ScotRail Suburban Fleet (EMU and BEMU) Market Engagement

[berneyarms]

Can now confirm that over twenty different companies expressed an interest, including at least one company offering to explore a battery retrofit of an existing UK EMU. I am assuming those would be the 350/2s, simply by process of elimination. The expected number of expressions of interest was between five and ten, so having more than double the number of companies interested is obviously slowing things down.

Current conversations have centred around storage and maintenance space, and which features will be included. As I understand, concerns were raised over through gangways between units and the unit's acceleration/braking profiles, as well as the potential issues with a low floor design fitting inside GB loading gauge for BEMU stock.

In addition, the current problems emerging with Alstom's new fleet for the Dublin LUAS, some of which may be subject to legal proceedings, and in particular the battery performance and longevity have given food for thought. It appears that the battery supplier for their BEMUs has been unable to provide a product that meets the specifications, and current concerns over said battery supplier potentially being involved in this tender have led to a pause while more information is gathered about the issue, and how it can be avoided.

A small correction.

Alstom are building trains for Dublin’s DART network, not LUAS trams.

 

[RUK]

Anyone want to guess 20+ companies

I would assume : Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens, Stadler, Talgo

Probably add in some of the Eastern European companies that have step-changed in recent years : Škoda (Czech), Newag (Poland), etc

Almost certainly some Asian manufacturers: Hyundai-Rotem (South Korea), CRRC (China), Mitsui (Japan), perhaps others Kawasaki, Tokyo Car etc

Maybe some from Turkey, Canada, South Africa, Australia or South America etc. (sorry I don't have a clue who builds modern EMUs and BEMUs in these countries)

There are many different rolling stock manufacturers from China. I guess due to the refitting Class 350/2s with batteries proposal, it wouldn’t just be manufacturers of new trains, but also ROSCOs with existing fleets and rolling stock engineering/refurbishment companies and battery companies, etc., too. Who are there? Wabtec? Brodie?

 

[hwl]

There are many different rolling stock manufacturers from China.

They all now sell abroad under the CRRC banner.

I guess due to the refitting Class 350/2s with batteries proposal, it wouldn’t just be manufacturers of new trains, but also ROSCOs with existing fleets and rolling stock engineering/refurbishment companies and battery companies, etc., too. Who are there? Wabtec? Brodie?

I'd expect all the ROSCOs to be in the ~20 list too.

 

[Trainbike46]

They all now sell abroad under the CRRC banner.

I'd expect all the ROSCOs to be in the ~20 list too.

But not all ROSCOs have spare EMUs standing around, in fact, most don't. So what would they be offering?

I guess they could be on a joint thing with a manufacturer, but that should (I think) be viewed as a response from the manufacturer with a finance proposal by the relevant ROSCO.

 

[Class83]

Can now confirm that over twenty different companies expressed an interest, including at least one company offering to explore a battery retrofit of an existing UK EMU. I am assuming those would be the 350/2s, simply by process of elimination. The expected number of expressions of interest was between five and ten, so having more than double the number of companies interested is obviously slowing things down.

Current conversations have centred around storage and maintenance space, and which features will be included. As I understand, concerns were raised over through gangways between units and the unit's acceleration/braking profiles, as well as the potential issues with a low floor design fitting inside GB loading gauge for BEMU stock.

In addition, the current problems emerging with Alstom's new fleet for the Dublin LUAS, some of which may be subject to legal proceedings, and in particular the battery performance and longevity have given food for thought. It appears that the battery supplier for their BEMUs has been unable to provide a product that meets the specifications, and current concerns over said battery supplier potentially being involved in this tender have led to a pause while more information is gathered about the issue, and how it can be avoided.

350s have a potentially significant problem for Scotrail, a lot of suburban platforms have been extended to accommodate 6*23m vehicles, essentially a double Class 170, so the platforms are often 140-150m long (147m seems to have been the target) which is ideal for 138m trains. Class 350s are 4*20m, so 80/160m, either you're putting up with very short trains at rush hour, or need SDO? On the Fife Circle, only Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Dunfermline City and Leven could accommodate them.

 

[John R]

350s have a potentially significant problem for Scotrail, a lot of suburban platforms have been extended to accommodate 6*23m vehicles, essentially a double Class 170, so the platforms are often 140-150m long (147m seems to have been the target) which is ideal for 138m trains. Class 350s are 4*20m, so 80/160m, either you're putting up with very short trains at rush hour, or need SDO? On the Fife Circle, only Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Dunfermline City and Leven could accommodate them.

