Will clean air zones expand?

[PeterC]

Probably not worth the cost of a tiny number of people deciding to do it during a three month trial. Most won't think of it.

From bad reviews on Tripadvisor I know that that the number entered isn't verified against the ANPR before payment. I don't know how failures to pick up arrivals and/or departures is handled if payment is made.

 

[Snow1964]

Wiltshire seems to be completely against low emissions zones. There are a few (think it is 7 of which 3 are in Salisbury) roadside emission monitoring stations that regularly exceed air quality levels.

One of the exceed stations is in Bradford on Avon, and when the Town Council asked Wiltshire Council about plans to cut pollution, the official reply said LEZ hurt the poor who might need a car, and policy is do nothing as gradually over next couple of decades more vehicles will be electric so emissions will slowly fall.

Of course in Wiltshire it is impossible to travel between any two of Wiltshires stations except on diesel trains, and electric buses in Wiltshire are negligible. So polluting diesel is ok because otherwise nobody will be able to travel anywhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From bad reviews on Tripadvisor I know that that the number entered isn't verified against the ANPR before payment. I don't know how failures to pick up arrivals and/or departures is handled if payment is made.

ANPR isn't guaranteed reliable, so as with most such car parks it's just done on the basis of "if an arrival or departure occurs outside the paid period give or take a specified leeway then take enforcement action".

With pay on departure you know if that happened as they ask you when you arrived. But this car park is pay on arrival.

 

[Krokodil]

Why would you want to discourage cars from the centre of Oxford?

Are you serious?

The place is a thousand years old. It's completely unsuitable for cars.

 

[cactustwirly]

Are you serious?

The place is a thousand years old. It's completely unsuitable for cars.

Totally

I drive there all the time no problem
City centre has bus gates
Westgate centre clearly isn't a thousand years old

 

[lachlan]

Totally

I drive there all the time no problem
City centre has bus gates
Westgate centre clearly isn't a thousand years old

Do you walk around the centre when you go? I've been a few times by train or park and ride and the areas without cars are much nicer

 

[Krokodil]

Totally

I drive there all the time no problem
City centre has bus gates
Westgate centre clearly isn't a thousand years old

Has it never occurred to you that the fewer cars there are on the road, the better it is for those who remain?

 

[cactustwirly]

Has it never occurred to you that the fewer cars there are on the road, the better it is for those who remain?

Then make the public transport better

 

[lachlan]

Then make the public transport better

Hard to make buses better when they're stuck in traffic that is largely cars

 

[JamesT]

Given the rage I'm seeing on Nextdoor regarding the congestion charge and the number of people vowing to never visit Oxford again and do their shopping in Didcot etc., I'm expecting Oxford's roads to be empty tomorrow.

 

[cactustwirly]

Hard to make buses better when they're stuck in traffic that is largely cars

You have to ask yourself why people use cars instead of buses - buses in the UK are crap and very expensive so there is no reason to use it

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have to ask yourself why people use cars instead of buses - buses in the UK are crap and very expensive so there is no reason to use it

Oxford's bus service is not "crap". You almost sound like you have never been there from your last few posts!

 

[styles]

Given the rage I'm seeing on Nextdoor regarding the congestion charge and the number of people vowing to never visit Oxford again and do their shopping in Didcot etc., I'm expecting Oxford's roads to be empty tomorrow.

Huge bucket of salt required when browsing Nextdoor.

Nextdoor and Facebook would have you believe London's ULEZ expansion is the most unpopular thing since the poll tax. In reality, before it was introduced independent and internal surveys found it roughly 50/50 on support/oppose, currently 97% of vehicles are compliant with it, and Khan got re-elected with an even greater majority after expanding it.

It doesn't help that certain press outlets massively magnify the supposed outrage any time a measure comes in which inconveniences the car dominant approach we've had for the past few decades.

 

[cactustwirly]

Oxford's bus service is not "crap". You almost sound like you have never been there from your last few posts!

Surely if they are so good then everyone would use them no? There wouldn't be any traffic issues

From my house the public transport to Oxford is Crap and double the cost of driving. By the time I have reached Reading train station, I'm halfway up the A34

Many of my friends drive into Oxford and have never used a bus

 

[Krokodil]

You have to ask yourself why people use cars instead of buses - buses in the UK are crap and very expensive so there is no reason to use it

The biggest issue buses have is that they get stuck in traffic. Car traffic.

Huge bucket of salt required when browsing Nextdoor.

It's a good laugh though!

 

[Sonic1234]

To me urban parking taxation is the way to do this. People by and large don't object to paying for parking, and pay by phone schemes* mean it's feasible to implement charges everywhere rather than just in car parks and busy street locations where meter provision is viable. And what's the point of driving there if you can't park? Most people won't go through town centres by choice** as it's not usually quicker than going round the bypass, so the people driving in a town centre are going to that town centre, and if they're going to it they're going to park their car at some point.

