Fine for invalid ticket because route was booked backwards.

[LiamTaylor]

Hello everyone,

Looking for some advice... My wife was travelling from Deal, in Kent, to Stratford, in London a few weeks back. She had purchased a ticket as normal, but had put the 'to' and 'from' stations into Trainline the wrong way around.

However, the ticket she was issued was an 'Anytime Travel' ticket, rather than one that has a specific time of travel from one station to the next. She provided her ticket to an inspector on the journey from Deal to London in the morning and was told her ticket was invalid and that she had to pay a £100 fine and also purchase a new 'valid' ticket at £70/£80. She refused to do this on the basis that she did not have her debit card or enough cash at the time, and they issued a fine.

We have since been through three appeals with Penalty Services where we have argued that, as the fine states the ticket was invalid and the ticket states she was able to travel from Deal to London by anytime that day, then the fine is injustice, but the company has rejected each appeal (I have actually said that they should not have the right to reject an appeal as they have not provided any evidence to show that the ticket was invalid) and have said our next step is to speak with Transport Focus.

During this process I have learnt that Southeastern 'apply different price points for tickets' (basically charge more for people travelling from Deal to London, than London to Deal, at that time in the morning as they deem that travel as more necessary and so profiteer from the need) and that is why there is a discrepancy with the ticket.

So, would we be wasting our time taking this further? I would like to offer paying the difference between the ticket my wife bought and the amount they say she should have paid, but can no longer speak with Penalty Services or Southeastern on this matter. Should we just pay the fine?

Thanks,
Liam

 

[AlterEgo]

Have you exhausted all three appeals? That is, all three were declined?

 

[jfollows]

Buying a return ticket does not require the use of both outward and return parts of the ticket.
The return half being used first invalidates the outward half, but that’s not what happened here.
On the face of it, ticket was valid as used. The return half was used before the outward half, but that’s all.
Or have I misunderstood what happened?

 

[Full Standing]

On the face of it, ticket was valid as used.

It's not mentioned in the OP that they used a return ticket. It could be the case that they used a single ticket.

 

[Watershed]

It's not mentioned in the OP that they used a return ticket. It could be the case that they used a single ticket.

Yes - that is the crucial question. Did the OP's wife buy a single ticket or a return?

 

[30907]

From your description, your wife bought an Anytime Day Return (plus HS) which costs £61-odd for a journey starting in Stratford but £99-odd starting from Deal. (This is the only fare where differential pricing applies.)

This was valid for the journey to Stratford (assuming the date was correct) but would not have been for the return.

What ticket was she then sold?

 

[Snow1964]

It's not mentioned in the OP that they used a return ticket. It could be the case that they used a single ticket.

Yes, seems to be a journey in one direction, with ticket valid in opposite direction.

Isn't clear if there was a return ticket, and if so, was Op caught on, the outward or the return.

 

[JBuchananGB]

More details needed really. Was the ticket purchased a single from Stratford to Deal, then attempted to be used for travel from Deal to Stratford? Or was the ticket purchased a return from Stratford to Deal, with outward trip Stratford to Deal, and return trip Deal to Stratford, and then the return portion offered for the journey from Deal to Stratford. Were the tickets issued for travel on HS1? Was the journey on HS1? What exact fare was paid? If possible upload the ticket to make this clear.
A single from Stratford to Deal would not be valid for travel from Deal to Stratford.
The return portion of a Stratford to Deal return ticket would be valid from Deal to Stratford, but then the outward portion could not be used to go from Stratford to Deal. If the ticket was issued "not HS1" but used on HS1 then it would not be valid.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the ticket was issued "not HS1" but used on HS1 then it would not be valid.

Off route still wouldn't be grounds for a penalty fare.

 

[LiamTaylor]

Thanks all and apologies for the lack of info. My wife had two electronic tickets - One from Deal to London and one from London to Deal - and both included the high speed. She was asked to provide a ticket for inspection at Faversham, travelling up to Stratford from Deal on the early train (around 7:30am from Deal, so close to 8:00am at Folkestone) and I have attached the ticket she provided the inspector.

The penalty fare notice she received in the post states 'Electronic Ticket - Not Valid' (also attached).

