"Transforming Rail in Wales" Interview with TFW CEO

[Caaardiff]

Green Signals interview with James Price, CEO of TFW.

Some interesting points raised:

CVL
- Testing is under way of 398's, but no Driver training will start until they are at a suitably reliable stage.
- Issues with beacons on TAM lines.
- Timetable improvements still to come, with decreased dwell times to improve journey times.
- Crossrail to Cardiff Bay to start construction in 2027
- Improvements to Cardiff West and Coryton lines to allow 4tph

W&B
- 197's have had ARB cracking issues, similar to IET's and 195s. Only affecting a small number of units.
- Relationships with CAF have improved. A comment about contracts sounds like an admission that the initial contract between TFW and CAF wasn't particularly great for either party.
- UK Govt funding will allow South East Wales stations to be constructed along with works on the North Wales Coast
- An aspiration to run 777's on Bidston line and into Liverpool.
- Padeswood Cement Factory improvements to reduce movements on the main line.
- PAYG to be launched in North Wales
- Electrification of the North Wales Main line.
- Mention of IET's and a business case. There has been rumours of IET's replacing Mk4's. TFW currently have no units that would run under wires in North Wales.
- Thinking behind West Wales - Bristol is mainly due to lack of direct connectivity. He mentions this application for this route has gone in "alongside lots of other applications"

Funding for a lot of the project was from EU funding. TFW need to show the investment was worthwhile, both as a network and economically, and if they can't prove it, some of the money can be taken back.

Would like there to be a GBR Cymru.

 

[321362]

North Coast line electrification is interesting as I was under the impression that bimode 805s were considered a cheaper alternative to full electrification and that's why they were brought in in the first place. Obviously that's only AWC and not for TfW (rumour has it that TfW are also interested in some form of 80x fleet) but it would seem a bit silly to get a newbuild bimode fleet and then immediately electrify. Seems like a solid idea in general though.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

North Coast line electrification is interesting as I was under the impression that bimode 805s were considered a cheaper alternative to full electrification and that's why they were brought in in the first place. Obviously that's only AWC and not for TfW (rumour has it that TfW are also interested in some form of 80x fleet) but it would seem a bit silly to get a newbuild bimode fleet and then immediately electrify. Seems like a solid idea in general though.

I'm no expert but I would guess electrification as far as Llandudno Junction would be pretty easy. After that though you've got the Grade One listed bridge at Conwy and the Brittania Bridge across the Menai straights. Hard to see how either could be wired.

 

[Krokodil]

There has been rumours of IET's replacing Mk4's.

I suspect that will stay a rumour. Why would TfW order brand new 140mph capable trains when the only mileage that exceeds 100mph is Sandbach - Cheadle Hulme? Particularly given that Hitachi isn't exactly a cheap supplier to order from - weren't they pricing off orders fairly recently? I suspect that the advantages of fleet commonality would mean more 197s to replace the Mk4s. If electrification in North Wales becomes a serious consideration then I'd expect some kind of regional express bimode unit (FLIRT?) which would then allow 197s to be cascaded onto the Marches and Pembrokeshire branches.

I'm no expert but I would guess electrification as far as Llandudno Junction would be pretty easy. After that though you've got the Grade One listed bridge at Conwy and the Brittania Bridge across the Menai straights. Hard to see how either could be wired.

The most difficult section is surely Chester-Crewe. Particularly Christleton Tunnel. This is where discontinuous electrification would come in handy.

 

[Caaardiff]

I suspect that will stay a rumour. Why would TfW order brand new 140mph capable trains when the only mileage that exceeds 100mph is Sandbach - Cheadle Hulme? Particularly given that Hitachi isn't exactly a cheap supplier to order from - weren't they pricing off orders fairly recently? I suspect that the advantages of fleet commonality would mean more 197s to replace the Mk4s. If electrification in North Wales becomes a serious consideration then I'd expect some kind of regional express bimode unit (FLIRT?) which would then allow 197s to be cascaded onto the Marches and Pembrokeshire branches.

As a direct replacement for the Mk4s. 5 car trains with the option of catering carriage/kitchen and designated First class, along with the flexibility to future proof the fleet with the ability to operate under wires.
With sufficient numbers in the fleet it would also mean a standardised product from South Wales to Manchester rather than just 2 hourly. Which would free up a lot of 197s to increase capacity on other routes as well as open new ones.

 

[John R]

weren't they pricing off orders fairly recently?

