Complexity isn't the Issue with Rail Fares...

[davart]

The complexity doesn't just come from the fare itself.

In West Yorks people used to be able leave after 9:30 in the morning and return any time they wanted.

Then a few years back, the government forced WYorks to introduce an evening peak. This was completely pointless other than to raise fares revenue. Not only do people now have an element of extra complexity deciding when to come back, there's added complexity of whether a station you're travelling to is in WYorks and attracts an evening peak.

All completely unnecessary, but this complexity is apparently good as it fleeces more out of passengers.

The other silliness in West Yorkshire is the cost for someone who lives close to the border e.g. Darton and being able to purchase a cost effective monthly pass.

It's a shame you can't buy the equivalent of a South Yorkshire Travelmaster that covers a maximum radius from your home station.

 

[AlterEgo]

But you can finish short if it is a return ticket.

You can finish short on a one way, too.

 

[Starmill]

I will comment about some of the other aspects of this later, but I do have to pick up on this one. TfL, quite sensibly, want to ensure that people given priv rates really are entitled to them. If staff add the wrong discount to a card (particularly 75% off rather than 33% off) then they get in trouble. The unions don't like that, understandably. Therefore, I believe that the unions will only allow a small subset of staff who have been appropriately trained to add the priv discount. The fact that this instruction from the union adversely affects other members of the same union is something that I can't get my head round. I would certainly be lobbying hard if I worked in a position that meant I was being adversely affected.

Indeed. Although this isn't the sole issue, others are the attitude of the staff to trying to help and the fact that new cards aren't able to be set as registered by Elizabeth line staff (or they are but they believe they aren't). It's never possible to add the discount without the card first being set to registered. Many staff have the belief that using the card after it's been connected to an online account will update the registration status on the card but I don't think that's actually true. Instead the only way to get it registered is to take it to an LU station where the staff are a lot more practical. Another issue is that no London Overground managed stations can set the discount, even ones with the appropriate staff, the reasons for which have been refused to be disclosed.

 

[Sonic1234]

One thing to note is that there is actually very little jeopardy using off peaks since the worst that can happen is you pay the excess to the anytime.

Assuming the person enforcing the rules at the time is competent. Practically, the rules are what the person in front of you says they are. Even making a complaint after doesn't guarantee it will be resolved.

Not many people check the fare with contactless. They just assume it'll be reasonable.

This is the whole point in contactless, and why there's a big push towards it with Oval. The railway can not make fares acceptable to the public, so it hides them. (Yes, you can check the fare on the TfL fare finder. Yes, you can register with TfL and check what you've been charged. Yes, you can check your bank statements - but people don't)

 

[yorksrob]

What is notable is that XC managed to change all their Off Peaks to a "not before 0930" restriction which is dead simple, aside from the perennial question of whether 0930 itself is restricted or not, because I always forget that. Yet nobody else has done that. Why?

Evening restrictions are needed if you single-fare price, I suppose, but even then that could be simple and memorable i.e. a standard 1600-1900. Yes, it creates anomalies, but you can smooth those using Advance fares.

Single leg pricing is only really useful for longer distance trips. Certainly not short hops within West Yorkshire.

Would passengers in the north favour the removal of cheaper Northern-only fares? Probably not. Would longer-distance passengers on CrossCountry favour even higher loadings on Leeds to York if the fares are no longer restricted by TOC? Probably not.

I'd happily volunteer to go through the route and TOC restrictions and work out if they make commercial and operational sense on today's railway, though...

We only really need Northern only fares because TPE (InterCity wannabees) have spent the last twenty years hiking up walk on fares, presumably to encourage take up of their advance purchase fares for day-trip type journeys.

The other silliness in West Yorkshire is the cost for someone who lives close to the border e.g. Darton and being able to purchase a cost effective monthly pass.

It's a shame you can't buy the equivalent of a South Yorkshire Travelmaster that covers a maximum radius from your home station.

Indeed. Zone to X fares would make things simpler for people making triangular journeys.

 

[island]

There is no risk of prosecution as long as you remain within the Oyster area if you're using Oyster, or the Contactless area if you're using Contactless.

There is if you exceed maximum journey duration on an Oyster.

 

[WAB]

We only really need Northern only fares because TPE (InterCity wannabees) have spent the last twenty years hiking up walk on fares, presumably to encourage take up of their advance purchase fares for day-trip type journeys.

