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Most people know if they’re the type of person who would use a seat reservation or not. Making it easier to opt out of having one would solve most of the issue IMO.
Personally I would never pick one unless I was certain of the times I was travelling and am boarding at a terminus as it’s exceedingly rare I use the reservation in any other circumstance.
This is the reason I've often not used a seat reservation because I didn't want it in the first place, on Scotrail I had to reserve a seat to be able to reserve a bike slot. However the seat reservation wasn't near the bike and of course I wanted to be sitting beside the bike. I was checking the Scotrail site now and it seems even without a bike reservation you have to reserve a seat since I can't see an option to untick the option.
It's not necessarily the best system, but maybe useful to think about how it works in Japan. For most trains with reservations there are some carriages that are entirely with reserved seats and then (a smaller number of carriages) that are completely unreserved. The reserved carriages are priced slightly higher than the unreserved, with a clear understanding that they want to encourage you to reserve your seat, and if you decide to change trains to change your reservation (which is super easy, and available right up until the point of departure from every station). And if you don't buy a reserved ticket, or choose to use it on another train without changing the reservation, you will have to travel in the unreserved carriage, no matter how packed it may turn out to be. There are no indications on seats about the extent of the reservations - and seats may have quite a lot of different reservations on it during the journey. You are not allowed to change seats on the train if a reservation doesn't seem to be taken up (and indeed you have no way of knowing anyway).
The system strongly incentivises getting reservations, and changing reservations when not needed. In the most capacity constrained routes reservations are (genuinely) compulsory.
I am like a few others on here, I hate having a reservation and I pick my seat as I get on the train. Whether charging for reservations is the best way forward, I'm not sure, but something that should be much easier to implement, is letting people 'release' their reservation. Such a thing not only benefits those who don't want reserved seats at all, but also those who may be travelling on open tickets and thus choose another train, or those caught up in disruption, may wish to release their reservation and move it to another train.
I am like a few others on here, I hate having a reservation and I pick my seat as I get on the train. Whether charging for reservations is the best way forward, I'm not sure, but something that should be much easier to implement, is letting people 'release' their reservation. Such a thing not only benefits those who don't want reserved seats at all, but also those who may be travelling on open tickets and thus choose another train, or those caught up in disruption, may wish to release their reservation and move it to another train.
I've long thought that one positive aspect of charging would be that it would nudge you to do this. If a reservation cost £2 but if cancelled you got £1 back, many people would.
If the LNER fares model is extended, they ultimately will effectively be compulsory for longer journeys, but you are right that there are too many short distance reservations on those same trains. When I have been from London to Milton Keynes on Avanti units the number of London to Milton Keynes reservations seems unnecessary.
Go the Dutch way and not bother with reservations altogether. When you have passengers in need on crowded trains passengers are then forced to exercise human decency and not hide behind 'I have a reservation'.
Go the Dutch way and not bother with reservations altogether. When you have passengers in need on crowded trains passengers are then forced to exercise human decency and not hide behind 'I have a reservation'.
Generally on long distance trains people in that position will prefer to reserve themselves, probably in conjunction with a passenger assistance booking. It is unlikely that the stress of a "free for all" is going to be better for such people.
I’d go for counted places for all advance tickets (with the system deliberately turning a semi-blind eye to “bulges” over very short distances) with reservations charged extra but linked to the ticket number. As a concession - free reservations with disabled and senior railcards perhaps (nothing to do with the fact that I’m getting horribly close to the latter!)
I’d go for counted places for all advance tickets (with the system deliberately turning a semi-blind eye to “bulges” over very short distances) with reservations charged extra but linked to the ticket number. As a concession - free reservations with disabled and senior railcards perhaps (nothing to do with the fact that I’m getting horribly close to the latter!)
Because it made it more difficult to obtain a seat reservation and, as a consequence, it often ended up being a stampede at Kings Cross. Boarding at somewhere like York or Peterborough- forget it.
It also caused more arguments ("I've paid for that seat!") especially where reservations hadn't been put out for whatever reason.