They were reputed to be doing so, but since then have won orders with Grand Central and Lumo, so maybe their approach has changed Having extended the production line for a couple more years I could imagine that there is more appetite for keeping it rolling, especially if the orders are a pretty standard repeat product.

 

[Krokodil]

As a direct replacement for the Mk4s. 5 car trains with the option of catering carriage/kitchen and designated First class, along with the flexibility to future proof the fleet with the ability to operate under wires.

All things that you can have with FLIRTs or Civities. With the added bonus of commonality with the existing fleets.

 

[Caaardiff]

Flirts don't have the range for the marches work. 231s can't even cover a full day on Maesteg to Ebbw Vales.

Civities may also be an option, still a 5 car Bi-mode, so same concept as an IET, not sure there would be huge commonality with a 197 apart from the company that makes them.

 

[Russel]

How likely is North Wales electrification to actually happen?

I'm sure Rishi Sunak promised it when he cancelled HS2 to Manchester, we've had a change of Government since then...

 

[london004]

Green Signals interview with James Price, CEO of TFW.

Some interesting points raised:

CVL
- Testing is under way of 398's, but no Driver training will start until they are at a suitably reliable stage.
- Issues with beacons on TAM lines.
- Timetable improvements still to come, with decreased dwell times to improve journey times.
- Crossrail to Cardiff Bay to start construction in 2027
- Improvements to Cardiff West and Coryton lines to allow 4tph

W&B
- 197's have had ARB cracking issues, similar to IET's and 195s. Only affecting a small number of units.
- Relationships with CAF have improved. A comment about contracts sounds like an admission that the initial contract between TFW and CAF wasn't particularly great for either party.
- UK Govt funding will allow South East Wales stations to be constructed along with works on the North Wales Coast
- An aspiration to run 777's on Bidston line and into Liverpool.
- Padeswood Cement Factory improvements to reduce movements on the main line.
- PAYG to be launched in North Wales
- Electrification of the North Wales Main line.
- Mention of IET's and a business case. There has been rumours of IET's replacing Mk4's. TFW currently have no units that would run under wires in North Wales.
- Thinking behind West Wales - Bristol is mainly due to lack of direct connectivity. He mentions this application for this route has gone in "alongside lots of other applications"

Funding for a lot of the project was from EU funding. TFW need to show the investment was worthwhile, both as a network and economically, and if they can't prove it, some of the money can be taken back.

Would like there to be a GBR Cymru.

Really interesting update, sounds like there’s steady progress despite the challenges. Good to see movement on North Wales electrification and the Cardiff Bay link too.

 

[sd0733]

As a direct replacement for the Mk4s. 5 car trains with the option of catering carriage/kitchen and designated First class, along with the flexibility to future proof the fleet with the ability to operate under wires.

All of which can be done with a bi-mode loco on the Mk4 sets which is something that's actively being looked at.

 

[Harlequinuk]

93 or 99?

 

[sd0733]

93 or 99?

There's several considered options, 93s and 99s being 2 of them. Both would need to be different spec to what's currently running with more power on diesel.

 

[Caaardiff]

All of which can be done with a bi-mode loco on the Mk4 sets which is something that's actively being looked at.

Another option yes, but those mk4 carriages aren't getting any younger.

 

[Rail Quest]

There's several considered options, 93s and 99s being 2 of them. Both would need to be different spec to what's currently running with more power on diesel.

Would the 99 really need more diesel power to run the MK4 diagrams? It's engine may be less powerful than the 67 but, when the efficiency gains are taken into account, the power at rail shouldn't differ too drastically. I accept the steep gradients of the Marches could prove a challenge for them, but 5x MK4 carriages and a DVT is not exactly a heavy load compared to some of the trains GBRf is hoping to use them on (in diesel).

 

[stevieinselby]

North Coast line electrification is interesting as I was under the impression that bimode 805s were considered a cheaper alternative to full electrification and that's why they were brought in in the first place. Obviously that's only AWC and not for TfW (rumour has it that TfW are also interested in some form of 80x fleet) but it would seem a bit silly to get a newbuild bimode fleet and then immediately electrify. Seems like a solid idea in general though.

It's worse than that – not only have AWC just bought a new bi-mode fleet for the route, but TfW have bought a new old-school diesel fleet for it, and they're the ones that run the most trains along the line.
That said, I would question the word "immediately" ... even if the go-ahead was given today for the North Wales main line to be electrified, how many years do you think it would be before trains could run on electric power all the way from Crewe to Caergybi? Long enough that it was worth AWC buying bi-modes for the interim, for sure!

