KGX to Grimsby via Louth c1970

[Nacht-Zug-Fahr]

Good Morning ,

I’m trying to find out which Locomotives would have hauled the KGX to Grimsby services on the East Lincolnshire Line in the late 1960s to closure in 1970.

I’m trying to recreate a complete 00 gauge train formation.

 

[Magdalia]

Mostly class 47s with the occasional class 31 substitution.

 

[Nacht-Zug-Fahr]

I’m guessing Deltics were not cleared for the route

 

[Magdalia]

I’m guessing Deltics were not cleared for the route

Route clearance would not have been an issue, Deltics have been to Skegness.

The issue would have been traction knowledge. The service was two up trains in the morning and two down trains in the evening, and the drivers were all Immingham or Peterborough.

 

[The exile]

I’m trying to recreate a complete 00 gauge train formation.

Misread this and thought you were going to need a very big garage!

 

[Nacht-Zug-Fahr]

Route clearance would not have been an issue, Deltics have been to Skegness.

The issue would have been traction knowledge. The service was two up trains in the morning and two down trains in the evening, and the drivers were all Immingham or Peterborough.

Interesting , I wonder if the Immingham drivers working a Grimsby to KGX service would just work to Peterborough , and a new driver take over to KgX

 

[Gloster]

Interesting , I wonder if the Immingham drivers working a Grimsby to KGX service would just work to Peterborough , and a new driver take over to KgX

In those days it was the fixed eight-hour day. The eight hours included signing on, reading notices, walking to the loco, preparing it to the extent necessary, a twenty-minute PNB in the middle, etc. As it took three and a half hours from Grimsby to Kings Cross it would not be possible to do a return trip within the eight. Changing drivers at Peterborough would be the best solution: remember that it was all one company so no no problem about doing one leg on an express and the other on a partially-braked freight.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

I’m guessing Deltics were not cleared for the route

With all due respect to the route Deltics would have been wasted on it in those days - as would LNER Pacifics have been in their day. (Although Britannias did work it regularly before dieselisation).

 

[Harvester]

With all due respect to the route Deltics would have been wasted on it in those days - as would LNER Pacifics have been in their day. (Although Britannias did work it regularly before dieselisation).

Before the Britannias took over in 1961 Immingham B1s were used. The round trip of over 300 miles with heavy loads, and non-stop running each way on the ECML between Peterborough and Kings Cross, was one of the hardest daily B1 duties on BR.

 

[Clarence Yard]

If anybody had put a Deltic on an ordinary service on the East Lincs, they would have been sacked! Deltics were intensively diagrammed in those days and strictly for ECML services. When I used the East Lincs services in 1969/70 they were cl.47 hauled.

Boston men used to work those trains as well (going through to London too) but I can’t remember if they were still on that work right up to October 1970.

 

[jfollows]

I’m guessing Deltics were not cleared for the route

Deltic diagrams for the period are at http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt70-71_diagrams.htm and don’t include this service.

 

[70014IronDuke]

With all due respect to the route Deltics would have been wasted on it in those days - as would LNER Pacifics have been in their day. (Although Britannias did work it regularly before dieselisation).

Indeed - what was the line speed? 70/75 mph at a guess, but maybe 80 mph, surely no more?

Before the Britannias took over in 1961 Immingham B1s were used. The round trip of over 300 miles with heavy loads, and non-stop running each way on the ECML between Peterborough and Kings Cross, was one of the hardest daily B1 duties on BR.

I seem to remember "Mayflower" was a frequently diagrammed loco for one of the turns when B1s still ruled - or did I just catch it on my odd trip or two to the ECML before the Brits took over?

I also have an idea that the Brits slashed the B1 timings south of Peterboro' - perhaps by 15 mins or so?

But returning strictly to the OP's question, did Cl 37s never work the trains? Maybe I'm getting mixed up with the Cutler in early diesel days.

 

[Magdalia]

But returning strictly to the OP's question, did Cl 37s never work the trains? Maybe I'm getting mixed up with the Cutler in early diesel days.

Yes EE Type 3s from Darnall worked from summer 1963 until the Brush Type 4s took over (about 1966?). There was also a brief period in winter 1962/63 with Brush Type 2s after the Britannias finished because the EE Type 3s were delivered late.

Boston men used to work those trains as well (going through to London too) but I can’t remember if they were still on that work right up to October 1970.

I have some loco diagrams from the EE Type 3 era that also show the traincrew. It is all Immingham or Peterborough. I expect that diesels replacing steam was the end of the involvement of Boston crew.

Indeed - what was the line speed? 70/75 mph at a guess, but maybe 80 mph, surely no more?

The LNER 1947 Sectional Appendix gives 65mph Boston-Grimsby.

 

[Harvester]

I seem to remember "Mayflower" was a frequently diagrammed loco for one of the turns when B1s still ruled - or did I just catch it on my odd trip or two to the ECML before the Brits took over?

I also have an idea that the Brits slashed the B1 timings south of Peterboro' - perhaps by 15 mins or so?

”Mayflower“ (61379) was a regular performer, as was “Geoffrey Gibbs” (61248) prior to the Brits taking over. The B1 timings were fairly lax in 1959 /60, roughly 90 mins Kings Cross- Peterborough, but loads were heavy, usually around 400 tons. The Brits may have reduced timings, but I don’t have details.

 

[hexagon789]

I’m guessing Deltics were not cleared for the route

Route clearance would not have been an issue, Deltics have been to Skegness.

Lighter axle load than a 47, so certainly the weight would not have been a problem.

