Speculation- New TPE routes or extensions?

[Grumpy]

Hi there. I’ve just watched a video from Brian Bancroft where he’s said there’s rumours/possibilities that TPE may be getting route extensions and or new routes. Does anyone know what these would be?

Never mind new routes or extensions, they should contract until they reach a size their managers can manage.
They now don't provide a direct service between Scarborough and West Yorkshire, probably it's biggest source of visitors. Scarborough-York should be passed over to Northern and operated as a through service from West Yorkshire e.g. as an extension of Blackpool-Yorks.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The only useful route I can think of is a faster service from Blackpool to Yorkshire. Something like: Blackpool, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley, Brighouse, Leeds, York, Middlesbrough?

Perhaps an extension down to Birmingham from Manchester might be useful to foster Cheshire/Staffordshire-Yorkshire connections.

Other more romantic ideas:

Nottingham to Glasgow via Settle
Bradford to Euston via ManVic

 

[Bletchleyite]

They will after the platform extensions at the airport.

Interesting. Though equally I'm not sure there's the demand for ten coaches. 7 seems a bit of a sweet spot just as it would likely be for XC (and was for years). With enough units it'd give interesting options, though, like going to both Glasgow and Edinburgh every hour.

 

[lrbvoyager]

The only useful route I can think of is a faster service from Blackpool to Yorkshire. Something like: Blackpool, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley, Brighouse, Leeds, York, Middlesbrough?

Perhaps an extension down to Birmingham from Manchester might be useful to foster Cheshire/Staffordshire-Yorkshire connections.

Other more romantic ideas:

Nottingham to Glasgow via Settle
Bradford to Euston via ManVic

Would settle have the capacity for Glasgow to Nottingham services?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

I've long thought that the Manchester Airport - Scotland routes would fit really well under Avanti with the 80x stock. Either 5/6/7 car 807s, or more 805s (which gives scope for diversions as required but also happily runs on electric all day too if needed). This would then put the whole WCML under a single operator and some quite decent savings could be made, as well as uplifts to passenger experience with tickets and so on.

My only problem with that is that I find the 397s a much better ride than the 80x series. With the 897s being produced and being nearly identical to the 397 (despite power modes) would it be possible to construct coaches to lengthen the existing 397s to 7-8 first class coaches that would includes an onboard shop instead of trolley service? TPE will be ordering new trains after TRU to replace 185s. Could it be possible they order more of the 397s just in bi-mode form?

 

[Zomboid]

Would settle have the capacity for Glasgow to Nottingham services?

Skipton to Leeds was the bottleneck I think

 

[The Planner]

Skipton to Leeds was the bottleneck I think

You'll run close with some of the block sections on the S&C I expect.

 

[stevieinselby]

Would settle have the capacity for Glasgow to Nottingham services?

The limiting factors on the route are the single-track approach to Carlisle, the single-track section over Ribblehead, and the busy suburban section between Skipton and Leeds. If Glasgow to Nottingham is to be a fast service calling at only the key stations between Skipton and Carlisle, and so in addition to the existing Northern service, then it could be a struggle to path more than a few services without disrupting the freight paths or getting caught behind a Northern stopper (as there is nowhere sensible to overtake, just a couple of very slow goods loops). And how much capacity is there north of Carlisle?

Of course, pathing and capacity become less of a concern if you're looking at just joining existing Glasgow–Dumfries–Carlisle, Carlisle–Leeds and Leeds–Nottingham services together into one very long run, but then you're looking at a service that will be unattractively slow for end-to-end journeys and is just begging to spread delays across a wider network.

 

[lrbvoyager]

The limiting factors on the route are the single-track approach to Carlisle, the single-track section over Ribblehead, and the busy suburban section between Skipton and Leeds. If Glasgow to Nottingham is to be a fast service calling at only the key stations between Skipton and Carlisle, and so in addition to the existing Northern service, then it could be a struggle to path more than a few services without disrupting the freight paths or getting caught behind a Northern stopper (as there is nowhere sensible to overtake, just a couple of very slow goods loops). And how much capacity is there north of Carlisle?

