How best to break journey into peak and off peak?

[MrChips69]

Hi - I'm travelling from north London (Oakwood, zone 5) to Gatwick this evening. Due to the flight time, I'll be getting on the tube shortly before 7pm and changing at Finsbury Park to get on the National Rail just after 7pm.

If treated as one complete journey, it will be a peak fare of £22.10. However, if breaking the journey into two separate ones, then it will be a peak underground fare to Finsbury Park (£3.20) and an off-peak fare from FPK to Gatwick (£10.70).

I could use two different cards for the two parts of the journey to get the separate fares. However, my 14-year-old will be with me with his zip Oyster card, and he doesn't have this option. For him, the continuous peak fare will be £11.05, whereas breaking the journey in two will be a total of £4.

So, unless anyone has a more cunning solution, I think we would need to touch out at Finsbury Park and leave a gap before touching in again once the system thinks these are two separate journeys. In which case, how long is the time period needed for this?

Also, if to do this, does it make a difference where we touch our cards to 'exit'? There is a wall mounted card reader at the top of the stairs between the underground and the national rail platforms. Would that suffice, or would we need to physically leave the station altogether and reenter?

Thanks!

ps originally added this to the London Underground board but guess it fits better here

 

[Watershed]

If you exit the station and re-enter (at the same gateline) you will split the journey in two for charging purposes, without needing to wait a number of minutes, as would be the case for a standalone reader. The gatelines at Finsbury Park are at each end of the passageways across the station, so it's not really much of an inconvenience to pass through them when changing between Underground and National Rail services.

Note that there are two gatelines at the eastern end - one with TfL staff (the southern one, next to the passageway that only has stairs to the Underground) and one with GTR staff (the northern one, next to the passageway that has steps up to the National Rail platforms and a spiral staircase down to the Underground). These two gatelines count as separate 'stations' in the Oyster/contactless system and your journey will be joined up if you exit at one and re-enter at the other within 10 minutes. So you would be best advised to use the western gateline as that's then quicker for your interchange.

 

[MrChips69]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Apologies but I'm in need of a little clarification...

I have a little familiarity with Finsbury Park station but clearly not so much as you. When interchanging onto National Rail, I usually climb the spiral staircase up from the Piccadilly Line platform to the corridor directly below the national rail platforms. There's a card reader there I believe. From what you say, I think that using that would not break the journey.

What we need to do is tap out of the underground station using the gateline (this is a physical ticket barrier, right?). Then tap in again through exactly the same gateline and make our way up to the national rail platforms from that part of the station (which serves the underground platforms).

In doing this, you say it's quicker to use the gateline at the Western end rather than the Eastern end of the long straight corridor which connects the stairs down to the underground platforms.

Correct summary?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2025 ==

Sorry, just to add, from memory I think there's also a gateline to pass through at the top of the stairs to access the National Rail platforms. Presumably touching in here would not spoil the plan above assuming we've touched out of the station and back in?

 

[Watershed]

No problem. Yes, it's a station I'm quite familiar with, having friends who live nearby!

What we need to do is tap out of the underground station using the gateline (this is a physical ticket barrier, right?).

Yep, the physical barrier. A standalone reader can end your journey, but you can't then recommence your journey immediately because the system doesn't know that you are intending to start another journey. A gateline is directional (hence some barriers are entry-only and others exit-only) so it knows whether you are entering (starting a journey) or exiting (finishing a journey).

Then tap in again through exactly the same gateline and make our way up to the national rail platforms from that part of the station (which serves the underground platforms).

Exactly.

In doing this, you say it's quicker to use the gateline at the Western end rather than the Eastern end of the long straight corridor which connects the stairs down to the underground platforms.

I think it's quicker but it's probably marginal either way. The main thing is that you don't exit the station via the eastern Tube gateline and then take a few steps over to re-enter via the National Rail gateline. That would join up the journey, negating the point of you exiting and re-entering.

Sorry, just to add, from memory I think there's also a gateline to pass through at the top of the stairs to access the National Rail platforms. Presumably touching in here would not spoil the plan above assuming we've touched out of the station and back in?