Not to mention they are not level boarding, which I think was stated to be a prerequisite?

 

[Snow1964]

Not to mention they are not level boarding, which I think was stated to be a prerequisite?

It is a prerequisite for new trains, but not 100% clear if it would be required on used 350s working alongside existing Scotrail EMUs (classes 334, 380, 385 without level boarding).

It would probably be another 25+ years by the time level boarding is across the fleet, and 350s likely to have gone by then anyway (if 350 were to happen)

 

[waverley47]

I would like to clarify, just in case people are confused, ScotRail are categorically NOT accepting or investigating the possibility of using the 350s.

A leasing company offered ScotRail in the market engagement, the possibility of using existing surplus British EMUs, with battery packs and a refurbishment, as an alternative to new units. Process of elimination leads me to conclude that the company was most likely Porterbrook, and the units in questions were the 350/2s, however ScotRail took one look at that proposal and told them no, and so it's not happening regardless.

 

[Cowley]

Evening all.

Anything regarding problems with battery equipped stock in other countries can be discussed here now:

Technical issues with battery equipped passenger rolling stock manufactured by Alstom.

In addition, the current problems emerging with Alstom's new fleet for the Dublin LUAS, some of which may be subject to legal proceedings, and in particular the battery performance and longevity have given food for thought. It appears that the battery supplier for their BEMUs has been unable to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[vuzzeho]

Anyone want to guess 20+ companies

I would assume : Alstom, CAF, Hitachi, Siemens, Stadler, Talgo

Probably add in some of the Eastern European companies that have step-changed in recent years : Škoda (Czech), Newag (Poland), etc

Almost certainly some Asian manufacturers: Hyundai-Rotem (South Korea), CRRC (China), Mitsui (Japan), perhaps others Kawasaki, Tokyo Car etc

Maybe some from Turkey, Canada, South Africa, Australia or South America etc. (sorry I don't have a clue who builds modern EMUs and BEMUs in these countries)

What's with all the interest all of a sudden? Why did ScotRail get this much interest from around the world (presumably)?

 

[InOban]

Presumably the same companies will be interested in the Future Fleet for Northern. Hence a larger number of similar trains are up for grabs.

 

[waverley47]

Presumably the same companies will be interested in the Future Fleet for Northern. Hence a larger number of similar trains are up for grabs.

Also it wasn't an invitation to tender, it was only a market engagement. It's basically free for companies to send a document outlining what they could offer, and so more companies will send in an email. In comparison, a proper tender will be very expensive and there will not be anywhere near as many companies involved.

 

[Snow1964]

What's with all the interest all of a sudden? Why did ScotRail get this much interest from around the world (presumably)?

It's cheap to reply to expressions of interest, not much more than an email with some recent examples or saying what you can do, and asking to be sent the tender when issued.

Then there is potentially similar orders from Northern, GWR, SouthEastern. Add them together potentially over 1000 vehicles.

Replying to 4 tenders would be expensive and time consuming but the market isn't stupid (the bidding teams will have come across the other companies bid teams when supplying in other countries, and know lots about each other). Only one tender reply really needs to be done from scratch if you have a modular train, as any of the others could be submitted using the same basic info, tweaked to fit the tender questions.

 

[Snow1964]

Can now confirm that over twenty different companies expressed an interest, including at least one company offering to explore a battery retrofit of an existing UK EMU. I am assuming those would be the 350/2s, simply by process of elimination. The expected number of expressions of interest was between five and ten, so having more than double the number of companies interested is obviously slowing things down.

I wonder how this is going.
The original target date was 29th September, so now had an additional 5 weeks.

I am guessing if expecting between 5 and 10 expressions of interest then will have created a multi-column summary sheet to summarise and weight/rank the answers. I would have thought if already got a method of evaluating 10 replies, adding a few additional respondent columns into the spreadsheet should be relatively easy and quick.

Maybe they have received some ideas which they hadn't previously expected and have been mulling how to value their desirability, and if they should factor them in to their tender.

 

[AMD]

The procurement notice has just been published - https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV542816
Closing date is 19th January with an estimated date of invitations to tender of 17th July 2026

 

[tfw756rider]

The procurement notice has just been published - https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV542816

Thanks for sharing the link.

 

[TrainViation]

The procurement notice has just been published - https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV542816
Closing date is 19th January with an estimated date of invitations to tender of 17th July 2026

Am I being stupid in thinking that this tells us who is buying? I might be being confused with another tender.

I thought we already had an invitation to tender, the one which people were talking about fitting batteries to a 350.

