Class 222 withdrawal from EMR and future use (non-speculative)

[QSK19]

Why? Because DfT/EMR didn't deal with the situation and plan ahead... instead them went for the cheapest option and let things run on hope... but again, the DfT will let EMR, Lumo, SR, Hitachi etc take the bad press because of their bad management.

I'm sorry, but we've had this out in numerous threads before. Why should Lumo, a private enterprise, not under government control, have its operation controlled and dictated to because of DfT mismanagement, and poor product design.... other than the feelings that east Midlands passengers are being persecuted

Unfortunately, some people will always hold onto the notion that a nationalised railway is better than privatisation in every single way and can do absolutely no wrong. They believe that the DfT should automatically have precedence over OA operators. In the 222 EMR-Lumo saga, as you quite rightly say, Lumo is completely out of the DfT’s control and is in no way beholden to it.

If things really go south and EMR lose the 222s to SR before 810s come into service (I wouldn’t rule it out absolutely 100%) and hence IC services become non-existent for a while, the DfT will have massive questions to answer. Chickens would come home to roost.

 

[bramling]

Unfortunately, some people will always hold onto the notion that a nationalised railway is better than privatisation in every single way and can do absolutely no wrong. They believe that the DfT should automatically have precedence over OA operators. In the 222 EMR-Lumo saga, as you quite rightly say, Lumo is completely out of the DfT’s control and is in no way beholden to it.

If things really go south and EMR lose the 222s to SR before 810s come into service (I wouldn’t rule it out absolutely 100%) and hence IC services become non-existent for a while, the DfT will have massive questions to answer. Chickens would come home to roost.

Questions to answer to whom though? It’s already quite apparent that the DFT appears to be accountable to no one in practice, and it’s not like individual politicians have much sway with no general election due in the near future.

So it seems either the situation will just have to be lived with (no doubt DFT will attempt to deflect as much blame on Hitachi as possible), or see if the Scottish government are amenable to an agreement regarding the 222s.

 

[QSK19]

Questions to answer to whom though? It’s already quite apparent that the DFT appears to be accountable to no one in practice, and it’s not like individual politicians have much sway with no general election due in the near future.

So it seems either the situation will just have to be lived with (no doubt DFT will attempt to deflect as much blame on Hitachi as possible), or see if the Scottish government are amenable to an agreement regarding the 222s.

The electorate when the next general election does eventually come. Something so fundamental like there being no IC services wouldn’t fade from the memories of East Midlands folk - it’s one thing having tatty trains, it’s quite another there being no IC provision at all. They’d think back to 2025/2026 when they couldn’t get to work, couldn’t get to business meetings, couldn’t visit family on important occasions, etc. There would also be the feeling of neglect - not bothering to provide them with an essential public service.

Many Labour-held constituencies are under threat from Reform (the Tories are dead, quite frankly) in the East Midlands, so the DfT/government would be unwise to let things slide and do nothing. Let’s not forget that ministers need the electorate to vote for them!

 

[cj_1985]

The electorate when the next general election does eventually come. Something so fundamental like there being no IC services wouldn’t fade from the memories of East Midlands folk - it’s one thing having tatty trains, it’s quite another there being no IC provision at all. They’d think back to 2025/2026 when they couldn’t get to work, couldn’t get to business meetings, couldn’t visit family on important occasions, etc. There would also be the feeling of neglect - not bothering to provide them with an essential public service.

Many Labour-held constituencies are under threat from Reform (the Tories are dead, quite frankly), so

Yeah, but to most people, they'd blame EMR, not the DfT... being ignorant of the DfTs involvement

 

[Potteries 323]

If there was so much spare stock under BR, then why did so many lines have such a pathetic Sunday (or even Saturday) service?

Maybe just a two hourly service, starting mid-morning, if there were any trains at all on a Sunday.

Does anyone have a comparison Sunday timetable for Haddenham in 1990 versus today? Maybe I've forgotten these relentless 7 coach services on a Sunday.

We have not had a Sunday service at Congleton since January! Thats privitatisation for you.In BR days you could rely on the timetable and the last train of the day always run.Thesedays its cancellations all the time day in day out and even the last trains of the days are cancelled leaving passengers stranded.The worse three private operators for cancellations are Avanti,Cross Country and EMR but these are not due to be Nationalised until 2027.Why not strip them of the contract immediately for contract breaches.A quick check on RTT at 08.00 and we have 3 cancellations at Stoke already with Avanti and Cross Country.There were 5 yesterday,4 on Tuesday,5 on Monday and a massive 11 on Sunday!