The only gates at Finsbury Park are at the exits at street level - 2 at the eastern side (where the bus station is) and 1 at the western side of the station (where the M&S and newly opened Greggs lookalike is). I don't know what the layout was in the past as I've only been using the station for the last few years, but that's the arrangement now.

 

[MrChips69]

Perfect, all clear.

Re gatelines at National Rail, I believe there used to be some at the top of the stairs allowing access to the platforms, but they've perhaps been removed (and inserted at street level instead where they didn't use to exist).

 

[Tester]

Perfect, all clear.

Re gatelines at National Rail, I believe there used to be some at the top of the stairs allowing access to the platforms, but they've perhaps been removed (and inserted at street level instead where they didn't use to exist).

That is correct - gone now.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The most cost-effective and easiest place to do the gateline dance is usually at East Croydon. For this journey it would be £8.80+£4.10, assuming a touch in at East Croydon after 7pm.

Depending on where you are on the train, you can either:
go up the ramp at the southern end of the station, out through the barriers, and then back in; or
up the stairs/lift to the footbridge at the northern end of the station, then out and in through the barriers.

There are more choices of train from East Croydon to Gatwick Airport so you are unlikely to be delayed by more than a few minutes.

e gatelines at National Rail, I believe there used to be some at the top of the stairs allowing access to the platforms, but they've perhaps been removed (and inserted at street level instead where they didn't use to exist).

The gatelines at the top of the stairs to the National Rail platforms were removed when the new Wells Terrace entrance was built. If you are going to do it at Finsbury Park, the easiest place to do the gateline dance is likely to be at the bus station side of the station, as Bear in mind the Wells Terrace (western) gateline is relatively small and can get very busy at that time of day.

ETA: Just thought, the gateline dance might not work at Finsbury Park at all because there's an out-of-station interchange (OSI) between the Underground and National Rail gatelines. This means that if you touch out on the Underground barrier then in on the National Rail barrier within 10 minutes then it is treated as a continuation of the original journey. I don't know if the Wells Terrace (western) gateline is also included in the OSI; whilst I would presume that it is, it isn't clearly documented anywhere.

 

[Watershed]

ETA: Just thought, the gateline dance might not work at Finsbury Park because there's an out-of-station interchange (OSI) between the Underground and National Rail gatelines. This means that if you touch out on the Underground barrier then in on the National Rail barrier then it is treated as a continuation of the original journey.

Yes, as noted earlier:

Note that there are two gatelines at the eastern end - one with TfL staff (the southern one, next to the passageway that only has stairs to the Underground) and one with GTR staff (the northern one, next to the passageway that has steps up to the National Rail platforms and a spiral staircase down to the Underground). These two gatelines count as separate 'stations' in the Oyster/contactless system and your journey will be joined up if you exit at one and re-enter at the other within 10 minutes. So you would be best advised to use the western gateline as that's then quicker for your interchange.

Hence it's best to either do it at the western gateline (possible via either the stairs or the spiral staircase from the Underground), or to take the spiral staircase and then the National Rail eastern gateline.

 

[MrJeeves]

Note that there are two gatelines at the eastern end - one with TfL staff (the southern one, next to the passageway that only has stairs to the Underground) and one with GTR staff (the northern one, next to the passageway that has steps up to the National Rail platforms and a spiral staircase down to the Underground). These two gatelines count as separate 'stations' in the Oyster/contactless system and your journey will be joined up if you exit at one and re-enter at the other within 10 minutes. So you would be best advised to use the western gateline as that's then quicker for your interchange.

Would it be possible to exit and reenter at the TfL staffed gates, and then exit again and go through the GTR gates? It would certainly look particularly strange, but I don't know if Oyster will split up the journey in this case.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hence it's best to either do it at the western gateline (possible via either the stairs or the spiral staircase from the Underground)

Is the Wells Terrace (western) gateline not part of the OSI? Logic suggests that it should be? The OSI list only helpfully lists Finsbury Park (LU) and Finsbury Park (NR). The Wells Terrace gateline replaced previous standalone readers at the old Wells Terrace entrance which were definitely LU.

