Stadler preffered bidder for new Enterprise

[89-763-733]

But CAF going to court

Spanish train manufacturer CAF has mounted a legal challenge against both Irish Rail and Northern Ireland Railways over the awarding of a €650m contract for the supply of a new fleet for the Dublin to Belfast Enterprise train service.

Swiss manufacturer Stadler was set to be named as the winner in the procurement process but runner up Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF) is now seeking a judicial review at the High Court

Spanish firm in legal challenge over awarding of €650m fleet contract

Spanish train manufacturer CAF has mounted a legal challenge against both Irish Rail and Northern Ireland Railways over the awarding of a €650m contract for the supply of a new fleet for the Dublin to Belfast Enterprise train service.

m.independent.ie

 

[zwk500]

Of course the losing bidder is going to court. What a way to waste a vast amount of money on lawyers.

It seems to be the default reaction of losing a contract nowadays but has a legal action by a tendering manufacturer ever managed to result in a cancelled contract and re-bid, let alone a default re-award?

 

[stadler]

But CAF going to court

Spanish firm in legal challenge over awarding of €650m fleet contract

Spanish train manufacturer CAF has mounted a legal challenge against both Irish Rail and Northern Ireland Railways over the awarding of a €650m contract for the supply of a new fleet for the Dublin to Belfast Enterprise train service.

m.independent.ie

Of course the losing bidder is going to court. What a way to waste a vast amount of money on lawyers. It seems to be the default reaction of losing a contract nowadays but has a legal action by a tendering manufacturer ever managed to result in a cancelled contract and re-bid, let alone a default re-award?

It sometimes works.

Look at the mess in Latvia with contracts that kept getting cancelled due to appeals and legal action from other manufacturers. They initially awarded a contract for CAF Civity trains which Stadler then appealed and managed to get the contract cancelled.

Then they restarted the tender process for a second time and awarded a contract for Stadler Flirt trains which Hyundai Rotem then appealed and managed to get the contract cancelled.

Then they restarted the tender process for a third time and awarded a contract for Skoda trains who actually ended up building the trains. It got appealed the third time too by Talgo but the appeals were unsuccessful and the Skoda contract was kept.

Funnily the company that ended up winning was the only one that never appealed.

So it is possible that this could result in Irish Rail and Translink cancelling the order and restarting the process of procuring new trains again. But i suppose only if major issues are found with the contract award.

I agree though that it is getting rather ridiculous how the default seems to be to go to court and submit legal action any time you lose a contract. It happens so much these days for every kind of contract.

 

[Sorcerer]

First I'm hearing of this, but it does peak my curiosity. If Stadler are the preferred bidder and CAF's legal challenge proves to fruitless, could we see a FLIRT derivative or possibly a non-Swiss SMILE/Giruno design scaled down? I sort of lean towards the former since scaling it down and including a battery pack has already been done here in the UK whereas a new design would probably take a few extra years of work to figure out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First I'm hearing of this, but it does peak my curiosity. If Stadler are the preferred bidder and CAF's legal challenge proves to fruitless, could we see a FLIRT derivative or possibly a non-Swiss SMILE/Giruno design scaled down? I sort of lean towards the former since scaling it down and including a battery pack has already been done here in the UK whereas a new design would probably take a few extra years of work to figure out.

It's not a high speed route so the FLIRT platform would be fine.

 

[Sorcerer]

It's not a high speed route so the FLIRT platform would be fine.

After actually checking the maximum speed on the Enterprise route it would definitely seem a waste to use the SMILE platform, so a FLIRT 160 derivative seems like the obvious choice in this situation.

 

[dubscottie]

I wonder what the grounds for appeal are? Are they only going to court in Dublin or Belfast also?

 

[zwk500]

It's not a high speed route so the FLIRT platform would be fine.

After actually checking the maximum speed on the Enterprise route it would definitely seem a waste to use the SMILE platform, so a FLIRT 160 derivative seems like the obvious choice in this situation.

That's only today's capability. Both networks in Ireland have big plans and the enterprise is a flagship service.
The All-Islamd Strategic Rail Review and Irish Rail's own strategy papers have published recommendations for 125mph and 25KV AC electrification on at least parts of the route.
I would expect a Tri-Mode (Diesel/Battery/Electrification) Dual-Voltage (1.5kV DC/25KV AC) was part of the tender and therefore a SMILE would likely be required instead of a FLIRT.

 

[43096]

That's only today's capability. Both networks in Ireland have big plans and the enterprise is a flagship service.
The All-Islamd Strategic Rail Review and Irish Rail's own strategy papers have published recommendations for 125mph and 25KV AC electrification on at least parts of the route.
I would expect a Tri-Mode (Diesel/Battery/Electrification) Dual-Voltage (1.5kV DC/25KV AC) was part of the tender and therefore a SMILE would likely be required instead of a FLIRT.

A SMILE would be overkill (and costly) for a 125mph operation. FLIRTs capable of that speed exist as do multi-system versions.

 

[zwk500]

A SMILE would be overkill (and costly) for a 125mph operation. FLIRTs capable of that speed exist as do multi-system versions.