Arguably it isn't in favour of the passenger. Passengers typically desire the faster train to have capacity for them to make the journey at the lowest cost, and the fastest time, leaving room on the slower trains for passengers joining and leaving at the intermediate stations.

The restrictions effectively recognise that there is some spare capacity on the slower trains and not so much spare capacity on the faster ones.

There is nothing inherently in the customer's favour about having access to slower trains at cheaper fares. It is an artifical construct (although it may be true that the local train is cheaper to provide).

That may well be, but in any situation where the railway needs to keep the revenue up and doesn't have the money to have 'continental' levels of asset utilisation, then segmentation is far more palatable than everyone paying the same higher fares.

Given the reality we are in, it is still better for travellers than a heavily-simplified system. Local travellers also benefit from this - would the Calder Valley have ever seen its current service level if the Leeds to Manchester traffic all went via Huddersfield?

 

[Dirty_Mac]

Single leg pricing is only really useful for longer distance trips

Surely not? Otherwise, why implement it for contactless?

 

[Watershed]

There is if you exceed maximum journey duration on an Oyster.

Exceeding the maximum journey time is not grounds for prosecution. A validated Oyster card remains valid until you touch out.

 

[daodao]

But you have to use it differently if you have a walk up than if you have an Advance. If you want to truly simplify, the UX needs to be the same for both, just showing the cost to change (which will often be £0). Think about it from the point of view of a true novice.

An experienced user of course knows they don't have to change online if they don't want to, but with regard to designing the 70 minute product LNER are absolutely right that most people want that reassurance (and to be simply told what it will cost if they want to step outside those parameters rather than "computer says no"). The product has flaws, but personally I'd see no issue with adding it to the range (rather than removing the Super Off Peak) and I think a fair number of people might actively choose it if priced right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==



Aldi/Lidl would argue that just having a reasonable price for one product is the right way. BOGOFs and the likes are very rare at those supermarkets, and in most cases though not quite all products are only sold in one size.

Not really true for Lidl, who have a variety of special offers and discounts (some personalised) for customers who have joined their Lidl Plus loyalty scheme.

However, retail shops are different from the purchase of rail tickets in that if one fails to comply with the terms and conditions of the special offer, one merely doesn't obtain the discount at the checkout. For rail tickets, failure to do so puts one at serious risk of criminal prosecution.

 

[yorksrob]

That may well be, but in any situation where the railway needs to keep the revenue up and doesn't have the money to have 'continental' levels of asset utilisation, then segmentation is far more palatable than everyone paying the same higher fares.

Given the reality we are in, it is still better for travellers than a heavily-simplified system. Local travellers also benefit from this - would the Calder Valley have ever seen its current service level if the Leeds to Manchester traffic all went via Huddersfield?

The morning peak provides segmentation enough, without adding an unnecessary layer of complication in the evening.

The calder valley would have needed to have moved beyond its one sprinter per hour on a Saturday afternoon anyway. It includes a lot of large urban settlements which justify at least a half hourly service in its own right.

That said, I'm not against people offering better deals if it makes commercial sense. Pointless evening peak restrictions offer nothing of benefit to anyone, just a hurdle for anyone planning a journey. They need to be got rid of.

 

[JonathanH]

Pointless evening peak restrictions offer nothing of benefit to anyone, just a hurdle for anyone planning a journey. They need to be got rid of.

Single leg pricing, seemingly coming to more areas, is unfortunately likely to mean an extension of evening peak restrictions, which will be highly complex.

 

[yorksrob]

Single leg pricing, seemingly coming to more areas, is unfortunately likely to mean an extension of evening peak restrictions.

Does TfL have an evening peak ? If not, I don't see why anywhere else has to.

 

[JonathanH]

Does TfL have an evening peak ? If not, I don't see why anywhere else has to.

Yes, a fundamental part of its PAYG model, although there is an easement for journeys which end inside Zone 1, due to concerns over its effect on the nighttime economy. Also doesn't apply to off-peak travelcards.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, a fundamental part of its PAYG model, although there is an easement for journeys which end inside Zone 1, due to concerns over its effect on the nighttime economy.

