Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
We've heard of LNER staff saying that before, which is an entirely baffling suggestion. That should very much not happen unless LNER has been doing bad things with their train configurations.
I believe it can happen when a train has been retimed, but it's usually because someone has changed their seat (or train) but then used the original ticket and/or reservation. Unfortunately, staff come up with all sorts of alternative theories rather than investigating and finding out the truth of the matter.
Seat reservations are not valid unless displayed, whatever any operator may say. I would not move if there was nothing on the seat indicating it was reserved.
Seat reservations are not valid unless displayed, whatever any operator may say. I would not move if there was nothing on the seat indicating it was reserved.
It's not a question of someone's attitude - it's whether what the TOC is doing actually complies with the wording of the byelaw.
If there is nothing at all, the seat is not reserved. Those 'maybe reserved later' ones may turn into an actual reservation at some random point. This practice of allowing seats to be booked from under the arses of people sitting there is a crap idea, but TOCs seem to like it and it appears to be compliant with the wording of the byelaw. Worth noting that the byelaw was written before last-minute bookings ever became a thing so won't have envisaged last-minute reservations en route.
I wonder whether there could be potential for a court case if a dispute escalated from a situation where nothing was displayed when the passenger sat in the seat, and a resevation popped up later without warning. Possibly - it could be argued that the byelaw was written on the assumption that reservations would be displayed from point of departure, and if no reservation was shown (or warning that one might appear later), the passenger was acting reasonably in assuming that it was going to remain available, and it was therefore not reasonable to kick them out.
It's not a question of someone's attitude - it's whether what the TOC is doing actually complies with the wording of the byelaw.
If there is nothing at all, the seat is not reserved. Those 'maybe reserved later' ones may turn into an actual reservation at some random point. This practice of allowing seats to be booked from under the arses of people sitting there is a crap idea, but TOCs seem to like it and it appears to be compliant with the wording of the byelaw. Worth noting that the byelaw was written before last-minute bookings ever became a thing so won't have envisaged last-minute reservations en route.
I wonder whether there could be potential for a court case if a dispute escalated from a situation where nothing was displayed when the passenger sat in the seat, and a resevation popped up later without warning. Possibly - it could be argued that the byelaw was written on the assumption that reservations would be displayed from point of departure, and if no reservation was shown (or warning that one might appear later), the passenger was acting reasonably in assuming that it was going to remain available, and it was therefore not reasonable to kick them out.
I would say that by far the most likely court case arising from all this would be an assault charge due to the regular conflicts certain TOCs are creating between passengers with this stupid nonsense.
Thanks, I was just interested as I recently changed my reservation on a LNER service from an automatically allocated backwards facing seat to a forward facing seat with the "maybe allocated later" shown. My electronic ticket updated to show the new reservation but the seat display didn't update. Thus I am thinking that some of these seats may be definitely reserved even if showing maybe.
Presumably if it was already reserved the system would have prevented me reserving it.
I would say that by far the most likely court case arising from all this would be an assault charge due to the regular conflicts certain TOCs are creating between passengers with this stupid nonsense.
That may be so of Avanti who regularly change Available to Reserved, but if one sits in a seat marked "maybe reserved later" and refuses to move then they are the ones who are the problem. The policy may not be a good one and they may disagree with it, but it is clearly marked and thus anyone not respecting it is being unreasonable.
If the cameras and software intended to communicate back seat occupancy on Pendolinos can't be made to work, they could at least modify the software so it works the same as LNER's, with only the seats which cannot be reserved at all showing Available. It's not ideal but it's better than creating conflict.
I would say that by far the most likely court case arising from all this would be an assault charge due to the regular conflicts certain TOCs are creating between passengers with this stupid nonsense.
That may be so of Avanti who regularly change Available to Reserved, but if one sits in a seat marked "maybe reserved later" and refuses to move then they are the ones who are the problem. The policy may not be a good one and they may disagree with it, but it is clearly marked and thus anyone not respecting it is being unreasonable.