I didn't realise a 200kph FLIRT existed, so then a FLIRT might well be offered. 125mph capability is the requirement, Stadler will have made the decision which fleet to offer.

 

[hexagon789]

I didn't realise a 200kph FLIRT existed, so then a FLIRT might well be offered. 125mph capability is the requirement, Stadler will have made the decision which fleet to offer.

Norway has 200km/h FLIRTs, the main difference vs equivalent 160km/h sets is that they have an additional powered bogie, so have 50% more power.

 

[JonasB]

There are 200 km/h Flirts in Sweden as well, so it is very much a standard product. Although the Norwegian dual mode Flirts can only reach 200 km/h in electric mode, using diesel they are limited to 160 km/h. But i really can't see that being a problem for the Enterprise trains.

 

[craigybagel]

I think the expectation from the start was that Stadler would win; they specialise in bespoke modifications, and there's so many challenges with this order (Irish gauge, the need to run both on diesel and DC, and possibly AC in the future). Hopefully the legal issues can be resolved fairly quickly - the new fleet is desperately needed

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are 200 km/h Flirts in Sweden as well, so it is very much a standard product. Although the Norwegian dual mode Flirts can only reach 200 km/h in electric mode, using diesel they are limited to 160 km/h. But i really can't see that being a problem for the Enterprise trains.

The FLIRT 200 is definitely a standard product, yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2025 ==

I think the expectation from the start was that Stadler would win; they specialise in bespoke modifications, and there's so many challenges with this order (Irish gauge, the need to run both on diesel and DC, and possibly AC in the future). Hopefully the legal issues can be resolved fairly quickly - the new fleet is desperately needed

I hope they put as much attention into the interior. The De Dietrich coaches have very nice interiors similar to the original interior of the Eurostar TMSTs on which they are based. While the FLIRT interior used by the likes of Greater Anglia is OKish, it's nothing special, so it would be great to see what Stadler could deliver if they really tried hard.

 

[89-763-733]

I wonder what the grounds for appeal are? Are they only going to court in Dublin or Belfast also?

The case is listed for hearing in Dublin on 12 November. Subject to correction translink have to be registered as a company in the Irish Republic to comply with EU law so a UK hearing is probably unnecessary

 

[zwk500]

It should be noted that the FLIRT is marketed as a regional train, but both railways see the Enterprise as one of their flagship products (for IÉ it is close to the Dublin Heuston - Cork services for that banner, for NIR the Enterprise is absolutely the premium offer).
If bidding for a service between two capital cities (for a 2hr journey no less), would you as a bidder suggest that these are mere regional cities (with an eye on politics)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It should be noted that the FLIRT is marketed as a regional train, but both railways see the Enterprise as one of their flagship products (for IÉ it is close to the Dublin Heuston - Cork services for that banner, for NIR the Enterprise is absolutely the premium offer).
If bidding for a service between two capital cities (for a 2hr journey no less), that these are mere regional cities from a political standpoint?

The FLIRT was developed as a replacement for the GTW (Gelenktriebwagen = articulated multiple unit, before they came up with the silly names) which is little more than a slightly fancy Pacer. But it's developed a long way from there and is now very much an InterCity train as well. The Polish high floor ones are particularly nice.

So it's all down to what interior they specify.

 

[Amalie]

It should be noted that the FLIRT is marketed as a regional train, but both railways see the Enterprise as one of their flagship products (for IÉ it is close to the Dublin Heuston - Cork services for that banner, for NIR the Enterprise is absolutely the premium offer).
If bidding for a service between two capital cities (for a 2hr journey no less), would you as a bidder suggest that these are mere regional cities (with an eye on politics)?

There are some intercity FLIRTS too. Besides, Stadler is happy to make the interior as luxurious and plush or as tight and uncomfortable as the client wants. For a more odd example, see the business class on the Leo Express FLIRT.

 

[Sorcerer]

Given that the Irish loading gauge isn't too unlike Britain's, I can see any FLIRT units simply being off-the-shelf designs from here. Aside from the slower maximum speed the 756 pretty much fits the bill for a tri-mode unit, and the 745 can easily offer almost double the current capacity, and Stadler also have the capability to deliver 200km/h capable units. Just need to get all three qualities together. That said I wouldn't expect them to run this fast when not under the wires because that would probably need extra powerpacks which eats up potential capacity and increases costs. Long term it would simply be better to electrify the route.

It should be noted that the FLIRT is marketed as a regional train, but both railways see the Enterprise as one of their flagship products (for IÉ it is close to the Dublin Heuston - Cork services for that banner, for NIR the Enterprise is absolutely the premium offer).
If bidding for a service between two capital cities (for a 2hr journey no less), would you as a bidder suggest that these are mere regional cities (with an eye on politics)?

Although it's marketed as a regional train (it's where the RT part comes from after all) intercity variants now also exist, and even the aforementioned SMILE is partly derived from the FLIRT platform.

 

[35B]

I wonder what the grounds for appeal are? Are they only going to court in Dublin or Belfast also?