 

[Falcon1200]

If there was no spare stock under BR where did all the locos and coaches come from for the numerous "Merrymaker" excursions most weekends and the many "Footex" football excursions every Saturday.

Many of those services were formed by sets used during the week for commuter trains, eg the Oxford/Paignton Summer Saturday train.

 

[Potteries 323]

Yeah, but to most people, they'd blame EMR, not the DfT... being ignorant of the DfTs involvement

EMR were the ones that ordered the 810s to replace the 222s when they didnt need to.They could have kept and refurbished the 222s like Cross Country are doing with the older but similar Voyagers so why blame the DFT for EMRs failings?

 

[QSK19]

Yeah, but to most people, they'd blame EMR, not the DfT... being ignorant of the DfTs involvement

Yes, but many would then add “but the government should have stepped in and given EMR trains to run the services. I couldn’t get to work because Labour just don’t care about transport in our region”.

And in any case, I’m sure Reform (and the other opposition parties campaigning in the East Mids) would emphasise time and time again that fault would lie with the government, not the TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2025 ==

EMR were the ones that ordered the 810s to replace the 222s when they didnt need to.They could have kept and refurbished the 222s like Cross Country are doing with the older but similar Voyagers so why blame the DFT for EMRs failings?

Because the DfT were the ones who set the franchise agreement mandating brand new IC trains (so refurbished 222s would have been non-compliant) and now hold the purse strings when it comes to expenditure.

 

[Potteries 323]

You are conveniently forgetting it was BR who withdrew the 3 car Swindon Cross Country DMUs and introduced the single car 153s on that route…

No they didnt. BR introduced Class 156s on the Derby-Stoke route with Sprinters working before them even the prototype 150 and 151 worked the route.We even had top and tail Class 20s with 3 coaches for a while! BR replaced the Swindon Units with standard Derby built DMUs before the Sprinters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2025 ==

Yes, but many would then add “but the government should have stepped in and given EMR trains to run the services. I couldn’t get to work because Labour just don’t care about transport in our region”.

And in any case, I’m sure Reform (and the other opposition parties campaigning in the East Mids) would emphasise time and time again that fault would lie with the government, not the TOC.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2025 ==


Because the DfT were the ones who set the franchise agreement mandating brand new IC trains (so refurbished 222s would have been non-compliant) and now hold the purse strings when it comes to expenditure.

EMR were not told that they had to order 810s by the DFT thats what they chose to do,the same as they chose to replace their 153 and 156 units with second hand cast off 170s from other operators buying new trains for their services.What did all the other bidders propose? EMR took over the franchise in August 2019 it is now October 2025 six years later and still no new Inter City trains in service.BR designed, built and tested the prototype HST from scratch and production HSTs entered service en mass in less time that this! Prototype built 1972 Production sets built 1975 entered service 1976.Prototype HST holds UK diesel speed record of 143mph.Those 810 donkeys and other IEPS would never match that in 100 years!

 

[dosxuk]

What did all the other bidders propose?

There were no other bidders.

The only other qualified entrant to the competition - Stagecoach - was disqualified for not wanting to take on the pension risk from the DfT. Abelio won by default.

 

[QSK19]

There were no other bidders.

The only other qualified entrant to the competition - Stagecoach - was disqualified for not wanting to take on the pension risk from the DfT. Abelio won by default.

And the others pulled out in favour of more lucrative franchises.

EMR has been flawed from the beginning… and here we are now with no resilience in the IC fleet and a real risk of 222s going off lease before enough 810s can maintain at least a half decent timetable.

 

[snookertam]

EMR is run by Abellio? Well that figures. Expect them to lose the 222s without the replacement being ready.

 

[QSK19]

EMR were not told that they had to order 810s by the DFT thats what they chose to do,the same as they chose to replace their 153 and 156 units with second hand cast off 170s from other operators buying new trains for their services.What did all the other bidders propose? EMR took over the franchise in August 2019 it is now October 2025 six years later and still no new Inter City trains in service.BR designed, built and tested the prototype HST from scratch and production HSTs entered service en mass in less time that this! Prototype built 1972 Production sets built 1975 entered service 1976.Prototype HST holds UK diesel speed record of 143mph.Those 810 donkeys and other IEPS would never match that in 100 years!

I agree that the trains of today are nothing on the HSTs - heck, those could probably last 75 or 100 years and still be solid workhorses. I miss them on the MML.

But ultimately, the DfT has presided over this mess (particularly since Covid emergency measures). EMR are simply a “yes sir, will do sir” party with no independence beyond simply day-to-day operations.