Of course, pathing and capacity become less of a concern if you're looking at just joining existing Glasgow–Dumfries–Carlisle, Carlisle–Leeds and Leeds–Nottingham services together into one very long run, but then you're looking at a service that will be unattractively slow for end-to-end journeys and is just begging to spread delays across a wider network.

I would guess there is plenty of paths north of Carlisle considering LNER manage a train every hour during diversionary periods.

 

[stevieinselby]

I would guess there is plenty of paths north of Carlisle considering LNER manage a train every hour during diversionary periods.

I don't know the answer to this, it's a genuine question, but could it be that some freight paths are suspended during times when the ECML is closed and LNER trains are diverted via Carstairs and Carlisle? For an odd weekend and with enough forward notice, I'm sure that kind of change could be accommodated relatively easily, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it could be made a permanent change without reducing freight paths.

 

[quantinghome]

The limiting factors on the route are the single-track approach to Carlisle, the single-track section over Ribblehead, and the busy suburban section between Skipton and Leeds.

The single track sections aren't very long though. There's a long way to go before they would hit capacity.

If Glasgow to Nottingham is to be a fast service calling at only the key stations between Skipton and Carlisle, and so in addition to the existing Northern service, then it could be a struggle to path more than a few services without disrupting the freight paths or getting caught behind a Northern stopper (as there is nowhere sensible to overtake, just a couple of very slow goods loops).

The current passenger service is once every two hours (yes, there are the Lancasters as well, but they're off before Settle). You would have to be running a very fast service for it to catch the stopper.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Post GBR I would merge Northern and TPE and re-organise some of the services with Liverpool to Norwich split and the Liverpool - Nottingham section transferred to Northern, Airport to Scotland services transferred to the West Coast division and some services transferred through extensions to Merseyrail (Ormskirk to Preston, Headbolt Lane to Wigan, Ellesmere Port to Helsby). Northern Express (or whatever you want to call them) would run ‘intercity’ services on most of the former transpennine routes with additional 800 series trains ordered to cover all Northern Intercity routes and 185s cascaded to other routes.

I would simplify and reduce the number of franchises to create the new ‘divisions’ (not fussed what they are called) but use existing TOC areas as the basis for these initially to reduce disruption. Northern and TPE would be a good example of this where a substantial proportion of their routes are shared so there would be opportunities for rationalisation and examples of routes where it would make sense to have one operator running stopping and express services over the same route. A rule of thumb I would apply is if a route has more of its length covered by another operator/division than shared with other routes from the same operator/division it should look to be transferred. Transfer of Manchester Airport to Scotland services to West Coast and Liverpool to Nottingham to Northern (inc TPE) would be examples of this.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The single track sections aren't very long though. There's a long way to go before they would hit capacity.

The current passenger service is once every two hours (yes, there are the Lancasters as well, but they're off before Settle). You would have to be running a very fast service for it to catch the stopper.

Isn't the linespeed from Skipton to Carlisle still 60mph max anyway?
I'd have thought the key problem with extending S&C services beyond Leeds to somewhere like Nottingham would be the risk of transferring delays from those different axes out of Leeds, and getting the paths in and out of Leeds on those "legs" to line up. In any case you'd probably need to re-route the Nottingham leg via Wakefield Westgate (as per the old Northern Connect plans) otherwise you have to cross the entire throat at Leeds. It's one thing doing this to link a single pair of services on a Sunday, but doing it every other hour all day would be another matter.

In any case it probably wouldn't be a TPE (or whatever TPE becomes) service anyway.

Never mind new routes or extensions, they should contract until they reach a size their managers can manage.
They now don't provide a direct service between Scarborough and West Yorkshire, probably it's biggest source of visitors. Scarborough-York should be passed over to Northern and operated as a through service from West Yorkshire e.g. as an extension of Blackpool-Yorks.

Isn't the current Scarborough situation due to the ongoing works on the route through Huddersfield (and between Leeds & York) rather than TPE being incapable of operating?

As for the oft-mooted idea of a Blackpool to Scarborough service, is there really a huge amount of demand for this? Or is it just nostalgia for the 1990s or a romantic notion of linking the prime resort towns on each coast?

 

[stevieinselby]

The single track sections aren't very long though. There's a long way to go before they would hit capacity.