 

[Krokodil]

Flirts don't have the range for the marches work

They'd be used on North Wales Coast post electrification or on SWML services to free up 197s.

Civities may also be an option, still a 5 car Bi-mode, so same concept as an IET, not sure there would be huge commonality with a 197 apart from the company that makes them.

Enough to reduce the training time and allow rescue of and by 197s.

 

[Caaardiff]

They'd be used on North Wales Coast post electrification or on SWML services to free up 197s.

Enough to reduce the training time and allow rescue of and by 197s.

What parts of Chester to Manchester route is electrified?

It would have to be 756s in that case which would require a fair bit of the route to be electrified and the rest on battery.

Where would they be maintained?

Same in South Wales. Theres no electrification past Cardiff, if it gets done then it'll be as far as Swansea. Flirts would be good on this route, but won't be able to work to West Wales, so you'd only end up with Cardiff - Swansea stoppers, which means changing the timetable again as they are currently served by Pembroke Dock services.

197s can only just be managed to be rescued by 196s but are still not compatible and they are practically the same train. It's actually rare for a 197 to need rescuing by another 197 so that case doesn't really stack up.

Either way it doesn't matter if it's a civity or IET, it's the same concept, 5 car Intercity train to replace Mk4s and potentially make use of wires. IETs were specifically mentioned in the interview which is why it's been raised.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What parts of Chester to Manchester route is electrified?

Warrington BQ-Manchester Airport (30 miles) is wired (from Acton Grange Jn).
If Chester-Warrington/Runcorn was wired (18 miles), Chester-Manchester/Liverpool could go EMU/bi-mode, and Northern's Chester-Leeds service could go bi-mode to Man Vic.

Rishi Sunak offered £1bn for North Wales electrification, in the context of union connectivity (ie to Ireland as well as to Wales).
The Welsh Government was previously uninterested, on the basis that if there was £1bn available, they would determine where it was spent (ie in the south!).
But they seem to have had a change of mind based on North Wales Metro plans and wider regional support from adjacent NW England interests.

 

[Krokodil]

What parts of Chester to Manchester route is electrified?

Acton Grange Junction onwards. James Price did mention in the interview that further wiring was under consideration and if this goes ahead then bimode units are certainly a viable proposition - far more so than on the Marches where you're unlikely to see any wiring south of Crewe or north of Maindee any time soon.

Same in South Wales. Theres no electrification past Cardiff, if it gets done then it'll be as far as Swansea

Yes, so a few FLIRTs on the Swanline services to free up 197s.

IETs were specifically mentioned in the interview which is why it's been raised.

They were vaguely mentioned as an example of a bimode unit. There was no suggestion that TfW would be procuring some.

 

[Caaardiff]

Rishi Sunak offered £1bn for North Wales electrification, in the context of union connectivity (ie to Ireland as well as to Wales).
The Welsh Government was previously uninterested, on the basis that if there was £1bn available, they would determine where it was spent (ie in the south!).
But they seem to have had a change of mind based on North Wales Metro plans and wider regional support from adjacent NW England interests.

Lets be honest, Rishi Sunak offered to electrify North Wales in the run up to the election, with no proof on how it would be funded...

Yes, so a few FLIRTs on the Swanline services to free up 197s.

Which contradicts James Prices reasoning for West Wales - Bristol. It would create a Swansea - Bristol with Flirts, but would mean other West Wales services running as far as Swansea. Through trains from West Wales to South East Wales/Bristol is what is desired.

 

[43096]

93 or 99?

A 93 is not powerful enough for passenger work away from the wires.

 

[anthony263]

What parts of Chester to Manchester route is electrified?

It would have to be 756s in that case which would require a fair bit of the route to be electrified and the rest on battery.

Where would they be maintained?

Same in South Wales. Theres no electrification past Cardiff, if it gets done then it'll be as far as Swansea. Flirts would be good on this route, but won't be able to work to West Wales, so you'd only end up with Cardiff - Swansea stoppers, which means changing the timetable again as they are currently served by Pembroke Dock services.

197s can only just be managed to be rescued by 196s but are still not compatible and they are practically the same train. It's actually rare for a 197 to need rescuing by another 197 so that case doesn't really stack up.

Either way it doesn't matter if it's a civity or IET, it's the same concept, 5 car Intercity train to replace Mk4s and potentially make use of wires. IETs were specifically mentioned in the interview which is why it's been raised.