Back on topic, how many 222s are now in the EMR fleet (I mean operationally, not necessarily contractually)? Is it 24 or 25?

 

[LowLevel]

I agree that the trains of today are nothing on the HSTs - heck, those could probably last 75 or 100 years and still be solid workhorses. I miss them on the MML.

But ultimately, the DfT has presided over this mess (particularly since Covid emergency measures). EMR are simply a “yes sir, will do sir” party with no independence beyond simply day-to-day operations.

Back on topic, how many 222s are now in the EMR fleet (I mean operationally, not necessarily contractually)? Is it 24 or 25?

26. 22 x /0 and the 4 x /1 units. Though apparently 001 hasn't worked for ages.

 

[QSK19]

EMR is run by Abellio? Well that figures. Expect them to lose the 222s without the replacement being ready.

Yep! Before franchising was thrown out of the window, they could just deliver a crap service, no care for its passengers, yet the DfT wouldn’t strip them of the franchise. Easiest operation ever for them to run - not under pressure to deliver, complacency sets in and here we are in the present day with a dire IC situation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2025 ==

26. 22 x /0 and the 4 x /1 units. Though apparently 001 hasn't worked for ages.

Many thanks! I don’t envy you guys trying your best to keep things going with, metaphorically speaking, a half-full toolbox.

 

[liamf656]

Back on topic, how many 222s are now in the EMR fleet (I mean operationally, not necessarily contractually)? Is it 24 or 25?

Only 005 is off lease currently giving us 26x 5 car units and 4x 7 car units. 001/002 leave fairly soon (001 currently being out of service long term)

 

[QSK19]

Only 005 is off lease currently giving us 26x 5 car units and 4x 7 car units. 001/002 leave fairly soon (001 currently being out of service long term)

So we’re talking about an effective fleet of 25 at the min, dropping down to 24 in the near future. I suppose the only remote silver lining is that it’s a gradual drop to 22 instead of the 5 Lumo-bound ones being withdrawn suddenly?

 

[liamf656]

So we’re talking about an effective fleet of 25 at the min, dropping down to 24 in the near future. I suppose the only remote silver lining is that it’s a gradual drop to 22 instead of the 5 Lumo-bound ones being withdrawn suddenly?

Don't forget we are expecting two 810s in service around the same time 222001/002 go off lease

 

[QSK19]

Don't forget we are expecting two 810s in service around the same time 222001/002 go off lease

Ah that does sound promising indeed! Fingers crossed!

 

[Clarence Yard]

If there was no spare stock under BR where did all the locos and coaches come from for the numerous "Merrymaker" excursions most weekends and the many "Footex" football excursions every Saturday. I remember all the loco hauled special trains to Wembley for the FA Cup Finals every year and look at all those special trains to the Spalding flower festival every year.We had special trains formed of Class 20s with 6 or 7 Mk2 coaches in the 1990s going to Blackpool and North Wales daily during the summer months.Not to mention frequent Relief expresses to provide extra capacity on busy trains It all disappeared under privitisation due to no spare stock.

There were 6150 Mk 1 and early Mk 2 ordinary service LHCS day coaches (i.e excluding caterers, pullmans, sleepers and non corridor) in service as at 31/12/71. By the time the stock was handed over to the ROSCOs at the end of March 1994, that total had shrunk to just 125 and a considerable number of those were on borrowed time.

The only 3 sub sectors left (all Regional Railways) that had such stock were Scotland (46 Mk 2), North East (9 Mk 2) and North West (58 Mk 2 and 12 Mk 1). Scotland and North East finished with LHCS in 1995 and the North West fleet was severely reduced about the same time. This was all a continuation of the process that had been going on for years by the regions/sectors, nothing to do with privatisation.

A word about badly performing TOCs and taking contracts back. The DfT can’t take contracts back when the root cause of the problem is because of a DfT decision. And as the TOCs are now just dancing to the tune of the DfT, there isn’t much that can’t be traced back to the DfT!

But it looks as if Hitachi is now getting to grips with the 810 issues and some relief to the hard pressed 222 fleet is imminent. This should also help any 222 withdrawal plan.

 

[baz962]

EMR is run by Abellio? Well that figures. Expect them to lose the 222s without the replacement being ready.

Not since 2023 , it's now Transport uk group.

 

[Potteries 323]

There were no other bidders.

The only other qualified entrant to the competition - Stagecoach - was disqualified for not wanting to take on the pension risk from the DfT. Abelio won by default.

