• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,631
Location
Northampton
The bodyshell might be smaller than a train built without the ability to tilt in mind, but it'd still be built to UIC gauge unless Virgin really are banking on getting future paths to Manchester. But for the London-Continent market alone it wouldn't be advantageous to build such a train to the British loading gauge.
Given that there are various MU speed upgrades to the WCML, tilt is not a guarantee for any hypothetical extension to Manchester.

However Virgin will almost certainly not be wanting to overcomplicate things at the first hurdle so I'd be astonished if they didn't want as close to an "off-the-shelf" product as possible for the initial service launch. Manchester can't happen until other capacity is found on the WCML (given the ORR rejected a load of Open Access applications earlier this year), so it would make sense for it to be a 2nd order (which would be UK-compatible stock) for when there's additional depot capacity and some spare capacity between Wembley and Rugby. If it's even an actual plan at all.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Birkonian

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2017
Messages
292
If it were as simple as adding 2 1/4 hours onto the time taken for a Eurostar currently I'd happily use services from Manchester to the continent, but would it be that? What's the fastest that a train could get from Piccadilly to wherever it would hook up with HS1?

(For the sake of argument let's pretend the paths are there and waiting to be used.)
There is also the time saved after alighting at Euston. I always plan to arrive at Euston 2½ hours before my Eurostar departure. Thst allows for cancellation/delay on the WCML plus walk to St.Pancras and check in.

A big chunk of that can be saved if trains served Manchester (not going to happen though).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A question. Whu do trains have to be stabled on the U.K. side of the tunnel? There seems to be vast rail space outside Lille. 30 mins to Brussels. Could run very early morning services from Lille to London/Brussels to position units.
 
Last edited:

thomalex

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2021
Messages
532
Location
Leeds
The bodyshell might be smaller than a train built without the ability to tilt in mind, but it'd still be built to UIC gauge unless Virgin really are banking on getting future paths to Manchester. But for the London-Continent market alone it wouldn't be advantageous to build such a train to the British loading gauge.

A UIC Pendolino is still wider and more spacious than the UK Pendolino, but we'd have to assume the original artist impression won't be the final design, which I actually don't think it will be. I'd expect it to either end up being a design similar to Amtrak's Avelia Liberty (right) but as an EMU, or Italo's ETR 675 (left). I lean more towards the latter.

View attachment 191403View attachment 191404

Can someone explain how this works. I always believed loading gauge was essentially the distance between the tracks, and in the UK we have the original narrower loading gauge compared to the wider continental one hence why trains can be physically wider, and have double decker trains, in continental Europe. I also understand HS1 is built to this wider loading gauge.

So how would it run if built to the narrower UK loading gauge. Surely the trains wouldn't fit the track?
 

Peterthegreat

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
1,802
Location
South Yorkshire
Yes, but Virgin are also planning over double the amount of services that Trenitalia asked for. Virgin is using 12 trains for 40 services, Trenitalia was proposing 10 trains for 20. So in effect, 3.3 services per day per train vs 2 services per day per train, although probably higher for both considering maintenance requirements. It would also help that Virgin are going for Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam whereas Trenitalia only wanted London-Paris, presumably to link in some way with their Paris-Milan services

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


The New Pendolino may have been chosen specifically for adaptability regarding gauge? Alstom will have experience of building high(ish) speed for British loading gauges what with their experience of the original Pendolino. The New Pendo will presumably have a smaller loading gauge than comparable single-deck products from Siemens or Stadler anyway due to the tilting capability.
There is no way Virgin are going to be able to manage 40 services per day with just 12 sets.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,631
Location
Northampton
Can someone explain how this works. I always believed loading gauge was essentially the distance between the tracks, and in the UK we have the original narrower loading gauge compared to the wider continental one hence why trains can be physically wider, and have double decker trains, in continental Europe. I also understand HS1 is built to this wider loading gauge.

So how would it run if built to the narrower UK loading gauge. Surely the trains wouldn't fit the track?
Deleted - misread the post
 
Last edited:

Sorcerer

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
2,189
Location
Liverpool
Can someone explain how this works. I always believed loading gauge was essentially the distance between the tracks, and in the UK we have the original narrower loading gauge compared to the wider continental one hence why trains can be physically wider, and have double decker trains, in continental Europe. I also understand HS1 is built to this wider loading gauge.