We need to await the hearing, but I'd expect that they'll be arguing some form of procedural irregularity that makes the procurement void. OJEU rules mean that the criteria for assessment are transparent, and the feedback is provided to the bidders.

 

[ac6000cw]

Aside from the slower maximum speed the 231 pretty much fits the bill for a tri-mode unit

It's the 756 that's tri-mode, the 231 is diesel-only.

 

[zwk500]

Long term it would simply be better to electrify the route.

This is indeed the plan. See IÉ's strategy plan https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/company-information/iarnrod-eireann-strategy and https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/all-island-strategic-rail-review-iarnrod-eireann-u
which includes this image:

Showing intended 1.5KV DC electrification in Red, and 25KV AC in Green.

The AISRR is also relevant here: https://www.infrastructure-ni.gov.uk/publications/all-island-strategic-rail-review or https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of...ation-for-strategic-environmental-assessment/

 

[craigybagel]

I hope they put as much attention into the interior. The De Dietrich coaches have very nice interiors similar to the original interior of the Eurostar TMSTs on which they are based. While the FLIRT interior used by the likes of Greater Anglia is OKish, it's nothing special, so it would be great to see what Stadler could deliver if they really tried hard.

Indeed. For political and prestige reasons I think the internal spec is likely to be quite high, hopefully they can deliver! It needs to be a good quality product to compete against the M1/A1

Given that the Irish loading gauge isn't too unlike Britain's, I can see any FLIRT units simply being off-the-shelf designs from here. Aside from the slower maximum speed the 231 pretty much fits the bill for a tri-mode unit, and the 745 can easily offer almost double the current capacity, and Stadler also have the capability to deliver 200km/h capable units. Just need to get all three qualities together. That said I wouldn't expect them to run this fast when not under the wires because that would probably need extra powerpacks which eats up potential capacity and increases costs. Long term it would simply be better to electrify the route.

It's likely they won't be able to get much speed increases without electrification - not because of any failure with the design of the train, but because of the need to speed up the suburban services on the line. There's no point going above the currently 90mph if you're only going to catch up with the suburban train in front.

 

[zwk500]

It's likely they won't be able to get much speed increases without electrification - not because of any failure with the design of the train, but because of the need to speed up the suburban services on the line. There's no point going above the currently 90mph if you're only going to catch up with the suburban train in front.

This is a key point - especially as Enterprise is squeezed between two separate sets of commuter services, one at either end.

 

[Sorcerer]

It's the 756 that's tri-mode, the 231 is diesel-only.

My mistake, thank you for pointing that out. Duly corrected.

This is indeed the plan. See IÉ's strategy plan https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/company-information/iarnrod-eireann-strategy and https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/all-island-strategic-rail-review-iarnrod-eireann-u
which includes this image:

Showing intended 1.5KV DC electrification in Red, and 25KV AC in Green.

The AISRR is also relevant here: https://www.infrastructure-ni.gov.uk/publications/all-island-strategic-rail-review or https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of...ation-for-strategic-environmental-assessment/

I wish we were as keen on electrification as the Irish were. Unfortunately I get the impression that transport is seen as something of a zero-sum investment here.

It's likely they won't be able to get much speed increases without electrification - not because of any failure with the design of the train, but because of the need to speed up the suburban services on the line. There's no point going above the currently 90mph if you're only going to catch up with the suburban train in front.

Looks like something of a long-term goal given the planned eventual electrification of the route.

 

[Cowley]

There’s a new thread below to discuss the speculation side of things:

Official plans and your ideas for improving the railways in Ireland?

It's likely they won't be able to get much speed increases without electrification - not because of any failure with the design of the train, but because of the need to speed up the suburban services on the line. There's no point going above the currently 90mph if you're only going to catch up...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JonasB]

Although it's marketed as a regional train (it's where the RT part comes from after all) intercity variants now also exist, and even the aforementioned SMILE is partly derived from the FLIRT platform.

And to be fair, the difference between a regional train and an intercity train has more to do with the interior and number of doors.

 

[Sorcerer]

And to be fair, the difference between a regional train and an intercity train has more to do with the interior and number of doors.

Speed can also be a factor, but that only really shows itself when the speed gap increases. In the case of the Enterprise it's currently maxed out at 90mph, so there isn't much of a technical difference. Even with provisions of 125mph running capability the difference between regional and intercity isn't huge, so Stadler providing a FLIRT 200 model is arguably the best option. The SMILE is probably an overkill as someone else mentioned earlier upthread.

 

[duesselmartin]

Surprised Hyundai Rotem is not a front runner with their success in the Irish market.

 

[Amalie]

Speed can also be a factor, but that only really shows itself when the speed gap increases. In the case of the Enterprise it's currently maxed out at 90mph, so there isn't much of a technical difference. Even with provisions of 125mph running capability the difference between regional and intercity isn't huge, so Stadler providing a FLIRT 200 model is arguably the best option. The SMILE is probably an overkill as someone else mentioned earlier upthread.

I used to dislike the Flirts in terms of design, but the ones with those new fronts, which include those British ones, are not bad at all. Just give it a nicer paint job, add a lovely interior, and it’ll be all grand.