I was offering no opinion on who would be right or wrong in such a situation, notwithstanding that obviously assaulting someone over seat reservations is wrong.
We can't help who we have to share the planet (or a train) with and I have seen seat ownership issues get verbally aggressive on multiple occasions, my issue here is with the the TOCs and their leadership actively creating these conflicts.
The policy of promoting the reserving of seats from under people already sitting in them is patently wrong, pretending it is reasonable by marking the entirety of 1st class and the majority of Standard as "may be reserved" is just ridiculous.
Quote; sadly the aim of companies such as LNER appears to be to maximise revenue, switch to airline style pricing/operation and not to increase modal share, give good passenger satisfaction and certainly not to facilitate walk up passengers.
I believe it can happen when a train has been retimed, but it's usually because someone has changed their seat (or train) but then used the original ticket and/or reservation. Unfortunately, staff come up with all sorts of alternative theories rather than investigating and finding out the truth of the matter.
I booked a train that was subsequently given a new retail service ID and my reservation became invalid. However I noticed before the day of travel and reserved the same seat again, so avoided any issues on the day. But most people wouldn't do that.
Seat reservations are not valid unless displayed, whatever any operator may say. I would not move if there was nothing on the seat indicating it was reserved.
Thanks, I was just interested as I recently changed my reservation on a LNER service from an automatically allocated backwards facing seat to a forward facing seat with the "maybe allocated later" shown. My electronic ticket updated to show the new reservation but the seat display didn't update. Thus I am thinking that some of these seats may be definitely reserved even if showing maybe.
Presumably if it was already reserved the system would have prevented me reserving it.
I was offering no opinion on who would be right or wrong in such a situation, notwithstanding that obviously assaulting someone over seat reservations is wrong.
Some people who hold reservations get verbally aggressive with people sat in seats shown as available. I always defend the seated passenger if I hear of this. If I get abuse from the person with the reservation, then I can handle that and if they start swearing I can insist they are removed from the train for a byelaw offence. Usually they reluctantly back down.
We can't help who we have to share the planet (or a train) with and I have seen seat ownership issues get verbally aggressive on multiple occasions, my issue here is with the the TOCs and their leadership actively creating these conflicts.
The policy of promoting the reserving of seats from under people already sitting in them is patently wrong, pretending it is reasonable by marking the entirety of 1st class and the majority of Standard as "may be reserved" is just ridiculous.
Agreed. Except I would accept 'may be reserved later' if used sparingly.
Sadly LNER seems to not want any walk up custom at all, so are very keen to promote the reservation compulsory stance and therefore have switched from having a sensible policy in the past to a new policy of attempting to enforce invisible reservations and encouraging passengers to get into disputes amongst themselves.
It really is disgraceful but LNER management are hardly the type to listen to customer feedback, so probably no point even trying.
"This seat may be reserved later" is as self-explanatory as it comes, and anyone with a smartphone (so, just about all of us) can reserve themselves a seat. I don't have an issue with that aspect of it at all.
It's no different to sitting in a seat which is marked as being available now but reserved from a later station; you might get lucky and the reservation holder might not show up, but if they do then you move.
If the reservation system doesn't work at all then clearly reservations cannot be enforced. EC/LNER staff always used to say "try and sit in your reserved seat if you can", emphasis on "if you can". Clearly if everyone who gets on at Kings Cross tries to sit in their reserved seat then you will minimise conflict. When it happens I usually try to sit in my reserved seat anyway (assuming someone hasn't beaten me to it) because I know it means nobody will come and argue with me later.
"This seat may be reserved later" is as self-explanatory as it comes, and anyone with a smartphone (so, just about all of us) can reserve themselves a seat. I don't have an issue with that aspect of it at all.
It's no different to sitting in a seat which is marked as being available now but reserved from a later station; you might get lucky and the reservation holder might not show up, but if they do then you move.
If the reservation system doesn't work at all then clearly reservations cannot be enforced. EC/LNER staff always used to say "try and sit in your reserved seat if you can", emphasis on "if you can". Clearly if everyone who gets on at Kings Cross tries to sit in their reserved seat then you will minimise conflict. When it happens I usually try to sit in my reserved seat anyway (assuming someone hasn't beaten me to it) because I know it means nobody will come and argue with me later.