Id quite happily like to see the swqnline split from pembroke dock services again.

They should wire swansea station as a class 756 should have enough range to run from cardiff to swansea.

A 756 could then recharge during its layover there which would be 20-25 minutes if they dont run to pembroke dock. Didnt hitachi offer to wire swansea station when they werw building the new depot?

As for replacing the mk4s maybe. Tfw should ask CAF to build a new batch of mk5A's or a tag on order to LNERs class 897s although 5 carriage rakes instead of 10.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

A 93 is not powerful enough for passenger work away from the wires.

Could be if it had the batteries and engine removed and replaced by the same engine as the 99s

 

[Harlequinuk]

A 93 is not powerful enough for passenger work away from the wires.

Do you have any proof of that? Since it has been tested hauling a rake of mk4s .

 

[sd0733]

Do you have any proof of that? Since it has been tested hauling a rake of mk4s .

Where has one been tested on Mk4s? Certainly not a TfW set in diesel power.
The current spec of 93s is nowhere near powerful enough on diesel to haul a rake.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

Another option yes, but those mk4 carriages aren't getting any younger.

Theyre about to go in to start a life extension overhaul and some quite major component replacement so they're going nowhere yet. Believe around 2035-2037 is the expected life span for the coaches. Although that does push them to nearly 50, the scope for the overhaul is pretty extensive.
One rake is already receiving some electrical and lighting upgrades to replace obsolete components.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

Would the 99 really need more diesel power to run the MK4 diagrams? It's engine may be less powerful than the 67 but, when the efficiency gains are taken into account, the power at rail shouldn't differ too drastically. I accept the steep gradients of the Marches could prove a challenge for them, but 5x MK4 carriages and a DVT is not exactly a heavy load compared to some of the trains GBRf is hoping to use them on (in diesel).

If a 99 is eventually chosen, they would have different gearing for passenger over freight and also ETH which would affect available power over freight work.

 

[Harlequinuk]

Where has one been tested on Mk4s? Certainly not a TfW set in diesel power.
The current spec of 93s is nowhere near powerful enough on diesel to haul a rake.

Class 27 used to run around Scotland on frieght or passenger , and has the same power on Diesel (Type 2 ) @ 1200 hp. Put on the hybrid battery and your up to type 3 power, same as a Class 33. So it has enough power

 

[Rail Quest]

If a 99 is eventually chosen, they would have different gearing for passenger over freight and also ETH which would affect available power over freight work.

Regarding the gearing, the existing locos only need a software and damper change to increase their maximum speed to 100mph (so no change to the gearing), according to Bob Tiller (source: Green Signals interview with Bob Tiller).

For the ETH, I take your point, but given that this same disadvantage also applies to the class 67s, we should be able to compare the numbers on an even playing field. A class 67 is 1,864 kW at rail, before ETH is factored in. A class 99 on diesel at rail is unknown outside of Stadler/GBRf (as far as I'm aware), but there was a prediction that they should deliver 1,600 kW (source: RailEngineer article on strategic freight). That's about 15% less than a class 67 if I'm not mistaken. So, they'll be undeniably less powerful, but is that gap significant enough that the latter would be unable to run the required diagrams? I'd love to see the test data from the 99s on diesel. It'd be fascinating to see what the real at rail performance is.

 

[Bevan Price]

Class 99 diesel power is 2400 hp, so a bit less than a Class 45 or 47. However, the class speed limit is only 75 mph, which makes them unsuitable for much UK passenger work....... They would need to be upgraded to permit 100 mph to be really useful on passenger work.

With only 1200 hp in diesel mode, Class 93 will have inadequate acceleration to work most UK passenger schedules.

 

[43096]

Do you have any proof of that?

Put it this way, the rating on diesel is 1,205hp, with battery providing another 535hp - so total 1,740hp, or Class 37 equivalent. That's only until the Duracells run out (which they undoubtedly would on that route), at which point you are back to less than a Class 25. But it isn't 1975 any more and not steam heated, so from that deduct train supply. You are now in haulage capacity of around the same as a single Class 20. No chance of meeting sectional running times vs a 3,200hp Class 67.

Since it has been tested hauling a rake of mk4s .

And do you have any proof of that...?

 

[Harlequinuk]

Switch on the battery for hybrid and it has 1700 hp, same as a Type 3 then factor in the abs/traction control. Seems alot of people are hating on the 93 without subjectively asking what it can actually do.