 

[Trainbike46]

Am I being stupid in thinking that this tells us who is buying? I might be being confused with another tender.

I thought we already had an invitation to tender, the one which people were talking about fitting batteries to a 350.

I think you're thinking of the "Market engagement", which was the previous step in the process, where apparently battery-fitted 350s were suggested

 

[TrainViation]

I think you're thinking of the "Market engagement", which was the previous step in the process, where apparently battery-fitted 350s were suggested

Ah yes, it was that I was thinking about. Hopefully this tender comes soon, as the clock is ticking and the wires are already being put up… great to see nonetheless.

 

[Snow1964]

The procurement notice has just been published - https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=NOV542816
Closing date is 19th January with an estimated date of invitations to tender of 17th July 2026

Thanks for sharing

Key points
min 69 trains, options for 37 more
Mix of EMU and BEMU (options also mix of both)

Technical support and spares agreement, min 15 years, upto 35 years
Contract start 28/04/2028
Contract end 27/04/2063

Tender return date 19th January 2026
ScotRail shall select applicants to negotiate with
Tender appears to be negotiated, not submit bids format

 

[matchmaker]

Thanks for sharing

Key points
min 69 trains, options for 37 more
Mix of EMU and BEMU (options also mix of both)

Technical support and spares agreement, min 15 years, upto 35 years
Contract start 28/04/2028
Contract end 27/04/2063

Tender return date 19th January 2026
ScotRail shall select applicants to negotiate with
Tender appears to be negotiated, not submit bids format

I think the date of 19th January is for the return of the Pre Qualification Questionnaire (PQQ). After the PQQs have been scored, tender documents will be issued to qualified bidders.

 

[EMU303]

Does the option of an additional 37 trains suggest replacement trains for the class 334s…..

 

[Snow1964]

Does the option of an additional 37 trains suggest replacement trains for the class 340s?

As the option could be a mix of EMU and BEMU could also be replacing some DMUs

There was some confusion near start of thread, the volume suggest they are trains (eg 5-7 car length) rather than replacing 2-4 car units. But I don't think this has ever been confirmed.

 

[Trainbike46]

Does the option of an additional 37 trains suggest replacement trains for the class 340s?

Assuming you are talking about the 334s, maybe?

Options are often used as a way to allow for growth of passenger numbers as well, so it could be that as well. Or in the case of further expansion of the BEMU-operated network.

 

[TrainViation]

As the option could be a mix of EMU and BEMU could also be some DMUs

There was some confusion near start of thread, the volume suggest they are trains (eg 5-7 car length) rather than replacing 2-4 car units. But I don't think this has ever been confirmed.

Considering they are trying to phase out as many DMUs as possible as soon as possible, I don't really see the point in buying NEW diesel trains just to replace or remove them 5-10 years later.

 

[BorderCollie]

That's what the UK Government DfT said when it vetoed the proposed industry-wide DMU orders in 2007-10 and the only order was the WM 172s when it should have been hundreds...

 

[EMU303]

Assuming you are talking about the 334s, maybe?

Options are often used as a way to allow for growth of passenger numbers as well, so it could be that as well. Or in the case of further expansion of the BEMU-operated network.

Yes, my typo (340), should have read 334, now corrected

 

[TrainViation]

the volume suggest they are trains (eg 5-7 car length) rather than replacing 2-4 car units. But I don't think this has ever been confirmed.

I seen somewhere that one of the scottish officials said they were aiming to operate an average of 6 coaches per service on the Fife line. So I'd imagine it could be a similar type of consist to the Class 385s.

 

[waverley47]

ScotRail shall select applicants to negotiate with
Tender appears to be negotiated, not submit bids format

This is the important bit. Scotrail felt stung by the 385 debacle, and wants a lot more input into the process than just 'go build us some units.'

As the option could be a mix of EMU and BEMU could also be some DMUs

ScotRail will not be procuring any more new purely diesel multiple units, at any point in the future. That ship has sailed. The BEMUs won't even have a small engine onboard, they're pure 25kvAC EMUs with a large battery pack.

There may be an argument for diesel-battery hybrids for the rural routes, but that is outwith the scope of this procurement.

I seen somewhere that one of the scottish officials said they were aiming to operate an average of 6 coaches per service on the Fife line. So I'd imagine it could be a similar type of consist to the Class 385s.

The aim is for a minimum length of 100m on all the Central Belt services. This is the maximum length of Queen Street platform 1, and Waverley platform 18 is only 109m.

 

[Fife coaster]

But how about the far north and west highland lines scotrail seems to have stuck its head in the sand they will need a diesel replacement