CY, except (in the case of the latter) one early departure to WA that was a designated PB job for the main line driver as I recall - just the nature of the overall plan at the time!

Both, full prep being an 1hr. Partial being about 40 odd allocated.

 

[Goldfish62]

For anyone wanting an update on the location+status of every 701/0, I've just posted one in the topic linked below. It's possible I've missed some moves as I can only update it when time allows, but as far as I know it's accurate, so I hope it is helpful to at least some of you.

701 operation

Don't know how much longer I'm going to keep this up, but two landmarks were passed today. First day with 23 units in passenger service Aggregate total of 3,000 days.

www.railforums.co.uk

Many thanks for that.

Looks to be more than enough 701s with SWR now to see off the last of the 455s in the coming months.

 

[adc82140]

Once the 455s are seen off, what's the next priority? Getting the 450s off the metro work, or making inroads into the 458 fleet?

 

[Goldfish62]

Once the 455s are seen off, what's the next priority? Getting the 450s off the metro work, or making inroads into the 458 fleet?

Somewhere on these forums it was stated that the 458s would be next. Hardly surprising, they're wholly unsuited in their mainline configuration for metro work and appear to be very troublesome.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There is a light loco to Wimbledon from Derby RTC on Tuesday 04/11/2025.
I wonder what for ?.
Could be for a 701 following 701003 to Derby ?.

Realtime Trains | 0O87 1017 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 04/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 0O87 1017 departure from Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 04/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

No sign of a following movement fitting in so perhaps I should resort to my first incorrect assumption that it was a drag TO Wimbledon from Derby of possibly 701003 !.
Either way I am wondering if the pair of 93s returning from Ely to Worksop via Derby are still at Derby !.

---

There is also the usual delivery on Wednesday 05/11/2025 from Long Marston.

Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1435 Long Marston Gbrf to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 05/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1435 departure from Long Marston Gbrf to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 05/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It apprears loco will then be going to Eastleigh.

 

[Stephen42]

There is a light loco to Wimbledon from Derby RTC on Tuesday 04/11/2025.
I wonder what for ?.
Could be for a 701 following 701003 to Derby ?.

Realtime Trains | 0O87 1017 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs | 04/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 0O87 1017 departure from Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Wimbledon Park Depot Sdgs on 04/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

No sign of a following movement fitting in so perhaps I should resort to my first incorrect assumption that it was a drag TO Wimbledon from Derby of possibly 701003 !.
Either way I am wondering if the pair of 93s returning from Ely to Worksop via Derby are still at Derby !.

It's ROG operated who do the 455 scrap moves for SWR, GBRF do the 701 drags. The Newport scrap run loco goes to Derby on Monday night this week. Something ROG operated then goes back down to Wimbledon, at a guess for another scrap move on Wednesday/Thursday that's not yet published. That one won't be for a 701 at least.

The GBRF loco going to Eastleigh might mean another move from Marchwood later in the week. That move was only published early last week for the one late last week.

 

[43096]

It's ROG operated who do the 455 scrap moves for SWR

Presumably the moves are for Porterbrook, not SWR, as the sets are off lease.

 

[cactustwirly]

Somewhere on these forums it was stated that the 458s would be next. Hardly surprising, they're wholly unsuited in their mainline configuration for metro work and appear to be very troublesome.

But they're on lease for another 2 years

 

[Goldfish62]

But they're on lease for another 2 years

So which services will they be operating on given that they're being displaced by 701s?

 

[adc82140]

But they're on lease for another 2 years

All contracts and leases can be renegotiated

 

[cactustwirly]

All contracts and leases can be renegotiated

They have penalties in the clause

 

[43096]

They have penalties in the clause

Indeed. And in this case there is zero reason why Porterbrook would be interested in negotiating anything shorter.

 

[Stephen42]

In the short term is it not more likely that some of these awkward 455 stabling diagrams go over to 450s, and 701s replace 450s at stabling locations which are not so problematic. There is already a hint of this type of thing with Mondays new 701 diagram which is made up of fragments of three different diagrams, the first few trains of which (2F01 etc) have been 450s hitherto. I do not think for one moment that a pair of 450s will be displaced from metro diagrams at the current time, but that probably a current 2*455 diagram will go over to 2*450?

The stabling for the 455s is similar to the long term plan. For 455 pairs there's still 2 Guildford platforms, 2 Guildford up sidings and 1 Woking yard which will be awkward crew wise for the moment. Most of the metro 450s stable somewhere awkward for at least one end which makes replacing 455s with 450s tricky.

Monday looks like creativity to avoid needing a 701 stabled in those places. The main bulk of the work is on a diagram that normally starts at Guildford up sidings. The 450 diagram 2F01 etc is at Waterloo around the right time to swap in, it usually starts Clapham Yard ending up at Guildford. Instead those 450s are probably doing the 455 pair starting at Clapham Yard ending at Guildford in the long term plan. (That diagram in recent weeks has been altered to start at Wimbledon Park as no 455s for extra confusion).

If I've got the diagrams right, there's 1 Wimbledon Park to Wimbledon Park 455 diagram pair left and the single 455 one which visits daily. On top of that one of the sequences might be able to extract a London based diagram and shorten the 455 sequence, but then everything is Guildford or Woking at one or both ends.

Presumably the moves are for Porterbrook, not SWR, as the sets are off lease.

The redacted public copy of the 455 lease has the redelivery point as Newport which implies it's SWR's responsibility to get them there. The simplicity of the contract might not reflect the real world implementation though.

But they're on lease for another 2 years

Everything else is on lease until 2028. The 458/5s will likely go as soon as no longer required operationally. Getting enough 701s in place to fully replace the 458s will take time and it's plausible that some 450s might be freed before all 458s are replaced if extensions are deemed necessary for longer distance services. It's not ideal, but SWR have more stock than they can possibly use and some of it will be sitting around idle.

A deal might be possible for early handback depending how useful that is to the ROSCO. Otherwise SWR will just sit the remaining term out.

 

[Goldfish62]

They have penalties in the clause

The vast majority contracts in all walks of life have penalties for early termination. It's normal, but doesn't mean that early termination is so onerous it's never exercised.

Paying the leases on 28 troublesome 458s only for them to sit around rotting in sidings taking up room because there's no work for them, or paying the penalty to get shot of them early. The penalty is never going to be more than the total value of the outstanding leases on them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2025 ==

Getting enough 701s in place to fully replace the 458s will take time

Only needs 14 701/0s. Even on the basis of two per month that's only seven months, so potentially by next autumn?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Even on the basis of two per month

Has to be more of that if they want to reach the target of the whole fleet being rolled out within 2 years.

 

[Bigfoot]

The stabling for the 455s is similar to the long term plan. For 455 pairs there's still 2 Guildford platforms, 2 Guildford up sidings and 1 Woking yard which will be awkward crew wise for the moment.

Woking won't be a challenge for long.

 

[Stephen42]

Only needs 14 701/0s. Even on the basis of two per month that's only seven months, so potentially by next autumn?

Would expect before then, my point was that even at pace it will take several months. One a week starting January would be April, so any unnecessary lease term will be closer to one year than two.

Woking won't be a challenge for long.

That's good news, hopefully Guildford won't be far behind.