Ongoing Northern line signal failure at Stockwell

[Watershed]

The Northern line has been operating under 'severe delays' for what seems like several days now, due to a signal failure at Stockwell.

What exactly is happening and why has it not been possible to fix it yet?

 

[bramling]

The Northern line has been operating under 'severe delays' for what seems like several days now, due to a signal failure at Stockwell.

What exactly is happening and why has it not been possible to fix it yet?

AIUI trains are intermittently (or sometimes less intermittently!) losing communication with the signalling system after departing Stockwell southbound, which then means every affected train has to go through a process of re-establishing communication, which takes 5-8 minutes per affected train. Hence why the line has been having to run a special service with a significantly reduced frequency.

I think it’s fair to say the cause is still not understood. A lot of fault finding has been going on and things have been tried, but the issue remains.

It’s also fair to say the comms being put out from TFL leadership is utterly abysmal, but that’s as one would expect sadly.

 

[Dstock7080]

Started on Sunday 19 morning.
Successive non-communicating trains in same spot.
After trackside equipment change failure still ongoing.
Suspected to be rails in four foot laying on cables, plan to move rails in engineering hours. Not done overnight but done on Monday during traffic hours 1530-1635. Trains still losing communication with signalling.
Tuesday morning was an unrelated TBTC loop failure at Tooting Broadway SB.
Today seems back to Stockwell.

 

[bramling]

Started on Sunday 19 morning.
Successive non-communicating trains in same spot.
After trackside equipment change failure still ongoing.
Suspected to be rails in four foot laying on cables, plan to move rails in engineering hours. Not done overnight but done on Monday during traffic hours 1530-1635. Trains still losing communication with signalling.
Tuesday morning was an unrelated TBTC loop failure at Tooting Broadway SB.
Today seems back to Stockwell.

The Stockwell issue has been ongoing more or less since it started during night tube on Saturday.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for the information. Let's hope they manage to sort it out soon.

 

[700007]

The communications surrounding this has been really poor. Why have TfL not put on additional (rail replacement) buses given that less than half the scheduled trains seem to be in operation? It also seems as if though the entire line is being used as collateral damage so to speak - I assume it's been looked into and ruled not feasible but what's preventing a near-normal service operating on the Battersea/Charing Cross/North London branches?

 

[bramling]

The communications surrounding this has been really poor. Why have TfL not put on additional (rail replacement) buses given that less than half the scheduled trains seem to be in operation? It also seems as if though the entire line is being used as collateral damage so to speak - I assume it's been looked into and ruled not feasible but what's preventing a near-normal service operating on the Battersea/Charing Cross/North London branches?

The difficulty is that what’s being run is a completely ad-hoc special service. It’s very hard to run a high frequency in this situation, and in any case the Morden/HB service is limited by how quickly trains can traverse the failure at Stockwell. In theory it would be possible to run some additional HB-Kennington trains (via either branch), but this may not be overly helpful as the busiest section is Stockwell southwards.

Completely agree the comms has been atrocious. With this now being day 4 of disruption, the senior leadership should be putting out comms as to what they’re doing about this, both in terms of the actual failure, and contingency travel arrangements.

I also find it quite remiss that there have been shutdowns during service hours to try snd rectify the issue, without any advance notice having been given to passengers. It’s bad enough that the service is shot to pieces, but at least under failure conditions as many people as possible can get from A to B. Worse to turn up off the Victoria Line at Stockwell and suddenly find there’s nothing running at all for an unspecified period.

Ideally, High Barnet-Battersea and Edgware-Morden would better match the limitations (as Morden is limited by the failure, so it’s better paired up with Edgware which is the less busy northern branch). But unfortunately this doesn’t really work because of where the depots are.

 

[CC100]

Yesterday (Tues) the train I was on departed Stockwell southbound, and came to an emergency stop. After a delay it then proceeded at slow speed for a while before running at normal speed just before Clapham North.

Today that didn't happen and it ran at normal speed the entire way. Not sure if that means the problem is resolved or not. The TFL status page implies not fixed and that it's still ongoing.