I can cope with either policy. What I think is needed is a clear notice in each coach (potentially even a sticker by each display) stating what that policy is. Then, other than by people who will argue over anything, there can be no debate.
I'd like to see the same regarding a default position for the blinds in case of a dispute, as older French buses used to have regarding whether the window was open or not.
Avanti *almost* got there on their 80x where it says something like "Sorry, reservations are not available at present" if they didn't load, but that is annoyingly vague in its meaning. "Sorry, reservations do not apply, take any seat" or "Please take your reserved seat" (except in the unreserved coach where it should always say "Available") would be better.
I can cope with either policy. What I think is needed is a clear notice in each coach (potentially even a sticker by each display) stating what that policy is. Then, other than by people who will argue over anything, there can be no debate.
Where reservations have failed (either the electronic displays aren't working or the printer has broken) I don't think they should be enforced. You have no way of knowing if the seat you're taking is reserved or not. It seems unfair to make someone move from a seat for which they had no way of knowing if it was taken or not.
I've been on the wrong end of this once with Avanti, where reservations had failed so I took a seat because my seat was already occupied and the person in it refused to move. The person who approached the seat I decided to sit in was elderly and clearly frail and asked me to move so I did as I'm not a complete whatever. But this meant I was left with no seat and had to sit on the floor in a vestibule from Euston to Wigan. Not a mistake I would make again.
The "this seat may be reserved later" thing is different. The person choosing to sit there does so in the full knowledge that, well, the seat may be reserved later. That's literally what the sign says. They choose to take a calculated gamble that it won't be reserved later or that the reservation holder won't turn up. But they can't complain if they're on the wrong side of the gamble.
The "this seat may be reserved later" thing is different. The person choosing to sit there does so in the full knowledge that, well, the seat may be reserved later. That's literally what the sign says. They choose to take a calculated gamble that it won't be reserved later or that the reservation holder won't turn up. But they can't complain if they're on the wrong side of the gamble.
The policy of promoting the reserving of seats from under people already sitting in them is patently wrong, pretending it is reasonable by marking the entirety of 1st class and the majority of Standard as "may be reserved" is just ridiculous.
If there were a small amount of reservable seats offered this way then it would still be stupid but those without reservations would have an alternative, that is not what LNER do though, you get a sea of orange lights, even in empty carriages.
If there were a small amount of reservable seats offered this way then it would still be stupid but those without reservations would have an alternative, that is not what LNER do though, you get a sea of orange lights, even in empty carriages.
My point still stands, you take a calculated gamble sitting in those seats and you can't complain if you end up with a losing bet. So whilst I noted what you said, I disagree with your opinion.
Whether there should be more completely unreservable seats is a different matter entirely. There probably should be.
My point still stands, you take a calculated gamble sitting in those seats and you can't complain if you end up with a losing bet. So whilst I noted what you said, I disagree with your opinion.
Whether there should be more completely unreservable seats is a different matter entirely. There probably should be.
This isn't a casino, there is no bet, nothing to win, stop talking in ridiculous language about as basic concept as boarding a train, taking an empty seat and expecting not to be harassed.
Sort of depends on the TOC. If you look at LNER loadings on the day the vast majority of passengers are purchasing in advance even on the non-trial routes. Having a load of unreserved seats that end up empty just makes little sense. On Avanti for example the unreserved coaches are noticeably quiet these days aside from between MKC and Euston.
Where reservations have failed (either the electronic displays aren't working or the printer has broken) I don't think they should be enforced. You have no way of knowing if the seat you're taking is reserved or not. It seems unfair to make someone move from a seat for which they had no way of knowing if it was taken or not.
If the reservation system doesn't work at all then clearly reservations cannot be enforced. EC/LNER staff always used to say "try and sit in your reserved seat if you can", emphasis on "if you can". Clearly if everyone who gets on at Kings Cross tries to sit in their reserved seat then you will minimise conflict. When it happens I usually try to sit in my reserved seat anyway (assuming someone hasn't beaten me to it) because I know it means nobody will come and argue with me later.