My view would be to do the gateline dance at East Croydon, although this seems to be an edge case where it would cost the child a little bit more (£3.30+£2.05) than trying it at Finsbury Park.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Would it be possible to exit and reenter at the TfL staffed gates, and then exit again and go through the GTR gates? It would certainly look particularly strange, but I don't know if Oyster will split up the journey in this case.

Those gates are an OSI, so it would not split the journey in two.

Exit and re-enter the same gateline - no problem.

 

[MrJeeves]

Those gates are an OSI, so it would not split the journey in two.

Exit and re-enter the same gateline - no problem.

Even with the additional exit-reenter-exit at the same gateline first?

If it's not an OSI same-gateline, then would that not split up the journey before the OSI into the next GTR gateline (or maybe that is considered an abandoned journey with the charge removed after re-entering within N minutes)?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Those gates are an OSI, so it would not split the journey in two.

Exit and re-enter the same gateline - no problem.

Just checked my journey history and the Wells Terrace (western) gateline is Finsbury Park (LU). So if you then walk from the western gateline round to the NR gateline then it would be an OSI.

Would it not still be an OSI if you go in and out of the same gateline?

I'm sticking with East Croydon being a better place to do it. I know it works there

 

[Watershed]

Would it be possible to exit and reenter at the TfL staffed gates, and then exit again and go through the GTR gates? It would certainly look particularly strange, but I don't know if Oyster will split up the journey in this case.

Yes, I think that would work too - due to the triple 'out-in-out' at the gateline. However, you might attract some attention from staff doing something like that!

Is the Wells Terrace (western) gateline not part of the OSI? Logic suggests that it should be? The OSI list only helpfully lists Finsbury Park (LU) and Finsbury Park (NR). The Wells Terrace gateline replaced previous standalone readers at the old Wells Terrace entrance which were definitely LU.

My view would be to do the gateline dance at East Croydon, although this seems to be an edge case where it would cost the child a little bit more (£3.30+£2.05) than trying it at Finsbury Park.

It is part of the OSI (it's defined as part of "Finsbury Park (LU)") but why would you walk round to the eastern gateline? You'd simply touch out at the western gateline and then straight back in again. No need to walk to any other entrance.

Would it not still be an OSI if you go in and out of the same gateline?

It's only an OSI if you touch in at a different entrance/gateline to the one where you touched out. So out/in at Wells Terrace would not be an OSI. Whereas out at Wells Terrace or the eastern LU gateline, and in at the eastern NR gateline, would be an OSI.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Would it be possible to exit and reenter at the TfL staffed gates, and then exit again and go through the GTR gates? It would certainly look particularly strange, but I don't know if Oyster will split up the journey in this case.

Those gates are an OSI, so it would not split the journey in two.

Exit and re-enter the same gateline - no problem.

Even with the additional exit-reenter-exit at the same gateline first?

If it's not an OSI same-gateline, then would that not split up the journey before the OSI into the next GTR gateline (or maybe that is considered an abandoned journey with the charge removed after re-entering within N minutes)?

I've just more carefully re-read your earlier post (the first one quoted above) - I'd missed your point about the initial exit and re-enter at the same gateline. I don't quite know why someone would want to do that (OK I can think of a few reasons), but I think it'd likely work OK.

I suspect the OP is thoroughly confused if they are still reading this thread though!

 

[Watershed]

I suspect the OP is thoroughly confused if they are still reading this thread though!

Yep, I think we are at risk of overcomplicating this significantly! The OP just need to touch out and back in at the same gateline at Finsbury Park. It will all work correctly then and split the journey in 2 as they want.

Yes, they would save a little bit by undertaking a second split at East Croydon. But the OP has said they're aiming for a direct Gatwick service and they may well have luggage, so avoiding unnecessary changes is likely to be what they're after.

 

[MrJeeves]

Yes, definitely! I was just curious.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect the OP is thoroughly confused if they are still reading this thread though!

Never underestimate our ability to descend into minutiae

It's only an OSI if you touch in at a different entrance/gateline to the one where you touched out. So out/in at Wells Terrace would not be an OSI.