There was also the issue that the people paying the highest fares were expected to pay extra to guarantee a seat.
As a concession - free reservations with disabled and senior railcards perhaps (nothing to do with the fact that I’m getting horribly close to the latter!)
Everyone else should have to pay, but you should still get the thing for free because [reason]?
I genuinely don't understand this forum's obsession with making it harder to get a seat reservation. Long distance train travel is already quite miserable enough and quite expensive enough without giving the industry more reasons to charge more for a worse service.
There's no way I'd regularly undertake long distance train travel in the UK without a seat reservation. And my response to the idea of paying extra, on top of already eye-watering fares, starts with a curse and ends in 'off'.
Generally on long distance trains people in that position will prefer to reserve themselves, probably in conjunction with a passenger assistance booking. It is unlikely that the stress of a "free for all" is going to be better for such people.
Don’t link assistance with the need for reservation. My wife won’t - won’t - travel long distance without a guaranteed seat. She has no need of assistance, but following back surgery cannot stand for long periods.
When travelling out of Kings Cross after a service meltdown last year, on our booked train, she took two days to recover from having to stand/sit on the floor.
For whatever reason, LNER announced that reservations applied, didn’t activate them, and then had 3 trainloads on a single unit. The guard was overwhelmed, and chose to focus on people standing in first with standard tickets rather than actually deal with the crush load.
Blaming people travelling on an intercity service, at intercity prices, for wanting to be able to be confident of being able to sit, is to put the responsibility in the wrong place altogether.
What about when travelling with children? What about if you have some mobility issues- maybe you're just not as fit as you were when you were 30- but not enough to need the assistance?
I am (luckily and thankfully) fully able-bodied and equipped with extremely sharp elbows when needed. But when I'm travelling with my kids it's a different story. The Euston stampede was genuinely terrifying when I was travelling with my eldest when she was little.
The idea of going through that every time I take a long-distance train? I think I'll take the car.
In my long experience of using trains out of Euston, all that happens is that the fittest people with the sharpest elbows get a seat and bugger everybody else. If you're slow then you're flat out of luck. Nobody will stand up for you, heads down in the Evening Standard and pretend they haven't noticed. Just about tolerable for a 30-minute commute into the shires, but the idea of facing that for a five-hour journey to Edinburgh? No thank you.
At least in the aviation industry you are still guaranteed a seat even if you don't pay the seat tax. On the railway you'll be stood in a vestibule that smells of raw sewage.
What about when travelling with children? What about if you have some mobility issues- maybe you're just not as fit as you were when you were 30- but not enough to need the assistance?
Two answers that absolutely miss the point. Surplus reservations restricting capacity are a modern phenomenon, largely caused by the abuse of advance tickets by the industry, and compounded their heedlessness over the cost of not prioritising freeing them up.
As for the railcard discount, every long distance journey I’ve ever done with kids has been costed against the car alternative and the extra cost justified on that basis. Adding reservation fees just undermines the case for rail. And, if introduced, it is also a backhanded price rise
Are they, though? Really? Anecdote is not the same as data.
My experience with LNER is that their trains aren't "full of unclaimed reservations". On the busy trains to Edinburgh most seats are taken. What you might see is, for instance, "Kings Cross to Darlington" occupied, "Darlington to Newcastle" not occupied, then "Newcastle to Edinburgh" occupied again.
What if I'm just not that fit? Or if I'm travelling with my 65-year-old mum who has a gammy leg? Shall I arrange assistance instead? Are you sure that's a good idea?
Carrier bag fees show exactly what will happen. It's amazing how quickly we went from a carrier bag costing 5p to the situation now where a single paper carrier bag, one that will dissolve as soon as the BBC forecasts drizzle later, costs 50p-£1.
You don't think the railway wouldn't introduce demand-based pricing for reservations? LNER already seem to be acting like a Temu Ryanair but at least Ryanair guarantee you *a* seat. That'll be £200 for your LNER special and another £25 for your reservation please. Oh, the charge is based on customer demand.
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Don’t link assistance with the need for reservation. My wife won’t - won’t - travel long distance without a guaranteed seat. She has no need of assistance, but following back surgery cannot stand for long periods.