The current passenger service is once every two hours (yes, there are the Lancasters as well, but they're off before Settle). You would have to be running a very fast service for it to catch the stopper.

With up to 10 stations that I would expect the fast trains to skip (after Skipton, calling only at Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby before Carlisle), you're looking at a gain of 25–30 minutes. Add in the Lancasters, which you will also gain on, and then factor in that there are only a limited number of paths between Leeds and Skipton where you can weave between the frequent Metro stoppers, maybe just 2 paths an hour where you get a clear run (including the existing Carlisle and Lancaster services)?, and your options for running a fast service are looking a lot more limited. Now factor in half a dozen freight trains each way along the full length of the line (at least from Hellifield up to Carlisle) plus a few more that run to one of the quarries or sidings in the Ribblehead area, and you'll start to see why it might not be as easy as you first think. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you'll probably struggle to get more than half a dozen trains a day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Post GBR I would merge Northern and TPE and re-organise some of the services with Liverpool to Norwich split and the Liverpool - Nottingham section transferred to Northern, Airport to Scotland services transferred to the West Coast division and some services transferred through extensions to Merseyrail (Ormskirk to Preston, Headbolt Lane to Wigan, Ellesmere Port to Helsby). Northern Express (or whatever you want to call them) would run ‘intercity’ services on most of the former transpennine routes with additional 800 series trains ordered to cover all Northern Intercity routes and 185s cascaded to other routes.

TransPennine Express as a brand dates back to *at least* the 1980s and is quite a strong brand and thus I'd think unlikely to go away (particularly as it isn't "poisoned" unlike some other railway brands might be). It wouldn't surprise me to see it perhaps applied slightly more widely e.g. to the Liverpool-Nottingham/Norwich which certainly does cross the Pennines, though really the Manchester-Scotland would be better under the same brand as the WCML because they don't cross the Pennines and classically never carried that brand until the TPE TOC took over the services. (Before that they operated under the CrossCountry brand, though I think we would probably all agree that brand is thoroughly poisoned).

 

[Iskra]

The only useful route I can think of is a faster service from Blackpool to Yorkshire. Something like: Blackpool, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley, Brighouse, Leeds, York, Middlesbrough?

Perhaps an extension down to Birmingham from Manchester might be useful to foster Cheshire/Staffordshire-Yorkshire connections.

Other more romantic ideas:

Nottingham to Glasgow via Settle
Bradford to Euston via ManVic

Considering Bradford to London is already well-served. I’d say Bradford to Edinburgh via Leeds and the ECML would be a better prospect.

 

[A S Leib]

Considering Bradford to London is already well-served. I’d say Bradford to Edinburgh via Leeds and the ECML would be a better prospect.

Given that I think Northern Connect was meant to include a Bradford to Manchester Airport service at one point and the Newcastle to Manchester Airport services aren't returning (yet), I'd suggest extending that to there, but that seems like a service which would be frequently delayed or cut short.

 

[lrbvoyager]

TransPennine Express as a brand dates back to *at least* the 1980s and is quite a strong brand and thus I'd think unlikely to go away (particularly as it isn't "poisoned" unlike some other railway brands might be). It wouldn't surprise me to see it perhaps applied slightly more widely e.g. to the Liverpool-Nottingham/Norwich which certainly does cross the Pennines, though really the Manchester-Scotland would be better under the same brand as the WCML because they don't cross the Pennines and classically never carried that brand until the TPE TOC took over the services. (Before that they operated under the CrossCountry brand, though I think we would probably all agree that brand is thoroughly poisoned).

Would you say this includes tpes Liverpool to Glasgow services via Preston? I think it would make it a lot simpler is Avanti operated there London to Scotland services aswell as tpes current services from Manchester airport and Liverpool to Edinburgh and Glasgow. It would make it a lot easier during disruption as you would have to be worried about ticket acceptance however with the recent storms etc I would say TPE and Avanti handled them very well on the west coast.

 

[Zomboid]

Logically the Liverpool/ Manchester to Glasgow/ Edinburgh services sit with the WCML operation more than the Transpennine operation (assuming they're different things in future). And the Edinburgh - Newcastle services are more of an ECML (or perhaps Northern/ Scotrail) thing.