So how would it run if built to the narrower UK loading gauge. Surely the trains wouldn't fit the track?
The loading gauge is basically the clearance between not just each running line but also lineside equipment, platforms, bridges, tunnels and overhead lines. Trains built to UK loading gauge can still run on the continent as long as it has extra steps to the platform and a pantograph able to reach higher overhead cables as we saw with the old Eurostar fleet, but continental designs cannot run in the UK because they would be too large, and conversely even though it is possible to run UK-sized stock on the continent it wouldn't be making the best use of space available to it.
 

NCT

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2025
Messages
2,308
Location
London
Feels like the affected parties had been notified of the decision prior to it being published today? Virgin was very quick with its publicity stunt and it would all have had to be coordinated with LSPH.

Eurostar has been conspicuously quiet so far.
 

TheWierdOne

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2020
Messages
420
Location
Yorkshire
Full summary of the ORR decision letter here, quoted to avoid clogging page space.

ORR Decision letter summary:

Virgin have been granted access to Temple Mills (TMI), for the full degree of access that they asked for as this fit within the capacity judged to be available in the IPEX report earlier this year. This means that Evolyn, Gemini and Trenitalia have had their applications rejected, and Eurostar’s expansion plans cannot make use of the existing spare depot capacity. The ORR does not believe that introducing a new user to TMI will cause a negative effect to depot performance, nor was performance a differentiating factor between the four new entrant applications. The ORR welcomes the UK governments moves to increase depot capacity for international services.

Virgin was assessed as:

  • the highest confidence of operational viability, through more detailed applications and clearer evidence
  • joint highest financial viability with Trenitalia, due to investor commitment and state-backing respectively, as well as reasonable revenue and cost forecasts
  • Social and economic benefit equal to those of Evolyn and Gemini, higher than Trenitalia (due to a limited service plan from Trenitalia)
  • A marginally less efficient use of track capacity due to rolling stock choice, but this is a moot point as track capacity is not a limiting factor.
  • The most credible plan with regard to the ORR duty of promoting the use and development of the rail network to the greatest extent economically practicable.
The applications were all regarded as not being of detriment to TMI’s performance, with the ORR noting that multi-operator depots are in use in the UK for multiple operators in multiple locations for light maintenance.

Information regarding TMI and Eurostar

Eurostar uses TMI for 90% of light and heavy maintenance on both the Class 373 and 374, with limited access to depots in Europe.

Eurostar has plans to add a 5th Amsterdam service, and “other (unspecified) destinations”, causing a 17% increase in use for the class 374s and 29% for the class 373s prior to their withdrawal

The introduction of 30 (with options for 20) double decker Alstom Avelia Horizons is intended to support “potential” new services to destinations such as Geneva and Frankfurt. Eurostar has not specified how many Chunnel services will be operated by the Avelia Horizons.

Both phases of expansion hinge on use of TMI, and Eurostar has announced investment of £80m for expansion of TMI via 4 x 415m maintenance roads in a new shed capable of received the Avelia Horizons.

Eurostar’s plans pose the lowest economic and societal benefits as their new fleet replaces rather than expands (at least initially) their current fleet, and they propose the lowest number of new services, while their longer-term plans were not included in the submissions to the ORR.

Evolyn

No exact start date, plans services from London to Paris initially with proposals for Brussels and Amsterdam

Plans lack sufficient detail on operational details, financial viability (caused by suspiciously low costs and possible omission of staff costs, as well as uncertainty in structure and source of financing). The wider benefit was similar to Virgin and Gemini, but the plans lacked sufficient detail for the ORR to be confident in their viability.

Virgin

20 daily return services across a two-phase launch in 2030.

  • Phase 1: 13 return services to Paris, 4 to Brussels
  • Phase 2: Increased Paris services and 3 return services to Amsterdam via Brussels
Clear, detailed and evidenced application for space at TMI, addressing all necessary dimensions. Virgin has prior experience of entry to rail markets, and the proposed fleet and maintenance plan is compatible with the available capacity at TMI. Virgin outlined consideration of how TMI would be affected by two operators and provided an assessment of the management of this as far as reasonable at this stage.