All three appeals were rejected by Penalty Services but, to be totally honest, the final 'appeal' was more of a demand for them to prove the ticket was invalid, rather than an actual appeal. the previous two appeals made asked for clarification as to where on the ticket it stated a restriction on time/route of travel.

 

[jfollows]

Anytime Day Return route Plus High Speed Deal to/from London Terminals dated 16 September 2025.

 

[island]

The ticket shown is the return half of an anytime day return from Stratford to Deal. It's valid for travel from Deal to Stratford. The outbound portion of the ticket would not have been valid for the journey back to Deal, as an outbound portion is not valid if the return portion has been used. But that doesn't make a difference here. A passenger is allowed to use only the return half of a ticket if they choose to, although it'll usually not be good value.

The OP says all appeal rights have been exhausted. That's good news and bad news. The good news is that as soon as you've gone through one round of appeal, the passenger can no longer legally be prosecuted for any railway offence related to this incident (not to say any offence was even committed). The bad news is that the appeals having been exhausted, the law considers that a civil debt of £158.50 (or £108.50 if the appeals have been pending for 23 or more of the 44 days since the incident) is due from the passenger to Southeastern. Southeastern can take civil proceedings to claim that, and might go digging into the passenger's ticket history to look for further instances of the ticket portions being used in the wrong order. We rarely hear of civil proceedings being taken.

What's more of a risk is Southeastern taking a prosecution that they shouldn't have taken. They have form for filing cases with a statement to the effect of "either the passenger did not appeal the penalty fare in time or the appeal was unsuccessful". And this is further complicated by a non-binding but persuasive ruling by the senior district judge earlier this year that an unsuccessful penalty fare does not in fact prevent a prosecution. If Southeastern go down this road then we will have to take it is it comes and advise accordingly.

So for now my advice to the OP would be to wait to see what Southeastern's next steps are.

Additionally, the passenger needs to buy the ticket "the right way around" in the future. Knowing now that the ticket isn't valid from Stratford back to Deal after the Deal to Stratford portion's been used, continuing to do things this way will be intentionally avoiding paying the fare for her journey.

edit to fix typo hasn't -> has in first paragraph

 

[Watershed]

"Electronic ticket - not valid" is not grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare. And based on what you have told us, your wife's ticket was indeed valid to head into London (though it would have expired upon arrival, requiring her to buy another ticket to return in the evening).

Unfortunately, having "spent" all three appeals with arguments that likely weren't well-targeted, you no longer have the opportunity to use the appeals process to dispute this. That's not to say that there are no options for pursuing it further, but the alternatives all involve a greater or lesser degree of hassle and risk.

One option - probably the lowest-risk one but which still involves some hassle - is to pay up the wrongly charged PF and then sue SE afterwards to try and recover its value.

Another option is to refuse to pay and to allow SE to take it further. The problem is that whilst the law does not allow SE to prosecute people once they have brought a first-stage appeal against a PF, many train companies ignore the law and prosecute anyway.

That would potentially leave you with an unfounded and unlawful prosecution to defend - something where (due to the stakes) you'd likely want legal representation. But that would be at your own cost as you'd be unlikely to get legal aid for such a case..

The third option is that SE go through the "correct" channels for pursuing an unpaid PF, which involves bringing a civil claim against you in the same way as you'd bring against then if you'd already paid. The disadvantage of this approach is that firstly, it relies on them doing the right thing - which they probably wouldn't - and that it puts them on the front foot.

If you brought a civil claim against them, you could choose to drop the case at any point. There is a small chance of being held liable for some costs, but it's very much on your terms. The same can't be said if they bring a claim against you.

If you bring a claim against them you could also consider bringing a claim for a breach of the GDPR, for unlawfully obtaining and processing your wife's personal data (name, address and DoB) because she showed a valid ticket and they therefore had no legal grounds for requiring her to provide any details.

That could be fairly lucrative if successful - you can claim for distress caused, for example, which would typically result in an award of £250-750 compensation if you win. Of course bringing a civil claim is not without its complications either. It is more feasible to bring as a "litigant in person" (i.e. someone who isn't legally represented) since the Small Claims system is designed to avoid the need for solicitors, but there are still processes to be followed and it will take a fair amount of time and effort - assuming SE don't just fold when they receive the court claim form.

Hopefully that helps to illustrate the options a little bit more clearly.