First Group ,Stagecoach and Arriva were all shortlisted along with Abellio to bid for the East Midlands franchise with Stagecoach later disqualified.

 

[Russel]

First Group ,Stagecoach and Arriva were all shortlisted along with Abellio to bid for the East Midlands franchise with Stagecoach later disqualified.

Arriva running EMR is a concerning thought, the residents of Derby, Nottingham and Leicester really would have drawn the short straw having both main TOCs under Arriva!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

First Group ,Stagecoach and Arriva were all shortlisted along with Abellio to bid for the East Midlands franchise with Stagecoach later disqualified.

Shortlisting is only a stage in franchise competitions.

First Group may have been short-listed but they chose to withdraw and did not submit a bid.

Establishing a secure connection ...

“THE FIRSTGROUP/TRENITALIA joint venture has withdrawn from bidding for the new East Midlands franchise, due to start in August 2019”

Both Stagecoach and Arriva were disqualified from the competition.

DfT confirms Arriva disqualification from East Midlands franchise

BRITAIN’s Department for Transport (DfT) has confirmed to IRJ that Arriva was also disqualified from bidding for the East Midlands passenger franchise.

www.railjournal.com

“BRITAIN’s Department for Transport (DfT) has confirmed to IRJ that Arriva was also disqualified from bidding for the East Midlands passenger franchise along with Stagecoach ahead of awarding the franchise to Netherlands Railways subsidiary Abellio”

 

[Potteries 323]

There were 6150 Mk 1 and early Mk 2 ordinary service LHCS day coaches (i.e excluding caterers, pullmans, sleepers and non corridor) in service as at 31/12/71. By the time the stock was handed over to the ROSCOs at the end of March 1994, that total had shrunk to just 125 and a considerable number of those were on borrowed time.

The only 3 sub sectors left (all Regional Railways) that had such stock were Scotland (46 Mk 2), North East (9 Mk 2) and North West (58 Mk 2 and 12 Mk 1). Scotland and North East finished with LHCS in 1995 and the North West fleet was severely reduced about the same time. This was all a continuation of the process that had been going on for years by the regions/sectors, nothing to do with privatisation.

A word about badly performing TOCs and taking contracts back. The DfT can’t take contracts back when the root cause of the problem is because of a DfT decision. And as the TOCs are now just dancing to the tune of the DfT, there isn’t much that can’t be traced back to the DfT!

But it looks as if Hitachi is now getting to grips with the 810 issues and some relief to the hard pressed 222 fleet is imminent. This should also help any 222 withdrawal plan.

Dont forget all the Mk 3 and 4 coaches that were handed over to the ROSCOs and the Mk3 HST coaching stock.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I haven’t, nor the Mk 2D-F fleet - I was specifically mentioning the stock that was used on dated and extra trains in the period you were referring to.

It was done to prove to you (& others) that privatisation wasn’t responsible for the decline in that type of working with that type of stock. It had been happening for years.

 

[Qwerty133]

Not to do the whole England vs Scotland thing... but Scotrail is not under the control of the DfT, and if Scotrail decide they want to use the 222s from the start of agreed lease, there's nothing that the DfT or EMR can do to change things... nothing at all to with the DfT giving, or not giving, the short end of the stick

I'm pretty sure the units would be available to EMR indefinitely (and probably at no charge) if the DFT could convince the Treasury to threaten to remove Scotland's (unaffordable) privileged subsidy from the rest of the UK if they would not give them up.

 

[38Cto15E]

The MP for Market Harborough has posted that EMR have said that 2 x 810's will be in service from December, 5 x more in the spring and 33 x more later in 2026. This was on a Facebook post after he had a chat with EMR management, who also told him that MH would have a later train home from London at 2335 hrs.

 

[43096]

The MP for Market Harborough has posted that EMR have said that 2 x 810's will be in service from December, 5 x more in the spring and 33 x more later in 2026. This was on a Facebook post after he had a chat with EMR management, who also told him that MH would have a later train home from London at 2335 hrs.

I’m not sure how “33 more” is do-able: there’s only 33 on order in total.

 

[liamf656]

The MP for Market Harborough has posted that EMR have said that 2 x 810's will be in service from December, 5 x more in the spring and 33 x more later in 2026. This was on a Facebook post after he had a chat with EMR management, who also told him that MH would have a later train home from London at 2335 hrs.

Already discussed in the Class 810 thread, so not really a topic for this one:

(the below post onwards)

So the MP for Market Harborough has had a meeting with EMR and the latest is 2 sets in December, another 5 in the spring and the remaining 26 sets in Q3 and Q4 2026