Virgin has rolling stock procurement agreed, and reasonable expectations of acquiring finance with a clear financial structure and commitment from several investors (evidenced by letters of support from investors and institutions who could provide senior debt). Virgin forecasts profitability by year 3, and has the means to pay short term debt, their margins are tighter, but their forecasts are more comprehensive creating lower risk than other applicants.

Gemini

Starting in 2029:10 return services, 5 to Paris, 5 to Brussls, all stopping at Ebbsfleet. Slower ramp up period than other applicants. Less detailed operational plan with uncertainties over ECS moves.

Proposed rolling stock exceeded operational road length at TMI by 4 metres, potentially resolvable but this was not addressed so was unclear if Gemini could maintain two trains at once on one road. Rolling stock financing and management was presented in high-level overview, cost of Stratford services was likely to be higher than expanding at St P and no costs were explicitly identified for reopening Ebbsfleet. Gemini submitted multiple pieces of evidence outside of agreed timescales which could not be responded to by other applicants, but this would not have made a difference to the final decision as there are too many “unknowns”.

Trenitalia

10 return services London-Paris within six months of launch in 2029. Only applicant to have depot access in Europe, but did still require a UK depot. Same issues with length of rolling stock (Frecciarossa 1000), although this had been addressed in more detail than by Gemini.

Strong financial backing, although possible risk that Trenitalia had understated costs. Lowest number of additional daily services and initially restricted route operations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There is no way Virgin are going to be able to manage 40 services per day with just 12 sets.
20 return services, for 40 single trips overall to avoid misunderstanding, I'd assume that Virgins plans are probably something like 1 London-Amsterdam round trip or two London-Paris round trips per set per day (as well as some out of service for maintenance)
 

parrot

Member
Joined
20 Aug 2025
Messages
10
Location
Essex
I am just happy to see they don't plan on using more Hitachi A-trains, variation on our networks is one of the things that makes it exciting!
 

NCT

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2025
Messages
2,308
Location
London
Based on Virgin's proposed numbers and assuming a marginal increase in frequency from Eurostar, by early 2030s there should be a roughly half-hourly service between London and Paris, and a roughly hourly service between London and Brussels with more than 50% of them extending to Amsterdam.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,631
Location
Northampton
Based on Virgin's proposed numbers and assuming a marginal increase in frequency from Eurostar, by early 2030s there should be a roughly half-hourly service between London and Paris, and a roughly hourly service between London and Brussels with more than 50% of them extending to Amsterdam.
Is there capacity for that on the other side, particularly Brussels-Antwerp?
 

Brubulus

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2022
Messages
974
Location
Cambridge
I think it was chosen because it's the only single-deck 300km/h train currently on offer from Alstom who Virgin have good relations with. They didn't want double-deck units like the Avelia Horizon, and the AGV is discontinued, though it's technology along with the New Pendolino platform was brought into the Avelia Stream platform. It most likely won't have tilting capability though because there is simply no need for it. Tilting trains are pretty much on their way out anyway by the looks of it, so there's really no need to build a trainset designed to accommodate it.
The need for single deck units illustrates the failures of the Channel Tunnel charging regime that primarily charges per passenger instead of per train. The regulator needs to be on the ball regarding Getlink's policy of seemingly charging far more to passenger trains than they make in profit from operating car shuttles.
 

NCT

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2025
Messages
2,308
Location
London
Is there capacity for that on the other side, particularly Brussels-Antwerp?

Yes. Paths exist every hour (save some edge cases where an odd freight occupies a path on the conventional infrastructure in the Netherlands).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The need for single deck units illustrates the failures of the Channel Tunnel charging regime that primarily charges per passenger instead of per train. The regulator needs to be on the ball regarding Getlink's policy of seemingly charging far more to passenger trains than they make in profit from operating car shuttles.

The capacity uplift from single decker to double decker is almost trivial for reasons set out multiple times.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
18,631
Location
Northampton
The need for single deck units illustrates the failures of the Channel Tunnel charging regime that primarily charges per passenger instead of per train. The regulator needs to be on the ball regarding Getlink's policy of seemingly charging far more to passenger trains than they make in profit from operating car shuttles.
It's also the requirement to be able to evacuate a full train to the service tunnel within a specified amount of time.
 