 

[bramling]

Yesterday (Tues) the train I was on departed Stockwell southbound, and came to an emergency stop. After a delay it then proceeded at slow speed for a while before running at normal speed just before Clapham North.

Today that didn't happen and it ran at normal speed the entire way. Not sure if that means the problem is resolved or not. The TFL status page implies not fixed and that it's still ongoing.

It has been intermittent, so not all trains are affected. Some are losing communication entirely and having to re-establish, others are having the brakes come on briefly but manage to get through, whilst other are unaffected. Various things have been tried to try and deal with the problem, I’m not sure what effect if any this has had.

 

[Tom B]

As said above, the communications have been abysmal. But this seems to be a continuing trend; any time there are issues which go on beyond a 'straightforward' failure (something breaks, service suspended, reinstated a little while later and then delays continue for a few hours/until close of traffic) it seems that nobody in LUL has the influence or will to do this.

It needn't be expensive, nor complicated.

• give people rough information to plan their journey home that evening, or tomorrow - put this on poster boards at stations so people leaving know what service will be operated tomorrow. by doing so, you can try to 'head off' a certain number of passengers (those who are making non-essential journeys, or work-from-home-ers who can choose to not go in) so that a bit more space is available for those who have to travel.
• boards at the entrance to stations with a warning that the service is extremely poor, and giving details of other routes (e.g. "take bus 307 to Oakwood for the Piccadilly line") - again, trying to move people who have an option, elsewhere.
• liaise with bus operators to strengthen connecting/alternative services
• ensure there are appropriate staff in place - not leaving stations single manned, with only a cleaner and a motorman on the platform (both being swarmed by passengers wanting info whilst they were trying to get somewhere)
• advise people what the medium- to long-term plan is - can services be expected to run tomorrow, or will they remain disrupted for the rest of the week? what is being done and who is taking responsibility?
• send out mailshots to people who habitually use the service (where available through Oyster/CPC systems) to directly inform them

Unfortunately, LUL seems unable to deal with any sort of long-term failure other than shrug its institutional shoulders and tell people to turn up and hope for the best but have no expectation of being able to get anywhere. Reminiscent of the situation when a large number of trains were out of service with no shoegear (manufactured by nuns in a remote commune in outer mongolia, or a similar excuse)... or when the roof fell in at Highgate and trains were stuck unable to go out... or indeed on the Picc with the leaf fall issues causing wheelflats a few years ago - it simply drags on without any realistic information or updates about when the service will resume.

 

[Jimbo12345]

Normal service resuming so the issue appears fixed.

 

[Taunton]

As said above, the communications have been abysmal. But this seems to be a continuing trend; any time there are issues which go on beyond a 'straightforward' failure (something breaks, service suspended, reinstated a little while later and then delays continue for a few hours/until close of traffic) it seems that nobody in LUL has the influence or will to do this.

This does seem to be from the Publicity and PR teams being infiltrated by modern teachings that in public communications you only ever write about positives. This of course is completely at variance with giving assistance instructions when there has been an operational failure.

It's really just a variant of what we have long had - fare increases are "Fares Revised", whereas a couple of reductions are "Fares Slashed". It moves on through constant disruption statements of "tickets are accepted on buses ...", etc, where nowadays we don't have tickets, and use of Oyster/Contactless on said alternative buses most certainly charges everyone an additional bus fare.

 

[nline300]

Normal service resuming so the issue appears fixed.

Where did you find this?

 

[PBarnesHST]

Where did you find this?

Status on TfL site has changed to ‘an earlier signal failure at Stockwell’ and has removed the please avoid the northern line message

 

[bramling]

Status on TfL site has changed to ‘an earlier signal failure at Stockwell’ and has removed the please avoid the northern line message

The normal timetable is in the process of being introduced.

From what I understand, things were done last night, but it still isn’t understood what the root cause was, just that something done last night seems to have cured it.

So long as problems don’t resurface, I’d imagine the line should back to a reasonably normal service by today’s evening peak.