Disappointingly, this seems to have changed on LNER, now that LNER appear to be trying to become as much like an airline as they can get away with.
It leads to inconsistency for passengers; less arrogant and more sensible TOCs, such as TPE, do not attempt to create customer conflicts by claiming that invisible reservations still stand.
Sadly, there is no organisation, individual or group who can get TOCs to have a consistent approach; TOCs such as LNER are given carte blanche to implement whatever policies they like to try their absolute best to deter walk-up travel.
Seat reservations are not valid unless displayed, whatever any operator may say. I would not move if there was nothing on the seat indicating it was reserved.
Sort of depends on the TOC. If you look at LNER loadings on the day the vast majority of passengers are purchasing in advance even on the non-trial routes. Having a load of unreserved seats that end up empty just makes little sense. On Avanti for example the unreserved coaches are noticeably quiet these days aside from between MKC and Euston.
Do Avanti on-board staff actually reprimand Advance ticket holders if they sit in the unreserved seats (i.e. for not sitting where their reservation states they 'should') ?
Do Avanti on-board staff actually reprimand Advance ticket holders if they sit in the unreserved seats (i.e. for not sitting where their reservation states they 'should') ?
No. It was only ever really ECML guards who cared about that (and indeed it was I believe GNER who insisted on "only valid in specified seat" going into the Advance T&Cs; other TOCs don't really seem to care).
No. It was only ever really ECML guards who cared about that (and indeed it was I believe GNER who insisted on "only valid in specified seat" going into the Advance T&Cs; other TOCs don't really seem to care).
This isn't a casino, there is no bet, nothing to win, stop talking in ridiculous language about as basic concept as boarding a train, taking an empty seat and expecting not to be harassed.
“This seat may be reserved later” is no different to “this seat is available now but will be reserved from X to Y”. You know the score when you sit down in it and I have zero sympathy with anyone who subsequently has to move. Don’t want to take the risk of moving? Don’t sit there.
It wasn’t mine either, although on very busy trains the guards did seem to emphasise the request to take your booked seat they didn’t reprimand people who didn’t.
I don't travel on LNER much (the only time I have was a relatively quiet Highland Chieftain Inverness -> Stirling)
But if I sat in a seat with "may be reserved later" and can be reserved for free the absolute first thing I am doing is reserving the seat.
You might as well indeed do that using the LNER app. You can also see if it is reserved for any of your journey too by seeing if it's available to select!
An interesting issue happened on a GWR IET from Paddington the other night. On departure from Paddington the seat reservation displays were not working so passengers were told to "sit where they want". Somewhere between Paddington and Reading they switched on resulting in arguments from passengers with reservations from Reading who joined there.
Actually it's strange. I was travelling from Bradford Forster Square. It updated to reserved about Shipley to correctly show reserved until Kings cross. However in Leeds where they changed ends it reverted to maybe allocated later and stayed that way until Kings cross. I was not worried as I had the electronic confirmation and I had possession of the seat.
If there were no reservations showing, then they don't apply (as stated by the byelaw) and you would be in the wrong - doesn't matter how long in advance you booked it.
If this occurs your argument is with the TOC, not whoever happens to be sitting in the seat.
“This seat may be reserved later” is no different to “this seat is available now but will be reserved from X to Y”. You know the score when you sit down in it and I have zero sympathy with anyone who subsequently has to move. Don’t want to take the risk of moving? Don’t sit there.
There is a very minor difference, which is that the label usually won't change to saying "Reserved" and the light, if present, to red, if someone does reserve it after the reservations are first loaded. A seat which says "may be reserved later" on most operators stays saying that throughout. CrossCountry applied plain old stickers which said this to their class 170s. They've now withdrawn the reservations entirely.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
If you go around doing that on the regular, you'll end up being invited to leave the train and refused travel. The vast majority of people would simply find another seat.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