The attitude seems to be that "I don't need a reservation [because I am able-bodied and have sharp elbows] so they should be abolished".
Being disabled, requiring assistance, and requiring a seat are all different things. I have a trapped nerve which means I can't stand for long periods of time without it hurting. I'm not disabled, I don't need assistance, I would be in moderate discomfort after standing for long periods but I wouldn't be in agony and I certainly wouldn't seek to turf someone out of a priority seat for it.
All a seat reservation fee would be is a price increase, and heaven knows train travel is quite expensive enough already.
Would I book assistance to save £10 and a lot of hassle? Yeah, probably. Should I be incentivised to do it? Probably not.
Two answers that absolutely miss the point. Surplus reservations restricting capacity are a modern phenomenon, largely caused by the abuse of advance tickets by the industry, and compounded their heedlessness over the cost of not prioritising freeing them up.
Advance tickets aren't the problem with them, as people with Advance tickets will likely use the booked train and seat. The big problem is fake compulsory reservations, but secondarily you just getting one with a ticket by default.
As for the railcard discount, every long distance journey I’ve ever done with kids has been costed against the car alternative and the extra cost justified on that basis. Adding reservation fees just undermines the case for rail. And, if introduced, it is also a backhanded price rise
My experience with LNER is that their trains aren't "full of unclaimed reservations". On the busy trains to Edinburgh most seats are taken. What you might see is, for instance, "Kings Cross to Darlington" occupied, "Darlington to Newcastle" not occupied, then "Newcastle to Edinburgh" occupied again.
LNER's price hike when they moved to single-fare pricing makes walk up fares less affordable than other routes, particularly the WCML, so it's not surprising that more would be claimed on LNER. The fares "trial" even more so.
What if I'm just not that fit? Or if I'm travelling with my 65-year-old mum who has a gammy leg? Shall I arrange assistance instead? Are you sure that's a good idea?
Carrier bag fees show exactly what will happen. It's amazing how quickly we went from a carrier bag costing 5p to the situation now where a single paper carrier bag, one that will dissolve as soon as the BBC forecasts drizzle later, costs 50p-£1.
I am wholeheartedly in support of this having happened. The waste reduction it has caused is significant. You never see littering of carrier bags like you used to, for one. Purchase some good quality reusable bags and take them to the supermarket with you - no problem and no need to pay.
You don't think the railway wouldn't introduce demand-based pricing for reservations? LNER already seem to be acting like a Temu Ryanair but at least Ryanair guarantee you *a* seat. That'll be £200 for your LNER special and another £25 for your reservation please. Oh, the charge is based on customer demand.
Actually I do often reserve so I can ensure a priority seat with a window view. And I don't think £2 per long distance journey leg (i.e. out/return, not per train) is an unreasonable charge for one.
I don't think most people would go through the hassle of booked assistance (and it would be hassle for most people) just to save a tenner for a family of five when the fares add up to five hundred quid. It's noise level. It's a sandwich or a coffee each.
Are they, though? Really? Anecdote is not the same as data.
My experience with LNER is that their trains aren't "full of unclaimed reservations". On the busy trains to Edinburgh most seats are taken. What you might see is, for instance, "Kings Cross to Darlington" occupied, "Darlington to Newcastle" not occupied, then "Newcastle to Edinburgh" occupied again.
In fairness, I think @Bletchleyite is on to something about unused reservations - they are common on LNER out of King's Cross, especially for travel to Stevenage (problem goes away December!) and Peterborough. My experience of changing plans is that it is very easy to reserve an additional seat, but much harder to cancel out the previous reservation.
I assume - perhaps one of those with LNER experience could comment - that this is semi-deliberate as a way of creating buffer capacity, but the effect is appalling and undermines the credibility of reservations.
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Advance tickets aren't the problem with them, as people with Advance tickets will likely use the booked train and seat. The big problem is fake compulsory reservations, but secondarily you just getting one with a ticket by default.