 

[furlong]

I'd go for the Transport Focus route. Report the failure of the PF process to them and invite them to try to intervene.

 

[Hadders]

The good news is that as soon as you've gone through one round of appeal, the passenger can no longer legally be prosecuted for any railway offence related to this incident

Another option is to refuse to pay and to allow SE to take it further. The problem is that whilst the law does not allow SE to prosecute people once they have brought a first-stage appeal against a PF, many train companies ignore the law and prosecute anyway.

I agree with both of you here, but remember we had the bizarre ruling back in February from the Chief Magistrate who believes that a prosecution can take place. Admitedely a ruling in the Magistrates Court doesn't create a legal precedent but it's perhaps something we should at least point out.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Island did mention that, but worth adding that the ruling was a Southeastern case so we can’t call it a theoretical risk, they have done it.

However, I can’t see them wanting to pursue a similar case against an active defendant. See here for a recent Northern example that was ultimately withdrawn:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/amended-title-sjp-after-penalty-notice-cancelled.283802/

 

[enyoueffsea]

My wife was travelling from Deal, in Kent, to Stratford, in London a few weeks back. She had purchased a ticket as normal, but had put the 'to' and 'from' stations into Trainline the wrong way 'round. However, the ticket she was issued was an 'Anytime Travel' ticket, rather than one that has a specific time of travel from one station to the next. She provided her ticket to an inspector on the journey from Deal to London in the morning and was told her ticket was invalid

I may be missing something really obvious here… but if she purchased a return ticket but put the stations in the wrong way round, and this occurred on the outbound trip, how is the Deal to Stratford ticket in post #10 invalid? Or how would it even be flagged to an RPI as invalid? How would they know she was travelling on her outbound journey rather than her inbound?

Secondly, would she not have been in possession of both a Deal to Stratford and Stratford to Deal ticket at the point she was asked to present a ticket? So no matter which direction she was travelling in, she would have been able to produce either ticket?

 

[saismee]

The outbound and inbound tickets are two separate e-tickets.

 

[enyoueffsea]

The outbound and inbound tickets are two separate e-tickets.

I know that. But how does the RPI know she is travelling outbound or inbound?

I just don’t understand how a scan of the ticket in post #10 would have flagged as erroneous to the RPI to lead to the conversation and PFN.

 

[Hadders]

I may be missing something really obvious here… but if she purchased a return ticket but put the stations in the wrong way round, and this occurred on the outbound trip, how is the Deal to Stratford ticket in post #10 invalid?

Based on what we've been told the OP's wife purchased an Anytime Day Return from Stratford International to Deal. This consists of two portions, outward (London to Deal) and return (Deal to Stratford International).

The OP's wide used the return portion of the ticket to travel from Deal to London in the morning. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but once the return portion of the ticket starts to be used then the outward portion cannot be used. The inspector should have advised the OP's wife that they would need to purchase a new ticket for their return journey.

A scan of a return portion of a day return ticket at 08:00 in the morning would be unusual (although as noted above not at that point invalid) and my guess is that has aroused the inspectors suspicion.

Deal to Stratford International Anytime Day Return costs £99.50 compared to Stratford International to Deal which is £61.80. The OP tells us that this was an error, does the ticket purchasing history support this?

 

[LiamTaylor]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I have talked with Transport Focus and mentioned what was said earlier about the ‘Outbound’ ticket actually being invalid. They are looking into it.
My thinking now is that a fine/charge was issued because my wife’s ticket states return and she was on the 7:30am from Deal, so there would not have been time for her to have travelled from London to Deal before ‘returning’. Would that make a difference? If she had purchase a multiple day return ticket (as in travelled from London to Deal the day before) would this have been flagged on the ticket?

 

[enyoueffsea]

Based on what we've been told the OP's wife purchased an Anytime Day Return from Stratford International to Deal. This consists of two portions, outward (London to Deal) and return (Deal to Stratford International).

The OP's wide used the return portion of the ticket to travel from Deal to London in the morning. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but once the return portion of the ticket starts to be used then the outward portion cannot be used. The inspector should have advised the OP's wife that they would need to purchase a new ticket for their return journey.

A scan of a return portion of a day return ticket at 08:00 in the morning would be unusual (although as noted above not at that point invalid) and my guess is that has aroused the inspectors suspicion.