Though on the other hand, they're the kind of things that wouldn't be super high priority for a London focused operation, which the ECML/ WCML long distance operator inevitably would be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you say this includes tpes Liverpool to Glasgow services via Preston? I think it would make it a lot simpler is Avanti operated there London to Scotland services aswell as tpes current services from Manchester airport and Liverpool to Edinburgh and Glasgow. It would make it a lot easier during disruption as you would have to be worried about ticket acceptance however with the recent storms etc I would say TPE and Avanti handled them very well on the west coast.

Liverpool-Glasgow is part of the same service group as Manchester-Glasgow, yes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2025 ==

Logically the Liverpool/ Manchester to Glasgow/ Edinburgh services sit with the WCML operation more than the Transpennine operation (assuming they're different things in future). And the Edinburgh - Newcastle services are more of an ECML (or perhaps Northern/ Scotrail) thing.

Edinburgh-Newcastle is more for operational convenience than anything else (getting sets to a specific depot). Otherwise, what would make more sense would be an hourly semifast EMU service from Edinburgh to Newcastle with more stops, possibly even replacing stuff like the Chathill Flyer. Given that Northern's operation up there is all DMU, ScotRail would probably be the best operator for such a thing.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Blackpool to Scarboro has been mentioned on this thread and it would be a terrible idea. The service regularly picks up delays on route so having the reliability to terminate it at York in P7 rather than go through platform 3/5 at York where its conflicting with the majority of LNER services. Its just two places that dont need to be connected. To be honest i think it would be better terminated at Leeds if it didnt offer the semi fast through service from Bradford to York.

Once TRU has finished wiring to Leeds-York it would be interesting to see what becomes of this service if Northern (or their equivalent) dont have bimodes for it.

 

[LittleAH]

Never mind new routes or extensions, they should contract until they reach a size their managers can manage.
They now don't provide a direct service between Scarborough and West Yorkshire, probably it's biggest source of visitors. Scarborough-York should be passed over to Northern and operated as a through service from West Yorkshire e.g. as an extension of Blackpool-Yorks.

Yes they do. A quick check on any journey planner in the future shows this. You surely can’t complain about a TOC due to engineering works!

Given that I think Northern Connect was meant to include a Bradford to Manchester Airport service at one point and the Newcastle to Manchester Airport services aren't returning (yet), I'd suggest extending that to there, but that seems like a service which would be frequently delayed or cut short.

A false promise due to great north rail project being an absolute dud. Until capacity in and around Manchester is sorted, it will still be a ball and chain for any operator.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TransPennine Express as a brand dates back to *at least* the 1980s and is quite a strong brand and thus I'd think unlikely to go away (particularly as it isn't "poisoned" unlike some other railway brands might be). It wouldn't surprise me to see it perhaps applied slightly more widely e.g. to the Liverpool-Nottingham/Norwich which certainly does cross the Pennines, though really the Manchester-Scotland would be better under the same brand as the WCML because they don't cross the Pennines and classically never carried that brand until the TPE TOC took over the services. (Before that they operated under the CrossCountry brand, though I think we would probably all agree that brand is thoroughly poisoned).

I'm not sure I'd say the brand isn't "poisoned" as many round here (Huddersfield/Dewsbury area) still remember the 2018 debacle. The TPE brand is only somewhat protected by people mistakenly blaming "bl**dy Northern Rail!" when their TPE service is cancelled!

Services on the Hope Valley only just cross the Pennines, the long distance "Pennine Way" footpath starts adjacent to Edale station!

 

[Llandudno]

Post GBR I would merge Northern and TPE and re-organise some of the services with Liverpool to Norwich split and the Liverpool - Nottingham section transferred to Northern, Airport to Scotland services transferred to the West Coast division and some services transferred through extensions to Merseyrail (Ormskirk to Preston, Headbolt Lane to Wigan, Ellesmere Port to Helsby). Northern Express (or whatever you want to call them) would run ‘intercity’ services on most of the former transpennine routes with additional 800 series trains ordered to cover all Northern Intercity routes and 185s cascaded to other routes.