Right, I was assuming that out/in at Wells Terrace (not walking anywhere else) would still count as an OSI. If it doesn't then the OP is golden. Just beware the stampede of people heading for the W7 bus!

 

[TrainTraveler]

I've done more or less exactly the journey MrChips69 plans.

Take the lift from the Piccadilly Line (I assume there will be luggage) to the national rail corridor level (I think this will be the top of that lift) and turn right. Both passengers should go out of the gateline and come back in after 7pm

The first lift once you come in will take you to platform 2 where the Thameslink trains can be found.

It may be adventagous to also do the same "in and out" process at East Croydon if you have time.

EDIT It looks like the in and out at East Croydon would save another £2.20 on the adult fare (£10.70 vs £4.40 + £4.10) but it's more of a walk/trundle.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Would it not still be an OSI if you go in and out of the same gateline?

It's only an OSI if you touch in at a different entrance/gateline to the one where you touched out. So out/in at Wells Terrace would not be an OSI. Whereas out at Wells Terrace or the eastern LU gateline, and in at the eastern NR gateline, would be an OSI.

Right, I was assuming that out/in at Wells Terrace (not walking anywhere else) would still count as an OSI. If it doesn't then the OP is golden. Just beware the stampede of people heading for the W7 bus!

(I say this at the risk of being, well, wrong...)

OSIs, where they exist, don't ever apply to the same gateline. In other words, you should always be able to 'split' a contactless/Oyster journey by exiting and re-entering through the same gateline. (And if anyone watching thinks you're weird for doing this, then so be it!)

For completeness I'll add that the same logic does not apply to standalone readers, only to gates (or automatic barriers in other parlence).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes, they would save a little bit by undertaking a second split at East Croydon. But the OP has said they're aiming for a direct Gatwick service and they may well have luggage, so avoiding unnecessary changes is likely to be what they're after.

Is exiting/re-entering at East Croydon not still a right old faff, particularly so at rush hour (and especially with luggage in tow)?

 

[Watershed]

Is exiting/re-entering at East Croydon not still a right old faff, particularly so at rush hour,?

Quite possibly. Hence my caveat that it's not necessarily going to be of use to them.

 

[Tester]

Is exiting/re-entering at East Croydon not still a right old faff, particularly so at rush hour and especially with luggage in two?

It's what it is - some people will judge the (sometimes quite significant) saving worth it; some won't.

Same applies at Hatton Cross.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is exiting/re-entering at East Croydon not still a right old faff, particularly so at rush hour (and especially with luggage in tow)?

It’s not too bad, especially the ramp at the south end of the station. It’s easier with two people, leave one on the platform with the bags, do the gateline dance, then swap. The only real challenge is fighting the traffic coming up the ramp as you head back down.

I’d think it easier than the Wells Terrace gateline at Finsbury Park, which is pretty small with only a couple of gates. But it’s always horses for courses. The advantage of doing the gateline dance at Finsbury Park means you can sit down and relax all the way to Gatwick.

 

[Crithylum]

For him, the continuous peak fare will be £11.05, whereas breaking the journey in two will be a total of £4.

Off peak daily caps apply in the evening peak, and these are quite easy to reach on a Zip card

 

[Hadders]

Just to point out a bit more minutiae, the Wells Terrace entrance was closed years ago and replaced by one on Goodwin Street.

It has more ticket gates than the old Wells Terrace entrance.

 

[MrChips69]

Wow - that escalated quickly!

Probably for the best that I didn't see all the additional replies until this morning. We went with the original plan of exiting via the gateline at FP (albeit at the Eastern end, not Western). Then touching straight back in again (well not exactly straight, we had to top up my son's zip card first).

For belt and braces I used two separate cards and had the added complication that in the stress I couldn't remember which one I'd touched in at Oakwood with so also had to check on my TFL app for 2 mins before touching the FP gateline. TFL staff asked if everything was ok but other than that no challenge.

Looking at my account this morning, all went according to plan (£3.20 + £10.70 for me, £1 + £3 for son).

Thanks for the East Croydon suggestion. We were a bit short on time so weren't inclined to get off the train and catch the next one but will bear in mind for future.