TheWierdOne

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2020
Messages
420
Location
Yorkshire
The capacity uplift from single decker to double decker is almost trivial for reasons set out multiple times.
It's also the requirement to be able to evacuate a full train to the service tunnel within a specified amount of time.
And to add to both of these, double deckers would likely have a higher track access fee due to the higher axle weight causing more wear and tear

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Is there capacity for that on the other side, particularly Brussels-Antwerp?
This is an interesting one, you have to assume there is capacity on European routes. It would be farcical for any applicant to plan a Chunnel service without some form of informal discussion with ProRail, Infrabel and SNCF Réseau
 

Harlequinuk

On Moderation
Joined
15 May 2025
Messages
350
Location
UK
Hasn`t Branson said he wants international sleeper trains from Manchester / Penzance and Edinburgh (amongst others)? A chance to get some of those stored 92s into traffic and buy the ex Nightstar stock from VIA when they rotate it out. Not had a hard life in Canada
 

TheWierdOne

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2020
Messages
420
Location
Yorkshire
Hasn`t Branson said he wants international sleeper trains from Manchester / Penzance and Edinburgh (amongst others)? A chance to get some of those stored 92s into traffic and buy the ex Nightstar stock from VIA when they rotate it out. Not had a hard life in Canada
There have been proposals for international trains to Manchester, and the current Virgin bid made mention of those as a subsequent development, but nobody has seriously suggested international night trains since Nightstar got ditched.
 

williamn

Established Member
Joined
22 May 2008
Messages
1,695
There is also the time saved after alighting at Euston. I always plan to arrive at Euston 2½ hours before my Eurostar departure. Thst allows for cancellation/delay on the WCML plus walk to St.Pancras and check in.

A big chunk of that can be saved if trains served Manchester (not going to happen though).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A question. Whu do trains have to be stabled on the U.K. side of the tunnel? There seems to be vast rail space outside Lille. 30 mins to Brussels. Could run very early morning services from Lille to London/Brussels to position units.
I think its possible that Trenitalia could still go ahead as they have heavy maintenance facilities of their own. I guess the problem with the Lille idea is that track access charges are very high so running empty stock to London for positioning isn't appealing.
 

Amalie

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2023
Messages
177
Location
The Netherlands
I am just happy to see they don't plan on using more Hitachi A-trains, variation on our networks is one of the things that makes it exciting!
I suppose it depends on where you live. An A-train in France/Belgium/The Netherlands with its quirky (for us) British loading gauge and design is significantly more interesting to me as a Dutch person than any Alstom high speed train! But as they say, the grass is greener on the other side and all that.
 

TheWierdOne

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2020
Messages
420
Location
Yorkshire
I think it’s possible that Trenitalia could still go ahead as they have heavy maintenance facilities of their own. I guess the problem with the Lille idea is that track access charges are very high so running empty stock to London for positioning isn't appealing.
They could just do short services from Lille to London and vice versa as necessary. They might not be the most loaded but the (small) revenue might offset track access a little. Given the journey is so short you could get away with minimal/no catering.
 

Harlequinuk

On Moderation
Joined
15 May 2025
Messages
350
Location
UK
Commercial decisions are made based on whether something makes money, not whether something is interesting or boring.

Or if the French can be bothered to stop somewhere - Disney was a popular and heavily used stop, yet it got canned. Calais-Frethun was a significant interchange for onward services, avoiding Paris, also got canned.
 

Pete_uk

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jan 2017
Messages
1,552
Location
Stroud, Glos
We all know Virgin will be good at marketing!

What's the catchment for the intermediate stations between St. P and the Chunnel?
Are they like parkway stations?
 

TheWierdOne

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2020
Messages
420
Location
Yorkshire
Or if the French can be bothered to stop somewhere - Disney was a popular and heavily used stop, yet it got canned. Calais-Frethun was a significant interchange for onward services, avoiding Paris, also got canned.
Calais-Frethun is not a significant interchange, there’s a reason Eurostar still stops at Lille and not Calais.
 

Top