I would simplify and reduce the number of franchises to create the new ‘divisions’ (not fussed what they are called) but use existing TOC areas as the basis for these initially to reduce disruption. Northern and TPE would be a good example of this where a substantial proportion of their routes are shared so there would be opportunities for rationalisation and examples of routes where it would make sense to have one operator running stopping and express services over the same route. A rule of thumb I would apply is if a route has more of its length covered by another operator/division than shared with other routes from the same operator/division it should look to be transferred. Transfer of Manchester Airport to Scotland services to West Coast and Liverpool to Nottingham to Northern (inc TPE) would be examples of this.

No point giving anymore work/routes to Northern that serve the north west of England, they can’t cover their existing requirements especially at weekends!

At least EMR are reasonably reliable between Nottingham and Liverpool, well certainly from a staffing perspective!

 

[quantinghome]

With up to 10 stations that I would expect the fast trains to skip (after Skipton, calling only at Settle, Kirkby Stephen and Appleby before Carlisle), you're looking at a gain of 25–30 minutes. Add in the Lancasters, which you will also gain on, and then factor in that there are only a limited number of paths between Leeds and Skipton where you can weave between the frequent Metro stoppers, maybe just 2 paths an hour where you get a clear run (including the existing Carlisle and Lancaster services)?, and your options for running a fast service are looking a lot more limited.

You wouldn't see 25-30 minutes gain. Skipton-Carlisle is 87 miles and the stoppers take 2 hours. A 60 mph linespeed gives you about 1h30 as your absolute maximum, ignoring any stops; with the permanent restrictions (e.g. Ribblehead) and three stops you'd looking at a 15 minute improvement, maybe 20 minutes at a push. Of that, you'd see no more than 5 minutes speed up in the 14 miles from Skipton to Settle, so the risk of catching up with a Lancaster service would be extremely low. A hypothetical Leeds-Glasgow intercity service would never need to be more than hourly even with the most optimistic appraisal of demand. The slot between the Skipton stoppers that the Lancaster and Carlisle trains use is there every half hour but only used roughly once an hour. It's all doable. The question is whether there's actually the demand for it.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Logically the Liverpool/ Manchester to Glasgow/ Edinburgh services sit with the WCML operation more than the Transpennine operation (assuming they're different things in future). And the Edinburgh - Newcastle services are more of an ECML (or perhaps Northern/ Scotrail) thing.

I think the Edinburgh-Newcastle services would go to waste under scotrail. The 80x stock TPE operate, whilst not perfect have atleast some form of first class service even if it’s not extensive.

 

[Zomboid]

Who's to say Scotrail wouldn't use 125mph capable rolling stock? They've got HSTs and are getting 222s, they could very well use some kind of electric 125mph unit. They certainly don't presently have enough spare units to add the service to their operations without getting something in.

I would argue that those particular trains don't especially need to have first class though, they're really local stopping services which would probably be a good use for a standard (faster accelerating) 110mph EMU.

 

[lrbvoyager]

Who's to say Scotrail wouldn't use 125mph capable rolling stock? They've got HSTs and are getting 222s, they could very well use some kind of electric 125mph unit. They certainly don't presently have enough spare units to add the service to their operations without getting something in.

I would argue that those particular trains don't especially need to have first class though, they're really local stopping services which would probably be a good use for a standard (faster accelerating) 110mph EMU.

Maybe 350/2? They are 110mph and are capable of working in pairs.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I think the Edinburgh-Newcastle services would go to waste under scotrail. The 80x stock TPE operate, whilst not perfect have atleast some form of first class service even if it’s not extensive.

Why would that route justify first class? It's just a secondary route, not a significant mainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would that route justify first class? It's just a secondary route, not a significant mainline.

It's literally the ECML! But I do get your point, this is a regional service, LNER operate the intercity service.

 

[Charlie978]

I highly doubt that TPE will be taking on any more routes/destinations until the new stock comes in 5/10 years to displace the 185s.

So it then becomes more a question of (assuming the 185s stay in the north) where do they go?

I’d say they stick around for a bit with TPE or whatever it’s become, and operate semi fast services, a bit like Sheffield to Leeds/Hull talked about upthread. I can certainly see them strengthening Hope Valley services, as well as Scarborough-York and Hull-Leeds/Halifax shuttles.