It's still a stupid idea. Isn't it the case that the evening peak has always been more diffused than the morning, so not as much need to manipulate prices.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Well, I have some sympathy for Thomas's point. But less so re Oyster/Contactless/TfL. When family used to visit from the US and had children in the 12 - 16 age range, it always took a several paragraph email to explain their options in terms of coming from Gatwick to a national rail station in Zone 2, and what happened if they wanted to go shopping Croydon en route and how they might get a Family and Friends Railcard! They often used their contactless, of course, because 'it felt easy' and sometimes were quids in but mostly missed the option of using orange cardboard fares.

But isn't the big issue here that Oyster in the London area was introduced on the basis that all the orange cardboard stuff would eventually be dropped. And Oyster Ts and Cs -- espeically on child fares, breaks of journeys harmonised with it. Of course, for political reasons this hasn't happened -- and a skeleton level of it would need to be retained for cross-boundary journeys. But surely now (as a thought experiment at least....!) there would be a case for at least levelling up/down the Oyster and BR fares levels... given the national financial situation....

 

[fandroid]

The travel example given in the article is in London, where PAYG is totally normalised. It's also within defined boundaries. That means that there's an overall expectation that fares charged will be reasonable. If a London traveller finds those charges to be too great for their personal finances, they'll soon give up rail and stick to buses.

I know that the PAYG boundaries are being expanded, but the writer sticks well within zones 1-6. That means he didn't run much risk to his funds.

We've covered, many times, ways in which the arbitrariness and complexity of rail ticketing could be reduced. One favourite would be banning fare offers online which cost more but offer nothing at all extra to the customer. Second would be to just have one Railcard, but simply charge a different initial fee for each category of customer, to have photo id for all cards, and to do away with all those varied time restrictions on them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does TfL have an evening peak ? If not, I don't see why anywhere else has to.

Yes, a fundamental part of its PAYG model

TfL don’t have an evening peak for their services. Peak is 0630 to 0900. The rest of the time it is off peak. The only exception is to/from Heathrow, where there is only the peak fare charged all day.

For many people the peak/off-peak is a moot point anyway as the cap in the zones is the same for peak as it is for off peak. All the peak fares mean is you hit the cap sooner.

Much of the complexity in TfL fares comes from the National Rail operators. It always has. Who can forget the utterly moronic Oyster Extension Permits?

TfL are by no means perfect, but compare how they deal with minor infractions such as forgetting to touch out to how the National Rail operators deal with such matters.

 

[island]

Exceeding the maximum journey time is not grounds for prosecution. A validated Oyster card remains valid until you touch out.

That is not correct. An Oyster card which was validated so long ago that it has exceeded the maximum journey time will not be a valid ticket and a person entering into a TfL compulsory ticket area with such a card (such as by alighting from a train into a station) will be liable to penalty fare or prosecution under TfL byelaw 17 (1).

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is not correct. An Oyster card which was validated so long ago that it has exceeded the maximum journey time will not be a valid ticket and a person entering into a TfL compulsory ticket area with such a card (such as by alighting from a train into a station) will be liable to penalty fare or prosecution under TfL byelaw 17 (1).

You wouldn't enter into a TfL compulsory ticket area with such a card because you would tap it on the way in to any such area, validating it. If that is the wording of the Byelaw it cannot ever be infringed unless one enters an ungated station without tapping a validator.

 

[JonathanH]

TfL don’t have an evening peak for their services. Peak is 0630 to 0900. The rest of the time it is off peak. The only exception is to/from Heathrow, where there is only the peak fare charged all day.

Single TfL fares from 1600 to 1900 which do not involve travel into Zone 1 are charged at the peak rate.

For many people the peak/off-peak is a moot point anyway as the cap in the zones is the same for peak as it is for off peak. All the peak fares mean is you hit the cap sooner.

For Zone 1 centric travel yes. The cap is a moot point for travel not including Zone 1.

 

[island]

You wouldn't enter into a TfL compulsory ticket area with such a card because you would tap it on the way in to any such area, validating it. If that is the wording of the Byelaw it cannot ever be infringed unless one enters an ungated station without tapping a validator.

No. Stepping off a train is entering into a CTA, and you don't tap your card when stepping off a train. So if the card has ceased to be valid whilst on the train, you have breached byelaw 17 in doing so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. Stepping off a train is entering into a CTA, and you don't tap your card when stepping off a train. So if the card has ceased to be valid whilst on the train, you have breached byelaw 17 in doing so.