As others have said, with the more modest line speeds, using a Deltic would've been a waste especially as they were quite tightly diagrammed on the better trains, so there weren't really any spare for lesser workings until the HSTs displaced them.

 

[norbitonflyer]

A Deltic mighth have been used in extremis between London and Peterborough, or as a running in turn. Not very likely though.

 

[Magdalia]

A Deltic mighth have been used in extremis between London and Peterborough, or as a running in turn. Not very likely though.

The running in turn for Finsbury Park Deltics was the 1130 Kings Cross-Cambridge Buffet Express and 1330 back.

This continued a tradition from steam days with A4s.

 

[liam456]

A quick question for you both, what is a 'running in' turn?

 

[jfollows]

A quick question for you both, what is a 'running in' turn?

The operating of a new engine (especially that of a motor vehicle) at less than its normal speed until proper working has been established.

(https://www.yourdictionary.com/running-in)
Essentially, don’t put a Deltic on an Edinburgh service immediately, but on a shorter run to ensure all is good following some kind of maintenance or repair work. The consequence of failure is much less.

 

[Magdalia]

A quick question for you both, what is a 'running in' turn?

In the Finsbury Park Deltic example, a loco which had undergone a major repair would be "run in" by giving it a relatively easy task for its first trip. It is a bit like a footballer returning from injury coming on as a sub for 15 minutes.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Hitchin also used the Cambridge branch for running in type 2 locos under repair or exam there, usually LE moves.

 

[Magdalia]

Hitchin also used the Cambridge branch for running in type 2 locos under repair or exam there, usually LE moves.

I have a vague recollection from somewhere that Hitchin did some major exams on Type 2s to ease the workload at Finsbury Park, is that right?

 

[liam456]

Thank you! I thought about running-in from the automotive world as described but was wondering why this might need to be done on a regular basis as part of a normal diagram.
So a running-in turn would be scheduled after overhauls/maintenance/re-entry into service/etc. then it would be back to regular diagramming?

 

[Clarence Yard]

I have a vague recollection from somewhere that Hitchin did some major exams on Type 2s to ease the workload at Finsbury Park, is that right?

They did them as a matter of course up to B exam on a Brush 2 and C exam on a Baby Deltic. They could help out on C exams on Brush 2’s.

D or E exams would always be done at 34G/FP. incidentally, Deltics didn’t have E exams, their biggest was a D.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In the Finsbury Park Deltic example, a loco which had undergone a major repair would be "run in" by giving it a relatively easy task for its first trip. It is a bit like a footballer returning from injury coming on as a sub for 15 minutes.

Indeed, at some locations there were some services which were preferred for that purpose.

I did once read of a Class 50 that got to Kings Cross (from Doncaster) on such a turn, and a 44 double haeding a 45 to St Pancras long after they were normally confined to the east Midlands.

 

[Harvester]

I did once read of a Class 50 that got to Kings Cross (from Doncaster) on such a turn,

Class 50s arriving on trains into Kings Cross would have already been run in at Doncaster. Such workings were a way of returning the locos to the WR after overhaul, passenger working to Kings Cross, then LE to Old Oak Common.

 

[70014IronDuke]

”Mayflower“ (61379) was a regular performer, as was “Geoffrey Gibbs” (61248) prior to the Brits taking over.

Ah, so my grey matter has not totally dissolved into goo then

The B1 timings were fairly lax in 1959 /60, roughly 90 mins Kings Cross- Peterborough, but loads were heavy, usually around 400 tons. The Brits may have reduced timings, but I don’t have details.

Well, with 400 tons trailing load (presumably 11 or 12 on, including a restaurant car?) 90 mins for the 80 something miles would have been hard going for the loco and fireman on a Class 5. I doubt it could get above 70 mph max.

Yes EE Type 3s from Darnall worked from summer 1963 until the Brush Type 4s took over (about 1966?). There was also a brief period in winter 1962/63 with Brush Type 2s after the Britannias finished because the EE Type 3s were delivered late.

Ah, thanks! I'd have thought a Brush 2 would have struggled to keep Brit timings. But winter loads might have been easier - maybe only 8-9 coaches?

The LNER 1947 Sectional Appendix gives 65mph Boston-Grimsby.

Makes sense for a secondary line. In any case, a B1 would surely have had to work hard with those loads to reach 65 mph, especially on the return journey, I'd imagine with clinker problems in a narrow firebox at the end of a 300 mile turn?

EDITL I seem to remember seeing Alfred the Great (70009?) and Robin Hood (70038?) on those trains in the summer of 62. Probably just normal Immingham locos, I suppose.

 

[Taunton]

(https://www.yourdictionary.com/running-in)
Essentially, don’t put a Deltic on an Edinburgh service immediately, but on a shorter run to ensure all is good following some kind of maintenance or repair work. The consequence of failure is much less.

It also got the fitter, who was likely accompanying it to check the work done under running conditions, out and home again within normal hours.

 

[TheBeard]

There was remarkably 33s trialled when Crew trained near Peterborough

 

[Grumpy]

In those days it was the fixed eight-hour day. The eight hours included signing on, reading notices, walking to the loco, preparing it to the extent necessary, a twenty-minute PNB in the middle, etc. As it took three and a half hours from Grimsby to Kings Cross it would not be possible to do a return trip within the eight. Changing drivers at Peterborough would be the best solution: remember that it was all one company so no no problem about doing one leg on an express and the other on a partially-braked freight.

Surely the 8 hour max(and the rest such as clear 30 minute break between the third and fifth hours), only applied to single manned turns? Longer turns could be worked with a second man. Given the lack of ETH at that time, wouldn’t these trains have been double manned (at least in the heating season)?