Outside of large cities, tourist locations and London's town centres, most on-street parking in towns is in the form of 30 min/1 hour/2 hour free bays. Even in London, there are town centres that offer parking promotions to encourage people to visit (first hour free etc) and a lot of towns have supermarkets near the town centre which get used for free parking (even if not officially sanctioned). The reason for this is to encourage people to use the high street, which at least at one time was Government policy. Charging is going to hasten the decline of town centres and push shoppers to Amazon etc.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

As a cyclist I can confirm that Manchester stinks of diesel - and during the anti-cyclonic gloom we have been having recently it has been particularly bad. EVs are a minority interest but gas guzzling SUVs are most certainly not. I was very disappointed that the clean air zone was dropped - political cowardice in my view. During the height of the protests I followed on my bike a Mitsuibushi pick-up truck emblazoned with anti-zone posters. It was belching out black smoke - absolutely no irony at all. None at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a cyclist I can confirm that Manchester stinks of diesel - and during the anti-cyclonic gloom we have been having recently it has been particularly bad. EVs are a minority interest but gas guzzling SUVs are most certainly not. I was very disappointed that the clean air zone was dropped - political cowardice in my view. During the height of the protests I followed on my bike a Mitsuibushi pick-up truck emblazoned with anti-zone posters. It was belching out black smoke - absolutely no irony at all. None at all.

I've certainly noticed this in small towns and cities compared to central London which used to be filthy but is now very clean. Because of how buildings closely surround the A6, Lancaster is particularly bad for it.

It will fix itself over time, though, as non Euro 6 diesels get old and get scrapped. The benefit of ULEZs is just to do it quicker.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Hard to make buses better when they're stuck in traffic that is largely cars

Oxford's urban area population means it has outgrown the usefulness of buses to an extent (similar situation to Reading and many other urban areas), so it needs something better on core larger satellite to Oxford city centre route.

do their shopping in Didcot etc

Thank them for their gracious sacrifice

 

[jon81uk]

How would you address the issue in parking locations where there is poor internet connection?

If the internet is poor how would a machine take card payments? Cash only would not work now as many people don't carry coins any longer. Would need some form of data connection for a machine to take payment anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the internet is poor how would a machine take card payments? Cash only would not work now as many people don't carry coins any longer. Would need some form of data connection for a machine to take payment anyway.

There are a few car parks like this in the Lake District, Peak District and North Wales. They only offer an all-day rate (as that's what most people want anyway for walkers' car parks) and you can pay up to midnight once you get a signal. You can't do that with a machine!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

Oxford's urban area population means it has outgrown the usefulness of buses to an extent (similar situation to Reading and many other urban areas), so it needs something better on core larger satellite to Oxford city centre route.

I certainly think Oxford would benefit from a tramway, but I wouldn't say frequencies are such that buses *can't* still provide. The problem is simply cars, so I'm all in support of measures to reduce their numbers further. Westgate really shouldn't have been allowed that massive multi storey to be honest, it's the main thing that causes people not to use the P&R.

If you want a city where you can drive unfettered with a big shopping centre, go to MK instead. Oxford is not and should not be that place.

 

[JamesT]

I certainly think Oxford would benefit from a tramway, but I wouldn't say frequencies are such that buses *can't* still provide. The problem is simply cars, so I'm all in support of measures to reduce their numbers further. Westgate really shouldn't have been allowed that massive multi storey to be honest, it's the main thing that causes people not to use the P&R.

If you want a city where you can drive unfettered with a big shopping centre, go to MK instead. Oxford is not and should not be that place.

There isn't any more parking at Westgate than there was before the redevelopment. The difference is that there are shops people actually want to visit there now. The complaint is usually that the Westgate are allowed to set their own parking rates, so they undercut the council car parks.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I certainly think Oxford would benefit from a tramway, but I wouldn't say frequencies are such that buses *can't* still provide. The problem is simply cars, so I'm all in support of measures to reduce their numbers further. Westgate really shouldn't have been allowed that massive multi storey to be honest, it's the main thing that causes people not to use the P&R.

If you want a city where you can drive unfettered with a big shopping centre, go to MK instead. Oxford is not and should not be that place.

The problem isn't about frequencies, it's about speed and coverage.

Oxford buses are great up to the city boundaries, but the deeply stupid very low density suburbia promotion planning policy that Oxfordshire County Council had for decades means that it isn't easy to serve most satellite communities (containing hundreds of thousands of people) adequately with decent journey times on a bus.

Bicester/Banbury/Didcot are lucky enough to have a rail link that is actually competitive journey time wise with car journey times and operates at a reasonably frequency, but for e.g. Witney/Carterton/Faringdon/Thame/Wallingford/Wantage, there's no real competitive options apart from the P&Rs, which can't really support much more modal shift.