If my wife is anything to go by, it is nothing to do with pride - it simply doesn't occur to her to consider herself "disabled". And as a matter of social policy, I'm not convinced that broadening the definition of disability in that way is wise - or that ascribing special treatment to minor disabilities is in reality inclusive.
National Express charged £5 when they had East Coast, which with inflation would be about £9 now. I'd expect any fee to start at £10 per reservation.
So suddenly you're adding £20 to the cost of a return journey.
For it to have the objective you seek, the fee would have to be dissuasive. Way back in 2001 when I collected trolleys at Tesco I found that people would leave their £1 coin in the trolley and leave it, especially if the weather was bad. It was a nice little earner from customers who felt that £1 was a decent price to pay for not having to get soaking wet returning their trolley.
In fairness, I think @Bletchleyite is on to something about unused reservations - they are common on LNER out of King's Cross, especially for travel to Stevenage (problem goes away December!) and Peterborough.
When travelling on a Britrail pass I use the GWR website to get reservations for what I anticipate my itinerary will be. There is no way of cancelling them when I know my plans are going to change. There should be a way of cancelling them.
The compulsory reservations flag is the real issue, though. To purchase a ticket on an LNER train from, say, Darlington to Newcastle you must have a reservation. So you get a reservation, even though you'll probably just get on whichever carriage is closest to you at Darlington and you probably won't use it.
As for how much of an issue this is, I'm not sure. The seat which is reserved from London to Peterborough will probably then have a subsequent reservation from Peterborough to somewhere else. And if it doesn't then anyone can sit in it anyway.
If you keep the compulsory reservations flag then you are simply pushing through a mandatory fares rise by charging for a reservation. But if you get rid of the compulsory reservations flag and make reservations voluntary then the problem goes away, so there's no justification for a fee.
Given the reliability of reservation systems (not just IT glitches, but short-forming, wrong set, wrong direction etc) and the difficulties in enforcing reservations, charging just won't fly.
It is true that actually making them compulsory will cause them to generally be occupied. I suspect occupation is high on London-Newcastle/Edinburgh on both LNER and Lumo for that sort of reason - because while reservations aren't compulsory on the train itself, all affordable tickets require reservation.
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The premise of the thread is how you solve it - charge for them (and I would suggest a partial refund for releasing them, and perhaps something active asking you if you want it, e.g. an in app notification with a simple tap to release the reservation). Then only people who actually want them will pay for them.
Don’t link assistance with the need for reservation. My wife won’t - won’t - travel long distance without a guaranteed seat. She has no need of assistance, but following back surgery cannot stand for long periods.
When travelling out of Kings Cross after a service meltdown last year, on our booked train, she took two days to recover from having to stand/sit on the floor.
For whatever reason, LNER announced that reservations applied, didn’t activate them, and then had 3 trainloads on a single unit. The guard was overwhelmed, and chose to focus on people standing in first with standard tickets rather than actually deal with the crush load.
Blaming people travelling on an intercity service, at intercity prices, for wanting to be able to be confident of being able to sit, is to put the responsibility in the wrong place altogether.
Would it not be possible to travel on a different / later service in that situation? Clearly that’s not always going to viable, but if unable to stand then being tied down to a particular service is risky.
I won’t stand on a train except as an absolute last resort, if I’m not going to sit down on a particular service then I’ll endeavour to travel on another.
I won’t stand on a train except as an absolute last resort, if I’m not going to sit down on a particular service then I’ll endeavour to travel on another.
Unfortunately when you've got an Advance that's not possible. In my view it should be, though - that your seat reservation won't be honoured should count as a cancellation.
Unfortunately when you've got an Advance that's not possible. In my view it should be, though - that your seat reservation won't be honoured should count as a cancellation.
Would it not be possible to travel on a different / later service in that situation? Clearly that’s not always going to viable, but if unable to stand then being tied down to a particular service is risky.
I won’t stand on a train except as an absolute last resort, if I’m not going to sit down on a particular service then I’ll endeavour to travel on another.
If I remember which trip it was, we were constrained by timings at the end of the journey - quite apart from taking the bird in the hand on a day when the ECML had collapsed
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