A train is a CTA as well, is it not?

 

[island]

TfL don’t have an evening peak for their services. Peak is 0630 to 0900. The rest of the time it is off peak. The only exception is to/from Heathrow, where there is only the peak fare charged all day.

This isn't correct. Peak for Oyster/contactless is 0630-0930 and 1600-1900, save that a journey ending in zone 1 and starting outside zone 1 and not at Heathrow will be off-peak in the 1600-1900 period. However, off-peak day travelcards are valid within their zones from 0930 to end of service, with no interruption.

A train is a CTA as well, is it not?

It is. You would be exiting one CTA and immediately entering another.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is. You would be exiting one CTA and immediately entering another.

I think that is an extremely tenuous interpretation.

Has anyone ever been successfully prosecuted for this? I would be surprised.

 

[yorksrob]

[]

Single TfL fares from 1600 to 1900 which do not involve travel into Zone 1 are charged at the peak rate.


For Zone 1 centric travel yes. The cap is a moot point for travel not including Zone 1.

That sounds like a preposterously over complicated situation, just having peak fares for journeys not involving zone 1 ! What possible justification is there for that ?

 

[JonathanH]

That sounds like a preposterously over complicated situation, just having peak fares for journeys not involving zone 1 ! What possible justification is there for that ?

When the easement was introduced, it was intended to prevent damage to the central London economy, as the higher peak fares were seen as an impediment to people travelling into London for theatre and other activities.

The differential in peak / off-peak fares outside zone 1 was seen as less of an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds like a preposterously over complicated situation, just having peak fares for journeys not involving zone 1 ! What possible justification is there for that ?

I'd have thought that was pretty obvious - so commuters going home from London pay more but evening leisure travellers into London pay less. It's an absolutely obvious model to use and makes perfect sense - it segments the market near enough perfectly, and indeed is how the vast majority of evening peak restrictions work on the railway generally.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm currently planning for a works meeting in Cambridge travelling from Warrington in mid-December. Normally I'm not phased by booking train travel, I've done it enough to know more or less how to get the best deals. But this particular route is a real laugh, obviously there are various routes & operators ranging from 1 change to 4, and 3h 30m to over 5h, with prices anywhere from around £70 to £424 return (overnight), with various split tickets & conditions. Then some of the changes could involve getting one Euston bound Avanti, then jumping off at Crewe and waiting for another to get to Euston, another change involving getting to Stevenage with a 5 minute transfer after a TPE & LNER journey, and all sorts of other combinations. Add to this the fact this is just from the one booking site I'm allowed to use for work, I dare not even use any others for comparison.

Now granted this isn't exactly going to be an often used flow, but it does demonstrate how stupidly complex rail ticketing can get and why so many people think it is simply a rip-off. In all of this there has to be room for improvement, if I were presented with the myriad of options for my vits as I am the Cambridge trip, I'd just walk right back out again.

 

[redreni]

A key benefit of contactless is that that isn't true any more, though, provided you stay within the area. It's more like the shop - you carry out your intentions and are retrospectively charged based on what you did. It differs from the shop in that it can be harder to see up front what the prices are, though. In that sense it's more like ordering in a pub - most people don't ask how much individual beers are, you ask for what you want, they pour it and then you pay for it and go and drink it. Occasionally the landlord will warn you if you pick a particularly expensive option, but not always. But you can't, unlike on the railway, order a pint of Carling, go and drink a pint of Landlord and get prosecuted for it - of course it would be theft to do that for which you could be prosecuted, but because the landlord serves the drinks and not you yourself the situation can't arise by accident.

My go-to analogy for PAYG is it's like the original setup of the Amazon Fresh stores (scan in, take what you want, walk out and they bill you later), except there are no prices displayed on any of the shelf tickets. You can look up the prices online, but it's very fiddly - you have to type in the name of the item in full and spell it correctly, or the website won't find it (like the TfL single fare finder, which finds tube stations fairly easily but makes you type the name of train stations more or less in full before it finds them).

And, if you want to know about multibuy offers and meal deals, some of them are on a chart and others are listed on a massively long PDF document which is well hidden on the Amazon website (like TfL's daily caps inside and outside zones 1-9).

I just don't understand why PAYG is considered a reasonable way to operate and a model for longer, more expensive journeys. It only works because the fares are low enough that opinion-formers tend not to care about them.