Westgate is a partial draw with the car park, but the wealth surrounding Oxford across all 3 nearby counties means that there will always be demand for country people to drive into and visit the Covered Market/theatres/Blackwells etc..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Westgate is a partial draw with the car park, but the wealth surrounding Oxford across all 3 nearby counties means that there will always be demand for country people to drive into and visit the Covered Market/theatres/Blackwells etc..

And that's fine, they just need to use the P&R. Which is good, but could probably be improved further, e.g. late evening frequencies are a bit poor and it struggles to cope with the large numbers at once from a theatre performance.

 

[PeterC]

And that's fine, they just need to use the P&R. Which is good, but could probably be improved further, e.g. late evening frequencies are a bit poor and it struggles to cope with the large numbers at once from a theatre performance.

Depends a little on which car park. I have only used Redbridge and Thornhill. Redbridge gets excellent frequencies day and evening as most Abingdon Road services call there, not just the 300. The 400 is better now that it runs through to Wheatley and, sometimes, Thame. Us oldies also have the option of using the Tube back to Thornhill. After a night out settle in a comfy seat at Gloucester Green and no worries until the car park.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends a little on which car park. I have only used Redbridge and Thornhill. Redbridge gets excellent frequencies day and evening as most Abingdon Road services call there, not just the 300. The 400 is better now that it runs through to Wheatley and, sometimes, Thame. Us oldies also have the option of using the Tube back to Thornhill. After a night out settle in a comfy seat at Gloucester Green and no worries until the car park.

I use Peartree which mostly only has the dedicated bus late at night. Oxford Parkway is a bit pointless for going in, though, it's more for going to London, it never really took off as a P&R site for Oxford and has no dedicated bus.

 

[PeterC]

I use Peartree which mostly only has the dedicated bus late at night. Oxford Parkway is a bit pointless for going in, though, it's more for going to London, it never really took off as a P&R site for Oxford and has no dedicated bus.

Looking at the satellite view on Google Peartree seems most like a "classic" Park and ride with no easy access to the surroundings or other buses. Parkway lost its dedicated route fairly quickly but does have a link to the JR.

On reflection, I have used Water Eaton, as it was then, when Thornhill was full. I have never known that to be a problem since the extension on the east side of the car park was opened.

 

[AlastairFraser]

And that's fine, they just need to use the P&R. Which is good, but could probably be improved further, e.g. late evening frequencies are a bit poor and it struggles to cope with the large numbers at once from a theatre performance.

The remainder who will still drive if there was a tram could use a P&R with a large ZEZ, I agree.

However, you won't handle both the urban area and country passengers with P&R alone, no matter how many buses you use to transport people from the P&R, unless you have some sort of (at minimum) guided busway between most of the P&Rs and the centre (at which point, you may as well invest in a proper regional light rail/tramway network).

There's too much local congestion within Oxford from local residents and narrow arterial roads to run a sort of Glider-style BRT into the centre using continuous bus lanes, and the property demolition you would need to widen those roads is completely untenable.

You also have the issue of the P&R capacity being difficult to expand at many sites due to floodplain/Green Belt land (the Thames Valley area has a great example of a P&R that was built on floodplain and spent more time as a ersatz marina than public transport hub - the old Winnersh Triangle P&R by the Showcase Cinema) or adjacent residential areas.

This is why you need any dedicated public transport corridor separate from the road (whether it be guided busway, tram, railway etc.) to extend out at least part of the way beyond the city boundaries towards Thame/Abingdon/Witney, to stop the more restricted P&Rs getting clogged up with cars from the larger suburban centres in the metro areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the satellite view on Google Peartree seems most like a "classic" Park and ride with no easy access to the surroundings or other buses.

You can easily walk out to the main road if you want, and people do walk in from the nearby hotel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2025 ==

There's too much local congestion within Oxford from local residents and narrow arterial roads to run a sort of Glider-style BRT into the centre using continuous bus lanes, and the property demolition you would need to widen those roads is completely untenable.

That just isn't my experience. But why are locals travelling around the city by car? This should be deprecated too (this is a flaw in the filter concept). It's a small city which is very walkable and cyclable. If you want to get around by car a historic city isn't for you; go live in Milton Keynes, Stevenage or similar if you want that.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That just isn't my experience

You'd find it to be a big issue very quickly if you ramped up P&R bus frequency, especially in the peaks.

But why are locals travelling around the city by car?

Mainly because 1) orbital public transport links are crap in Oxford - partly as a factor of a geography and partly because of poor urban planning, and 2) the universities making land closer to the centre scarce or preserving it completely, pushing key amenities further out like the JR Hospital and lots of the industry/commercial large employers - hence lots of suburb to suburb orbital travel in a city that's not really set up for it.