Still seemingly zero attempt by TFL to keep users informed of what’s going on.

 

[PBarnesHST]

The normal timetable is in the process of being introduced.

Just out of interest is it going to be a big lift to get the normal timetable back on track?

By that I mean are a lot of trains/crews displaced by the temporary timetable, or has the reduced service generally meant that most of the stock and drivers are in depots ready and waiting?

 

[AndroidBango]

We're down to 'Minor Delays' now, according to TFL...

 

[bramling]

Just out of interest is it going to be a big lift to get the normal timetable back on track?

By that I mean are a lot of trains/crews displaced by the temporary timetable, or has the reduced service generally meant that most of the stock and drivers are in depots ready and waiting?

Not massively, as it’s a process of matching drivers to a train as the late turns book on. So either they take over one of the trains already running, or bring one out of a depot/siding as close to where they’re meant to be as possible. So as the day goes by more and more trains should be where they’re timetabled to be.

A lot depends on who is on duty though, as this isn’t something that’s done often, so some will be more experienced at what to do than others, which can make a difference to how smoothly it all goes.

Providing nothing else goes wrong I’d expect a fairly reasonably evening peak.

 

[Tom B]

This does seem to be from the Publicity and PR teams being infiltrated by modern teachings that in public communications you only ever write about positives. This of course is completely at variance with giving assistance instructions when there has been an operational failure.

It's really just a variant of what we have long had - fare increases are "Fares Revised", whereas a couple of reductions are "Fares Slashed". It moves on through constant disruption statements of "tickets are accepted on buses ...", etc, where nowadays we don't have tickets, and use of Oyster/Contactless on said alternative buses most certainly charges everyone an additional bus fare.

It's also maddening, when a statement which is unhelpful, untrue or missing is put out. Better to hear the bad news, grumble a bit and sigh and take an alternative route, than them pretend everything is fine, and be faced with the reality when you get to the station.

 

[bramling]

It's also maddening, when a statement which is unhelpful, untrue or missing is put out. Better to hear the bad news, grumble a bit and sigh and take an alternative route, than them pretend everything is fine, and be faced with the reality when you get to the station.

Yes exactly. All TFL had to do is put out a release along the lines of
* this is what is happening
* this is what we think the cause is (or we honestly don’t yet know)
* this is the effect on the service
* these are the times when we are going to suspend to try and give engineers time to work
* this is when we think we might have it sorted by
* these are the alternatives we’ve arranged
* TFL are sorry for the inconvenience.

Instead … total silence.

 

[Tom B]

Quite. The world has changed since 2019 and many office workers are on a 'work from home' arrangement for part of the week and would probably welcome the opportunity to have their days of not going to work, as being ones where the service is shafted.

The other difficulty is that it's fine to say "check before you travel" but if you are catching one of the first trains (say, in the first hour of service) you won't necessarily find out the situation early enough, if you wait until the start of traffic.

Given that the service was effectively almost suspended (a 20 minute headway with trains which are too full to allow passengers on is not a service) then a part suspension through the affected area, at least during off peak times, could have enabled more of a service to run.

I'm sure that lessons will be learned it'll be swept under the carpet though.

 

[Thirteen]

The communications surrounding this has been really poor. Why have TfL not put on additional (rail replacement) buses given that less than half the scheduled trains seem to be in operation? It also seems as if though the entire line is being used as collateral damage so to speak - I assume it's been looked into and ruled not feasible but what's preventing a near-normal service operating on the Battersea/Charing Cross/North London branches?

Rail Replacement buses can't be pulled out of thin air.

 

[700007]

Rail Replacement buses can't be pulled out of thin air.

TfL can and have issued e-rail at short notice for when there is major service disruption. There are usually sufficient buses/drivers spare from a combination of companies in London to assist with the operation of a relatively basic rail replacement bus service or even just 'extra' buses on parallel routes like the 155. See the story with the tube strike last month - yes the strike was known well in advance but TfL do not book buses until very close to the day in the event they get cancelled, is my understanding.