Deal to Stratford International Anytime Day Return costs £99.50 compared to Stratford International to Deal which is £61.80. The OP tells us that this was an error, does the ticket purchasing history support this?

Thanks. That makes a lot more sense to me. I didn’t realise the scan showed whether a return ticket was outbound or inbound.

 

[jfollows]

My thinking now is that a fine/charge was issued because my wife’s ticket states return and she was on the 7:30am from Deal, so there would not have been time for her to have travelled from London to Deal before ‘returning’. Would that make a difference? If she had purchase a multiple day return ticket (as in travelled from London to Deal the day before) would this have been flagged on the ticket?

No, that's irrelevant, if you have a return ticket and you use the return portion when it's inside its validity (any time in this case) you can simply choose not to use the outbound portion. Hypotheticals about impossibility of having made an outbound journey are irrelevant.

It’s not unknown for railway staff, including ticket inspectors, to make up the rules to suit their interpretation of how they think things should be.

 

[sot]

Is this the first time the journey has been made in that way?

As mentioned before are all previous DAY returns booked in this direction?

Maybe it is more of a sting if they have noticed out of order scanning.

Surely so long as no out of sequence previous scans have occurred then there is nothing wrong here.

If there is a period return that is also cheaper the 'wrong way' then there is no issue bootstrapping with the first single then using the period returns outbound to get home and return to get to work each morning and repeat as infinitum.

If it is a genuine first time occurrence then so long as you didn't use the outbound to get home that night then nothing has been done wrong .

 

[jfollows]

I agree with @sot , peoples’ plans change sometimes and return tickets can be cheaper than singles. Promotional tickets can be promoted in one direction only, I remember something like this for Oxford to London and return when I was going the other way, so I just bought a ticket and didn’t use the first one outbound.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

While I think we all agree that the ticket was valid (because there's nothing wrong with throwing away the outgoing leg of a return ticket and only making the return trip), it seems to me that the problem is that all 3 appeal opportunities have been used without the railway understanding this point. So the OP's wife faces a penalty fare which they are no longer able to appeal. So what is the best thing for her to do in the circumstances?

 

[AlterEgo]

While I think we all agree that the ticket was valid (because there's nothing wrong with throwing away the outgoing leg of a return ticket and only making the return trip), it seems to me that the problem is that all 3 appeal opportunities have been used without the railway understanding this point. So the OP's wife faces a penalty fare which they are no longer able to appeal. So what is the best thing for her to do in the circumstances?

Pay the penalty fare, as it is legally due, and then write to customer services and/or Transport Focus as the next point. Then take it from there.

 

[WesternLancer]

Pay the penalty fare, as it is legally due, and then write to customer services and/or Transport Focus as the next point. Then take it from there.

agreed, and @LiamTaylor - do be mindful of the prompt payment discount now the Appeals process itself has completed. Do not miss the deadline for that (as I suspect any involvement of Transport Focus / Customer Services will not stop the Penalty Fare sum increasing if not paid within the timeframe for the reduced sum (£50 reduction) so I would think better to avoid paying more than you need. Presumably if further involvement from Transport Focus was successful sums would be refunded.

Unless others think differently of course.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2025 ==

Thanks for all the info everyone. I have talked with Transport Focus and mentioned what was said earlier about the ‘Outbound’ ticket actually being invalid. They are looking into it.
My thinking now is that a fine/charge was issued because my wife’s ticket states return and she was on the 7:30am from Deal, so there would not have been time for her to have travelled from London to Deal before ‘returning’. Would that make a difference? If she had purchase a multiple day return ticket (as in travelled from London to Deal the day before) would this have been flagged on the ticket?

Personally I'd be strongly tempted to follow up any call in writing myself. People here will check your wording if you draft what you want to send them.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I have talked with Transport Focus and mentioned what was said earlier about the ‘Outbound’ ticket actually being invalid. They are looking into it.
My thinking now is that a fine/charge was issued because my wife’s ticket states return and she was on the 7:30am from Deal, so there would not have been time for her to have travelled from London to Deal before ‘returning’.

It is still not clear exactly which portion she presented, or what exactly has happened, in my mind. I suspect she simply presented the incorrect portion and didn't present the "correct direction" one.

 

[sot]

Very poor form of staff to not say "sorry that's the wrong way, do you have another one?"